Aborting?

[leelee]

You realize that some sick human being will someday claim that by this logic we can start killing street urchins.

I doubt it. The point she was making is that they suffered. That didn't need to happen.

 

[Ritter]

I doubt it. The point she was making is that they suffered. That didn't need to happen.

What isn't there to doubt? People have been finding new ways of and reasons to kill each other since Cain and Abel.

Abortion for example.

 

[leelee]

What isn't there to doubt? People have been finding new ways of and reasons to kill each other since Cain and Abel.

Abortion for example.

I doubt that people will kill homeless kids. That is the doubt.

 

[Ritter]

I doubt that people will kill homeless kids. That is the doubt.

What may seem crazy to you and your social worker friend today may not seem so crazy in a couple of decades. Acceptance of killing as a means to solve the pleasure/pain equation will only lead to more killing or other forms of mass subjugation. Obviously, my example is tongue and cheek, but impossible or even improbable?

If you think so, I implore you to read more history.

 

[violakat]

And yet many have killed in the name of God. Look at the crusades (i realize these were before guns).
I had a teacher who had previously been a social worker. We discussed abortion. She told me that there were some kids who should have been aborted, they should not have had to live in what they lived in. And as for adoption as an alternative...do you know how many kids end up in care and don't get adopted?
I disagree with abortion as an alternative to safe sex but I am 100% pro-choice.

Actually, most of the kids in the foster care system are not available for adoption. In 1999, only about 22% were actually available. I doubt the stats have changed that much in the last 12 years.

 

[RecordingSound]

Gianna Jessen - YouTube

makes you rethink abortion big time! Love this woman!

 

[leelee]

What may seem crazy to you and your social worker friend today may not seem so crazy in a couple of decades. Acceptance of killing as a means to solve the pleasure/pain equation will only lead to more killing or other forms of mass subjugation. Obviously, my example is tongue and cheek, but impossible or even improbable?

If you think so, I implore you to read more history.

I have read a lot of history. In fact it was my best subject. It is highly improbable.

 

[Ritter]

Nope, the Spartans never discarded children on hillsides or slew helots as a rite of passage.

The Aztecs never kidnapped people from other tribes only to at times stack heartless bodies like cords of wood after a full sanguinary night of sacrifices.

Ethnic cleansing never occurred in Eastern Europe during the 1990's.

The Indians never burned widows to death in the belief that their lives were no longer worth living after the death of their husbands.

The Nazis and Communists never exterminated millions of people because they did not coincide with their ideological goals.

I have no idea what history you have been reading, but I see a whole lot of blood and barbarism.

 

[leelee]

Nope, the Spartans never discarded children on hillsides or slew helots as a rite of passage.

The Aztecs never kidnapped people from other tribes only to at times stack heartless bodies like cords of wood after a full sanguinary night of sacrifices.

Ethnic cleansing never occurred in Eastern Europe during the 1990's.

The Indians never burned widows to death in the belief that their lives were no longer worth living after the death of their husbands.

The Nazis and Communists never exterminated millions of people because they did not coincide with their ideological goals.

I have no idea what history you have been reading, but I see a whole lot of blood and barbarism.

do you even know when the aztecs and spartans were around? we have learnt some things since then.

 

[emorejemsti]

Abortion is morally wrong.

 

[Ritter]

do you even know when the aztecs and spartans were around? we have learnt some things since then.

I love how you cherry pick my two most ancient examples and conveniently ignore the others. Nice!

Accumulated knowledge, no doubt, helps. But it is also the correct worldview into which that accumulated knowledge is synthesized.

All the education in the world would not have driven slavery from the American South less than two centuries ago. Germany was a intellectual juggernaut during that same period. That didn't save them. Who would argue against the innovative nature of the French Philosophes before the Committee on Public Safety reared its ugly head?

Approximately 262 million people were killed by ideological regimes and dictatorships in the 20th century. That is before you add WWI, WWII, Vietnam, etc.

If there is anything we have learned in this modern era, it is that man will murder on a massive scale and find the most insane of justifications for it.

 

[leelee]

I love how you cherry pick my two most ancient examples and conveniently ignore the others. Nice!

Accumulated knowledge, no doubt, helps. But it is also the correct worldview into which that accumulated knowledge is synthesized.

All the education in the world would not have driven slavery from the American South less than two centuries ago. Germany was a intellectual juggernaut during that same period. That didn't save them. Who would argue against the innovative nature of the French Philosophes before the Committee on Public Safety reared its ugly head?

Approximately 262 million people were killed by ideological regimes and dictatorships in the 20th century. That is before you add WWI, WWII, Vietnam, etc.

If there is anything we have learned in this modern era, it is that man will murder on a massive scale and find the most insane of justifications for it.

we have moved on since all of them. the second world war was a lesson to everyone and just because the ussr did something do you think everyone else will follow suit. And oddly enough I know about dictators, didja hear gadaffi is dead? kinda big news just now.

 

[Nanabell]

I had my son at 15 yrs old then pregnant at 17 yrs old. My mom was not a Christian at the time neither was I. My Dad got remarried and was not invalid with us. But my mom was dead set against abortion. She would disown me. So I had a older friend that helped me set up a appointment behind my moms back and a couple days before the appointment I got such bad cramps I had to get rushed into the hospital by my mom. I thought for sure I was having a miscarriage. The pain was just like labor. The Dr. Came in and said you know your pregnant right so of course my mom heard. She was not happy, but when he sent me home with Mylanta for gas pains and said the baby was just fine I was not happy. Now I had to cancel my appointment cause my mom would never let me go through with that. But I'm so thankful today I have a beautiful 24 yr daughter from that pregnancy. She is my best friend. I have other children, but I'm glad that happened and my mom and I believe God speared me from making that decision cause she encourages me in the Lord and I would always wonder what life would have been like with her God knows us in our mothers belly that's so cool

 

[TheAristocat]

I had my son at 15 yrs old then pregnant at 17 yrs old. My mom was not a Christian at the time neither was I. My Dad got remarried and was not invalid with us. But my mom was dead set against abortion. She would disown me. So I had a older friend that helped me set up a appointment behind my moms back and a couple days before the appointment I got such bad cramps I had to get rushed into the hospital by my mom. I thought for sure I was having a miscarriage. The pain was just like labor. The Dr. Came in and said you know your pregnant right so of course my mom heard. She was not happy, but when he sent me home with Mylanta for gas pains and said the baby was just fine I was not happy. Now I had to cancel my appointment cause my mom would never let me go through with that. But I'm so thankful today I have a beautiful 24 yr daughter from that pregnancy. She is my best friend. I have other children, but I'm glad that happened and my mom and I believe God speared me from making that decision cause she encourages me in the Lord and I would always wonder what life would have been like with her God knows us in our mothers belly that's so cool

That's an awesome story, Nanabell! I, for one, am thankful that God spares us from our own stupidity. He has spared me before, too, and I am grateful to him for that. I am glad your daughter is healthy and doing well. And it's good for others to know that not all atheists agree with abortion. Like your mother, there are other atheists who recognize it for what it is: killing human beings who do not yet have the cognitive ability to even choose wrong.

 

[Ritter]

we have moved on since all of them. the second world war was a lesson to everyone and just because the ussr did something do you think everyone else will follow suit. And oddly enough I know about dictators, didja hear gadaffi is dead? kinda big news just now.

Has it ever occurred to you that people ignore, forget, or perhaps learn the wrong lessons? That people look at nations like the USSR, Cambodia, etc and say "well that will never happen to us" and fall into similar problems because they make interesting little ideological compromises.

Time and accumulated knowledge can be factors in civility,that I'll grant you, but they are not everything. Worldview is the name of the game.

 

[MissCris]

I'm being lazy and not reading every post on this, but I seem to have caught something (no idea who said it now-like I said, laziness and all that) about how some babies SHOULD be aborted in order to spare them from having to live in a bad situation...

What?!

I feel badly for the numerous kids around the world who are born into poverty and worse, I really do. But I also feel that nobody is below God's notice- God has a plan for the poor kids, the sick kids, the kids surrounded by drugs or violence or disease. God has a plan for their parents, too. And I wish that people wouldn't keep deciding that they know better than God does about what is best for their unborn children.

Obviously nobody can alter or mess up God's ultimate plan simply by making poor decisions- although that really shouldn't be an excuse for making bad choices in the first place.

I've said before and I'll say again, I haven't got all the answers, there are the rare occasions where having the baby would kill the mom or baby or both...is that reason to abort? I don't know. I wouldn't think so...the situation is still in God's hands.

Anyway, I'm absolutely pro-life.

 

[Matthew]

I had a teacher who had previously been a social worker. We discussed abortion. She told me that there were some kids who should have been aborted, they should not have had to live in what they lived in.

Hindsight makes it easy to speak in absolutes but regarding these children who 'should have been aborted', FYI, the most disturbing thing I've ever read on this forum.....

.....how could anyone have known they would have bad lives? until given a life a live to live you cannot know if it would be so bad as to regard it as not worth having been lived.

The belief someone may suffer is not a justification for abortion, because the future cannot be told and things never follow the line of human reason and judgement.
No-one should suffer, but the argument that suffering can be avoided by ending life at a point where it has barely begun is thoroughly illogical.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I doubt that people will kill homeless kids. That is the doubt.

Get a Western Civ. history book.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Leelee, should this have been aborted?

It's got a lot of suffering.

 

[leelee]

Leelee, should this have been aborted?

It's got a lot of suffering.

stop trying to twist things. learn to accept an opinion.