Initial faith and ongoing faith, is a distinction needed between the two to interpret Scripture accurately?

[Dave123]

Regarding OT believers, they were also justified by grace thru faith.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness..before he offered up his son Isaac.

Job believed in a redeemer.

And Jesus, referring to the OT.. said search the scriptures, in them think ye have eternal life.

OT believers were saved, but in promise only. Abraham was credited with righteousness, but it still had to happen (Romans 3:25-26). OT believers who heard and believed the Gospel before the cross, were given the right to become Sons of God, born again (John 1:12-13), but not until Pentecost when they were placed into Christ Jesus with that Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Many people think that the NT begins at Mathew chapter one, but that's still the OT. Matthew Mark, Luke and John are all still the OT up until each records the cross. That why we still see the Levitical system and the Priesthood in place in the Gospels. Many errors, even whole denominations were birthed from that error. Pentecostals and Charismatics and many reformed people both conclude that if the Gospels are the NT, then what happened in Acts must be something more. They both conclude this same idea of more power. While that is true, that power comes from being born again, which OT believers didn't yet have until they were placed into Christ Jesus withe the baptism by/with the Holy Spirit. Strange bedfellows, theologically speaking, but true. The NT begins with the first believers placed into Christ Jesus, the birth of the Church. This baptism with the Holy Spirit baptized them into Christ Jesus. It was owed to them. That's what made them born again and justified, being "placed into" Jesus, the One True Church. The OT heroes died having not received that Promise (Hebrews 11:39-40). They were kept in Abrahams bosom in Hades until Jesus was lifted up (John 3:13-15).

Everything waited for the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, as He said, He must first be glorified, lifted up, then He will send the Holy Spirit. That's what birthed the NT, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that placed the first believers in Christ.

Hades, simply means realm of the spirits. Since the NT was translated into Greek, Hades was the word that best described Sheol from the OT. The idea of Hades comes from Sheol in the OT, not Greek mythology. So, OT Sheol is translated as Hades in the NT. The KJV erroneously translated that same word as 'Hell' in many places. or, as some have noted, that the idea of hell back then was more in line with what we know of Hades today. Anyways, this was one of the errors that the NKJV fixed, or updated.

Here's a link that everyone should have in their library that touched on this and more. I found this about twenty years ago and it was saying many of the things that I was discovering at the same time.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

Galatians 3: 22-29 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[PaulThomson]

If faith came simply by hearing the audible word of God, everyone who heard the word of God would believe. Since both subjectively and objectively we know know this isn't the case, perhaps there is more to hearing.

Neither of us, nor the scriptures, have said that faith comes simply by hearing the word of God. Why have you inserted the word “simply”? When we hear someone give evidence for some claim we do not believe them simply because we heard their claim. But if we do believe their claim, it is because we have heard their claim. We cannot believe a claim that we have neither formulated ourselves nor heard someone else formulate. That is all it seems to me scripture is saying. We need to hear the gospel in order to believe it.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of themthat preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:15 as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

It seems clear to me that Paul is explaining the need for the church ti preach the gospel… because if no one preaches, no one will hear; and unless one hears, one cannot believe; and unless one believes, they cannot call upon His name; and if they do not call upon His name, they cannot be saved. He does not seem to me to be implying anywhere here that some exotic spiritual kind of hearing is required, and some exotic form of spiritual believing is required. Simply hearing a claim does not ever guarantee one will believe it. Why would you assume that it should in the case of the gospel?

Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice. He doesn't say everyone hears My voice. Yet, we know that everyone who was present heard His voice audibly.

Jesus said
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear/listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Everyone who heard Jesus speak heard His voice, but only those who listened nd began to follow him became His sheep. Jesus knew who were His sheep because they were the ones who listened, considered His claims whether they rang true, counted the cost of believing Him and decided to follow Him.

In Romans 1 Paul says he is not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God to those who believe. That power of God in the gospel is His grace exercised to the sheep.

It seems to me that the power of the gospel is that it brings anyone who believes it into a Father-son/daughter relationship with God, which is His grace exercised to sinners to become His sheep. Do you see more that that in the text?

Just as Jesus opened the understanding of the 2 men He walked with on the road to Emmaus and gave them spiritual understanding, in like manner, God opens the understanding of those He saves. He gives them new hearts and spirits, and places His Spirit within them. Further, He writes His law both in their hearts and minds. This is what causes the individual to respond in faith and obedience.

My wife teaches math. She has a knack of breaking down the concepts that slower students do not understand sio that they are able to grasp them for the first time. She opens their understanding. But she does not do anything spooky and supernatural to their brain or mind that removes blockages. She simply explains the concepts more carefully that previous teachers had done. Certainly Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to believers to teach them.and they can respond to His various teachings with either faith or unbelief.but he does not brainwash us to automatically believe whatever He shows us. Otherwise we would all believe exactly the same things.

 

[Cameron143]

Neither of us, nor the scriptures, have said that faith comes simply by hearing the word of God. Why have you inserted the word “simply”? When we hear someone give evidence for some claim we do not believe them simply because we heard their claim. But if we do believe their claim, it is because we have heard their claim. We cannot believe a claim that we have neither formulated ourselves nor heard someone else formulate. That is all it seems to me scripture is saying. We need to hear the gospel in order to believe it.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of themthat preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:15 as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

It seems clear to me that Paul is explaining the need for the church ti preach the gospel… because if no one preaches, no one will hear; and unless one hears, one cannot believe; and unless one believes, they cannot call upon His name; and if they do not call upon His name, they cannot be saved. He does not seem to me to be implying anywhere here that some exotic spiritual kind of hearing is required, and some exotic form of spiritual believing is required. Simply hearing a claim does not ever guarantee one will believe it. Why would you assume that it should in the case of the gospel?


Jesus said
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear/listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Everyone who heard Jesus speak heard His voice, but only those who listened nd began to follow him became His sheep. Jesus knew who were His sheep because they were the ones who listened, considered His claims whether they rang true, counted the cost of believing Him and decided to follow Him.

It seems to me that the power of the gospel is that it brings anyone who believes it into a Father-son/daughter relationship with God, which is His grace exercised to sinners to become His sheep. Do you see more that that in the text?

My wife teaches math. She has a knack of breaking down the concepts that slower students do not understand sio that they are able to grasp them for the first time. She opens their understanding. But she does not do anything spooky and supernatural to their brain or mind that removes blockages. She simply explains the concepts more carefully that previous teachers had done. Certainly Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to believers to teach them.and they can respond to His various teachings with either faith or unbelief.but he does not brainwash us to automatically believe whatever He shows us. Otherwise we would all believe exactly the same things.

You missed the point in a few ways:

First, Jesus didn't say people hear His voice, follow Him, and then become His sheep. He said His sheep hear His voice and follow. One is first a sheep, then hear, then follow.

Second, only those who believe experience the power of the gospel. There is no power exercised towards those who do not believe.

The power of God, which is the exercise of His grace, is necessary to salvation. That's why I introduced audible or natural hearing and the story on the way road to Emmaus. Except God opens the understanding of an individual, they lack the hearing spoken of in Romans 10:17. The very phrase...saved by grace...requires the activity of God and the exercise His power.

 

[PaulThomson]

You missed the point in a few ways:

First, Jesus didn't say people hear His voice, follow Him, and then become His sheep. He said His sheep hear His voice and follow. One is first a sheep, then hear, then follow.

I think you are arbitrarily limiting the sense of Jesus words. Jesus did not say “People become my sheep, and then hear my voice, and then I know them, and then they follow me. There are no sequential adverbs in the text.

If someone is applying to me for a job, and I say, “My employees hear my office briefings and I know each employee, what I expect of them, and they follow my orders. If you are here at 8 am tomorrow, you can start working for me.” The person is not going to become your your employee unless they turn up at 8 am tomorrow. And S/He will not become your employee until they turn up at 8 am. S/He has heard your words, but may decide to do something more preferable tomorrow than take up employment. There is no implication in my words that the applicant is already my employee, and that is why they will turn up at 8 am tomorrow..

Second, only those who believe experience the power of the gospel. There is no power exercised towards those who do not believe.

That is not true. Many people receive healings or are comforted by elements of the gospel message or are convicted of their sin by the gospel message, but choose not to receive Jesus. It is insulting to God to say that there is no power exercised by God toward a person via the gospel, unless God succeeds in bringing the person all the way to conversion .

The power of God, which is the exercise of His grace, is necessary to salvation. That's why I introduced audible or natural hearing and the story on the way road to Emmaus. Except God opens the understanding of an individual, they lack the hearing spoken of in Romans 10:17. The very phrase...saved by grace...requires the activity of God and the exercise His power.

You have divorced Rom. 10:17 from 10: 13-16 and 10:18, where Paul says very clearly that -
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You say tht people who do not believe the gospel "lack the hearing spoken of in Rom. 10:17” However, verses 16 and 18 say that they have heard with the hearing spoken of in v. 17. Your claim contradicts the clear words of Romans 10: 13-18.

 

[wattie]

OT believers were saved, but in promise only. Abraham was credited with righteousness, but it still had to happen (Romans 3:25-26). OT believers who heard and believed the Gospel before the cross, were given the right to become Sons of God, born again (John 1:12-13), but not until Pentecost when they were placed into Christ Jesus with that Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Many people think that the NT begins at Mathew chapter one, but that's still the OT. Matthew Mark, Luke and John are all still the OT up until each records the cross. That why we still see the Levitical system and the Priesthood in place in the Gospels. Many errors, even whole denominations were birthed from that error. Pentecostals and Charismatics and many reformed people both conclude that if the Gospels are the NT, then what happened in Acts must be something more. They both conclude this same idea of more power. While that is true, that power comes from being born again, which OT believers didn't yet have until they were placed into Christ Jesus withe the baptism by/with the Holy Spirit. Strange bedfellows, theologically speaking, but true. The NT begins with the first believers placed into Christ Jesus, the birth of the Church. This baptism with the Holy Spirit baptized them into Christ Jesus. It was owed to them. That's what made them born again and justified, being "placed into" Jesus, the One True Church. The OT heroes died having not received that Promise (Hebrews 11:39-40). They were kept in Abrahams bosom in Hades until Jesus was lifted up (John 3:13-15).

Everything waited for the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, as He said, He must first be glorified, lifted up, then He will send the Holy Spirit. That's what birthed the NT, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that placed the first believers in Christ.

Hades, simply means realm of the spirits. Since the NT was translated into Greek, Hades was the word that best described Sheol from the OT. The idea of Hades comes from Sheol in the OT, not Greek mythology. So, OT Sheol is translated as Hades in the NT. The KJV erroneously translated that same word as 'Hell' in many places. or, as some have noted, that the idea of hell back then was more in line with what we know of Hades today. Anyways, this was one of the errors that the NKJV fixed, or updated.

Here's a link that everyone should have in their library that touched on this and more. I found this about twenty years ago and it was saying many of the things that I was discovering at the same time.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

Galatians 3: 22-29 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Have a closer look at the different baptisms. Ask yourself in the context of when baptism is mentioned, is the person or group, of already converted people?

Is this an individual being baptized, by immersion, after conversion, or a whole group, already each person indwelled, receiving the Spirit 'in their midst' to become a NT local body of believers...a NT church? Aka Mathew 18, Acts 19.

Jesus and His disciples did all the work of a NT church like at Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus etc .. they were a local body of baptized believers, with Jesus as the Head, carrying out the great commission and commanded.

Pentecost is the local church empowered, not the beginning of the NT.

 

[Cameron143]

I think you are arbitrarily limiting the sense of Jesus words. Jesus did not say “People become my sheep, and then hear my voice, and then I know them, and then they follow me. There are no sequential adverbs in the text.

If someone is applying to me for a job, and I say, “My employees hear my office briefings and I know each employee, what I expect of them, and they follow my orders. If you are here at 8 am tomorrow, you can start working for me.” The person is not going to become your your employee unless they turn up at 8 am tomorrow. And S/He will not become your employee until they turn up at 8 am. S/He has heard your words, but may decide to do something more preferable tomorrow than take up employment. There is no implication in my words that the applicant is already my employee, and that is why they will turn up at 8 am tomorrow..

That is not true. Many people receive healings or are comforted by elements of the gospel message or are convicted of their sin by the gospel message, but choose not to receive Jesus. It is insulting to God to say that there is no power exercised by God toward a person via the gospel, unless God succeeds in bringing the person all the way to conversion .

You have divorced Rom. 10:17 from 10: 13-16 and 10:18, where Paul says very clearly that -
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You say tht people who do not believe the gospel "lack the hearing spoken of in Rom. 10:17” However, verses 16 and 18 say that they have heard with the hearing spoken of in v. 17. Your claim contradicts the clear words of Romans 10: 13-18.

I appreciate the discussion.

Grace and peace.

 

[Dave123]

Have a closer look at the different baptisms. Ask yourself in the context of when baptism is mentioned, is the person or group, of already converted people?

Is this an individual being baptized, by immersion, after conversion, or a whole group, already each person indwelled, receiving the Spirit 'in their midst' to become a NT local body of believers...a NT church? Aka Mathew 18, Acts 19.

Jesus and His disciples did all the work of a NT church like at Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus etc .. they were a local body of baptized believers, with Jesus as the Head, carrying out the great commission and commanded.

Pentecost is the local church empowered, not the beginning of the NT.

Nobody is converted until they are placed into Christ. That's the promise that was owed to all OT believers. Receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling is the baptism that saves, the one true baptism. That's what places us into Christ. Jesus is the baptizer. The Holy spirit is the agent of that baptism.

I would ask you to look at that same context, that tells us these were true OT believers.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think you are arbitrarily limiting the sense of Jesus words. Jesus did not say “People become my sheep, and then hear my voice, and then I know them, and then they follow me. There are no sequential adverbs in the text.

If someone is applying to me for a job, and I say, “My employees hear my office briefings and I know each employee, what I expect of them, and they follow my orders. If you are here at 8 am tomorrow, you can start working for me.” The person is not going to become your your employee unless they turn up at 8 am tomorrow. And S/He will not become your employee until they turn up at 8 am. S/He has heard your words, but may decide to do something more preferable tomorrow than take up employment. There is no implication in my words that the applicant is already my employee, and that is why they will turn up at 8 am tomorrow..

Agreed!!!

I appreciate this breakdown, very helpful.

 

[HeIsHere]

I don’t know about you, but I learned the gospel through the natural senses of hearing (Faith comes by hearing) and seeing (they searched the scriptures to see if these things were true).

Your distinction does not make any sense to me. It seems to be an arbitrary unscriptural distinction. Where do we find your theory presented in scripture?

Same here and regular believers would say the same.

Amen!

 

[Mem]

In the simplest terms, if our faith is of the Gospel, then it's obvious that Jesus is the Author and the Finisher of it. Or am I underthinking it?

 

[HeIsHere]

Have a closer look at the different baptisms. Ask yourself in the context of when baptism is mentioned, is the person or group, of already converted people?

Is this an individual being baptized, by immersion, after conversion, or a whole group, already each person indwelled, receiving the Spirit 'in their midst' to become a NT local body of believers...a NT church? Aka Mathew 18, Acts 19.

Jesus and His disciples did all the work of a NT church like at Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus etc .. they were a local body of baptized believers, with Jesus as the Head, carrying out the great commission and commanded.

Pentecost is the local church empowered, not the beginning of the NT.

When do you think the OT ended, just curious.
Do you think the NT started before Pentecost?

I think there was a time of overlap between the two... one was coming to an end slowly and ended with the destruction of the temple and the other was growing exponentially.

 

[Mem]

But, just to assure you that my overthinking hasn't been totally exhausted...

Reflecting on the musings of @Dave123 about the distinction of life, I'm reminded of a video short that AI suggested I watch that featured a woman explaining something like five peculiar things among which was the observation that you can't say God's name, YHWH, without breathing. Taking a breath in, Yah, and breathing out, Weh. And it occurs to me that no of us were given a choice of whether we should live this life, in this world. There was no initial choice given to breathe or not to breathe, for any of us birthed into this life. However, not everyone of us will live on into the world to come. Perhaps it does have everything to do with an awareness of that Name that we are breathing. This would be where the Spiritual enters the equation, that which lives above and beyond the natural life.

Natural breathing doesn't take faith, but breathing His name is another matter.

 

[wattie]

When do you think the OT ended, just curious.
Do you think the NT started before Pentecost?

I think there was a time of overlap between the two... one was coming to an end slowly and ended with the destruction of the temple and the other was growing exponentially.

Well, the law and the prophets were until John.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, the law and the prophets were until John.

John was written?

 

[Cameron143]

John was written?

Until John the Baptist...Luke 16:16.

 

[HeIsHere]

More from the comments...


"God saved me out of the lie of Calvinism. It is definitely a false gospel. Thanks for making these videos. Knowing it’s a lie is one thing. Learning how to contend for the faith and defend the true gospel is a bit more work but something we are called to do."

"The Calvinism is making the God of the bible horribly cruel and sadistic. Not a God I want to know and think about. I got mentally ill in 2015 when I discovered what Calvinism is and I prayed so much to not be reprobated.

Now, I have a bit of hope discovering that God let you choose him instead of him choosing you."

The comments are always so encouraging.

 

[HeIsHere]

More from the comments...


"God saved me out of the lie of Calvinism. It is definitely a false gospel. Thanks for making these videos. Knowing it’s a lie is one thing. Learning how to contend for the faith and defend the true gospel is a bit more work but something we are called to do."

"The Calvinism is making the God of the bible horribly cruel and sadistic. Not a God I want to know and think about. I got mentally ill in 2015 when I discovered what Calvinism is and I prayed so much to not be reprobated.

Now, I have a bit of hope discovering that God let you choose him instead of him choosing you."

The comments are always so encouraging.

I was wondering where this went ..... ooops wrong thread, lol.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, the law and the prophets were until John.

Well yes I do see it as the beginning of the end.. but I do see it as a process.

 

[wattie]

Well yes I do see it as the beginning of the end.. but I do see it as a process.

Yes, it wasn't a sudden change, but a fulfilling. Like a foundation being disestablished and then rebuilt over time, rather than a sudden change.