Calvinism is Gospel !

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can a bad tree produce good fruit, Calvin was a bad tree.
But the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism" were written in response to five points of Arminianism. The doctrines were not invented by John Calvin. John Wycliffe lived before Calvin, in the 14th Century. Wycliffe believed in salvation by grace alone through faith but also believed in predestination. Those who have faith are predestined by God, and faith is a gift of God to them. So he prefigures Calvin in his belief about predestination. Calvin's guilt or otherwise in the matter of Servetus does nothing to the doctrines which, although they've become known as "Calvinism", existed long before Calvin.
 
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No such thing as the sovereignty of God in the Bible. The correct term is "almighty".
The "sovereignty" of God, like "Trinity", may not be in the English translations of the Bible, but certainly the idea of God being supremely sovereign is there. For example:

(Job 42:1 NKJV) Then Job answered the LORD and said:
(Job 42:2) "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

(Dan 4:35) All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

(Isa 46:9) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
(Isa 46:10) Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
 
Nope. What is the Gospel message? Believe and be saved. Not be saved and believe.
Yeah you do. Yeah but its not believe and get saved. One needs to be saved b4 they can believe, a lost man cant believe because he lost and the Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
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No, Romans 8:29 is specifically referring to the Jews, because "those He foreknew" were the Jews.

AI has something to say on this point.

You're raising a legitimate hermeneutical point: context across the whole argument of Romans, not just the immediate verses. That's an important way many scholars read Paul's letter.


I wouldn't reject that Romans 7 is addressed to those who know the Law. In fact, Paul explicitly says so:




That is a clear statement about his audience for that section. The question is how far that audience marker extends into chapter 8.


Similarly, I agree that Romans 9–11 is unmistakably about Israel. Paul opens chapter 9 by expressing anguish for "my kinsmen according to the flesh," and chapters 10–11 continue discussing Israel's unbelief, the remnant, and the inclusion of the Gentiles.


Where interpreters differ is whether Romans 8 is still speaking primarily to Jewish believers or whether Paul has broadened his address to the mixed Roman church (Jew and Gentile).


You mentioned the opening lines of Romans 8. They read:




You're right that "Law" remains a dominant theme. The argument of chapters 7 and 8 flows continuously. Paul is still contrasting the Mosaic Law with the work of the Spirit. That continuity is undeniable.


The question is whether references to "the Law" mean the audience is exclusively Jewish. There are two main approaches:


  • The continuity view (similar to what you're suggesting): Romans 7–8 should be read as one sustained discussion aimed primarily at those under the Mosaic Law—Jewish believers or those deeply familiar with Torah. On this reading, "those He foreknew" in Romans 8:29 could naturally be understood as the same covenant people Paul later identifies in Romans 11:2.
  • The mixed-audience view (the more common scholarly position): Paul continues discussing the Law because it is central to his argument, but he is applying its implications to the whole church, which includes Gentiles who have been grafted into God's people.

The fact that Paul uses "foreknew" again in Romans 11:2 is certainly worth noticing. It's not an accidental repetition. Whether Paul intends the same referent in Romans 8:29 is the interpretive question.


Your reading has been defended by some interpreters who see Romans 8–11 as one continuous discussion of God's covenant people rather than a shift from individual salvation to Israel. They argue that "those He foreknew" echoes God's prior covenant relationship with Israel.


The reason many others disagree is Romans 8:30:




Paul elsewhere says that justification is for both Jew and Gentile who believe (Romans 3:22–30), so they conclude the group in verse 30 cannot be limited to ethnic Israel.


So I don't think your argument is without textual basis. It hinges on whether the audience marker from Romans 7:1 and the Law-centered discussion of Romans 8 should control the interpretation of "those He foreknew," or whether Paul's description of justification and life in Christ indicates he is speaking of the entire believing community. That's the central interpretive divide.

Romans is addressed to the believers in Rome and is about how all sinners may be saved, which is by having faith in Jesus as Messiah, the Lord incarnate.
 
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But the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism" were written in response to five points of Arminianism. The doctrines were not invented by John Calvin. John Wycliffe lived before Calvin, in the 14th Century. Wycliffe believed in salvation by grace alone through faith but also believed in predestination. Those who have faith are predestined by God, and faith is a gift of God to them. So he prefigures Calvin in his belief about predestination. Calvin's guilt or otherwise in the matter of Servetus does nothing to the doctrines which, although they've become known as "Calvinism", existed long before Calvin.

Yes, tulipism was first advocated by Augustine of Hippo in about 400 AD.
 
Jesus let us know that not everyone hears. They need ears to hear.

But lots of people do not have the eyes to see this in Scripture.

Pretty straight forward!

Yes, only those who love truth will see the gospel in Scripture and be saved (2Thes. 2:10, 1 Tim. 2:3-4). The rest are unwilling to cooperate with God (Matt. 23:37).
 
Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1. Preacher sent
2. Preacher preaches the gospel
3. They hear the gospel
4. They believe the gospel
5. They call on the name of the Lord for salvation

Pretty straight forward
Yes, but to complete the picture include:
6. Or they refuse to believe the gospel and remain damned.
 
No, Romans 8:29 is specifically referring to the Jews, because "those He foreknew" were the Jews.
Absolutely False. Thats like saying only ethnic jews will be conformed to the image of Gods Son Vs 29 reads

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

In this context if Gentiles arent included they cant be conformed to image of Christ, we know thats a falsehood

It means Gentiles are exempt from the chain of salvation:

  • Whom He foreknew -He predestined
  • Whom He predestined - He called
  • Whom He called -He justified
  • Whom He justified - He glorified
Paul would later in the next chapter say Gentiles as vessels of Mercy are called Rom 9:23-24

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Its saying Gentiles wont be Justified as Jews will be , thats false from Rom 3:30

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

This is a closed, unbroken loop. The exact same group of people passes through every single stage. If the "foreknown" are only Jews, then only Jews are predestined, only Jews are called, only Jews are justified, and only Jews are glorified. This would mean no Gentiles are justified or going to heaven, which is a massive heresy that completely denies the gospel.
 
I am not disagreeing with Calvinism but rather I am showing how tulipism corrupts the gospel and demeans God.
Tulip is the Gospel and you saying it corrupts the Gospel, in fact Tulip Truths Glorify God and His Sovereign Grace !
 
There are teachings about various aspects of Christ.

You want to narrow it down to one simple thing?
Be my guest.
This poster denies there is a Doctrine of Christ, even in light of scripture Heb 6:1

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Jn 1:9


Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
 
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I don't disagree that God is almighty. That doesn't preclude Him being sovereign. In fact, He is sovereign because He is omnipotent. I think you are just being a little OCD about the use of words.
The English word comes through Old French soverain, from the Latin superanus, meaning above, highest, or supreme. It became a political term for a king or queen who possesses supreme authority over a nation. the word sovereign does not appear in hebrew.

That is why today we hear of a monarch as the sovereign.

Because of this history, some Bible translators use "Sovereign" for God to emphasize His supreme rule over all creation. However, it is a translation choice, not the actual biblical word. to me its the wrong choice.

How can we apply a word that is applied to "Royals" mere men to God? Almighty if unique and no man dare use it.
 
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The English word comes through Old French soverain, from the Latin superanus, meaning above, highest, or supreme. It became a political term for a king or queen who possesses supreme authority over a nation. the word sovereign does not appear in hebrew.

That is why today we hear of a monarch as the sovereign.

Because of this history, some Bible translators use "Sovereign" for God to emphasize His supreme rule over all creation. However, it is a translation choice, not the actual biblical word. to me its the wrong choice.

How can we apply a word that is applied to "Royals" mere men to God? Almighty if unique and no man dare use it.
But that reasoning does not work, because we use the word "King" (or queen) to mean the ruler over a country, and God is called a king in Scripture.
 
Matthew11-27.png

All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27
I agree with these verses. Its all going according to God's plan.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,
 
But the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism" were written in response to five points of Arminianism. The doctrines were not invented by John Calvin. John Wycliffe lived before Calvin, in the 14th Century. Wycliffe believed in salvation by grace alone through faith but also believed in predestination. Those who have faith are predestined by God, and faith is a gift of God to them. So he prefigures Calvin in his belief about predestination. Calvin's guilt or otherwise in the matter of Servetus does nothing to the doctrines which, although they've become known as "Calvinism", existed long before Calvin.
David, I have always liked your kindness and gentleness, characteristics found in Christ, just wanted to say so.

Now, do we need any doctrine from Men, the words Christ spoke are not enough, He covered all bases for salvation, Men's doctrines seem to clash with the words of Jesus and like you said, one doctrine was written to counteract another, these are not important, they contain both truth and false ideas and we are waiting a lot of time debating them, I see a trap in these, they make us fight one another as we see on this thread, who was the truth.

We all know the answer, Jesus words are the Living water,s his words are eternal life, we should prioritize all he said and did as it was all for us, for our benefir our salvation. This is truly what matters and we should discuss. in essence if a doctrines says something different that Christ teaches then it should be excised like a cancer. I am not well versed in all these doctrines invented my men but if I look closer I see they are all about power for the people fabricating them and they are not of Christ.

Peace be with you David.
 
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But that reasoning does not work, because we use the word "King" (or queen) to mean the ruler over a country, and God is called a king in Scripture.
That is a fair objection David, but there is an important distinction.

Yes, "King" is also a human political title, yet it is a title that God Himself chose to reveal Himself by in the Scriptures. The question is not whether a word is also used for humans, but whether it faithfully represents the original biblical text.
For example, the Hebrew word מֶלֶךְ (melek) literally means king. When Scripture says,
For Jehovah is a great God, And a great King above all gods. (Psalm 95:3, ASV)
the original Hebrew actually says King. Likewise,
Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle. (Psalm 24:8, ASV)
Again, the Hebrew word is literally King.
So "King" is the actual word used by the biblical writers.
 
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Using the English of today, one must totally reject the word of God to deny that God is absolutely sovereign over all!

In current English usage, God’s sovereignty is explicitly stated in scripture. See quotes from the 1989 New Revised Standard Version of the US, and the 1989 Revised English Bible of the UK.

O LORD, our Sovereign, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens…O LORD, our Sovereign, how majestic is your name in all the earth!” (Ps 8:1, 9, NRSV)

“this is the interpretation, O king, and it is a decree of the Most High that has come upon my lord the king: You shall be driven away from human society, and your dwelling shall be with the wild animals. You shall be made to eat grass like oxen, you shall be bathed with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, until you have learned that the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of mortals, and gives it to whom he will.” (Dan 4:24-25, NRSV)

“Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said: ‘Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that the Son may glorify you. For you have made him sovereign over all mankind, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.” (John 17:1-2, REB)
compare
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” (Matt 11:27, NRSV) *The next verse, v28f gives a hint of those He chooses

“In the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords.” (1Tim 6:13-15, NRSV)

“Each of the four living creatures had six wings, and eyes all round and inside them. Day and night unceasingly they sing: ‘Holy, holy, holy is God the sovereign Lord of all, who was, and is, and is to come!’” (Rev 4:8, REB)

“they cried out with a loud voice, ‘Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’” (Rev 6:10, NRSV)
 
David, I have always liked your kindness and gentleness, characteristics found in Christ, just wanted to say so.

Now, do we need any doctrine from Men, the words Christ spoke are not enough, He covered all bases for salvation, Men's doctrines seem to clash with the words of Jesus and like you said, one doctrine was written to counteract another, these are not important, they contain both truth and false ideas and we are waiting a lot of time debating them, I see a trap in these, they make us fight one another as we see on this thread, who was the truth.

We all know the answer, Jesus words are the Living water,s his words are eternal life, we should prioritize all he said and did as it was all for us, for our benefir our salvation. This is truly what matters and we should discuss. in essence if a doctrines says something different that Christ teaches then it should be excised like a cancer. I am not well versed in all these doctrines invented my men but if I look closer I see they are all about power for the people fabricating them and they are not of Christ.

Peace be with you David.
Thank you for your kind words. I try to be kind and gentle, even when I disagree.

I agree with what you say about Christ's words. That is one reason I rarely refer to myself as a Calvinist, because it makes it sound as though what I believe has its origin in John Calvin, when in fact I believed such things long before even knowing that there was such a per8son as Calvin. As for people wanting power, I have come across supposed Christian leaders of various persuasions who seem greedy for power. Praise God, though, the pastor of my church is one of the most humble men I have come across.

Thanks again, and God richly bless you.
 
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