Is cessation an observation or theology?

[EmethAlethia]

A study of 1Co. 12 (Part 1)

1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
Same God, same “goal”/Purpose, but differing individual effects.

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
The reason for the “Differing Effects is to effect “good” in the body of Christ for all its members, even though the individual effects for the members differ substantially

8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Each person gets a specific gift or set of gifts, not based on their own desires or will, but, as it says in verse 11, just as the Holy Spirit wills. The will, or desires, of men have no part or sway in God’s distribution of individual gifts.

12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
Just as each part of our body, when functioning properly, does different things, and have different functions, God, the Holy Spirit distributes the functions amongst the members of the body of Christ. Perfect balance, perfect efficiency. No waste, no mistakes, neither in the distribution of the functioning of your physical body, nor in the distribution of gifts in the Body of Christ.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
The body of Christ is a whole, but we are individual parts of it. We all have different functions. Each member’s assigned role/gift is designed to keep the body of Christ functioning perfectly just as the Holy Spirit designed us to be. But here’s the problem …

15 If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
People don’t necessarily like what they are assigned. The fact that others who believe their gifts are superior are “Lording it over” those they see with lesser ones, doesn’t help. Many don’t like the “part of the body” God the Holy Spirit chose to distribute to them, “Just as HE wills. They want to be the mouths, the brains, the … things that bring them the most glory. They all earnestly desire greater gifts. They all want to be the center of attention, the shining lights, … who wants the gift of helps when you can heal? Who wants administration when you can speak in tongues and give prophesies? In the eyes of men, many gifts are worthless in their sight by comparison. What, according to Paul/God are the Corinthians doing? They are forsaking “What they consider to be”, “Lesser” gifts they were assigned and acting like they have the ones “they consider” greater. But there are no greater or lesser parts of the body. Every part is necessary or the body ceases to function properly. That’s Paul's point. Ignoring the gift(s) you have, to act like you have a gift you don’t, hurts the body of Christ twice over. Yes, people can walk on their hands, for short distances “If they absolutely have to.” But they can’t function as a hand while doing so, and walking on your hands is far inferior to walking on two legs as God designed the body to function. Paul continues. And, in case you didn’t get this the first time I said it, let me repeat myself …

18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
Your desiring to be something else does nothing good… for anyone. It hurts the body. Besides, you don’t get a say in this. This isn’t about, “what you want.” This is about proper functioning of the Body of Christ, and you have been ASSIGNED a role, a part, a function … in the body of Christ, BY GOD, for a reason. If you fail to DO the function you are DESIGNED BY GOD to DO, the proper functioning of the body is lost. You hurt the body. Plus, you are not equipped by God to play a different role, further harming the body of Christ, both by not doing the role you were created for, and secondly not doing the role you are trying to play well at all. You aren’t equipped for it.

19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? (God didn’t design/distribute the gifts with a single function, but with various different functions designed to work together for the common good. Again, this is not about what you like, what you desire, about trying to swap what you see as an inferior gift for something you consider superior. This is not about “How you look and feel”, this is about how the body of Christ is designed to function. This is only about what God “Desires”.

20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
Every part, every gift, every single aspect of each gift is a required function for the body of Christ. One of the big reason the Corinthians were forsaking the gifts they were assigned, to act like they had other ones, was because of how they were treated by brothers and sisters who considered their gift, and thus them, inferior and worthless. We need everyone functioning in the roles you were assigned or the body is hurt. The body is handicapped. Nothing works right, and the entire thing falls apart. Don’t DO this. This isn’t about you receiving honor and glory for what God assigned you. Or feeling superior or inferior over what God has chosen to assign you. This is about the universal good that comes about by using what each of us has been assigned exactly as God wants it to be employed.

23 and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
When we work together doing the roles each of us is assigned, the entire body is honored. God is honored. There is no “superiority” or “inferiority”, not in our physical bodies, nor in the body of Christ with gifts. Everything works well for everyone. We all receive the exact same honor. It’s the same body for gosh sakes, all of us need each other, all of us get the exact same honor. We are ONE BODY. We are all needed and necessary, and we need to both understand this, and treat each other as such.

 

[EmethAlethia]

A study of 1Co. 12 (Part 2)

25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
Ever smash a toe on a table? How’s the brain work in that instant? The eyes? What happens to the bodies balance? What functions properly? All normal body functioning stops to take care of the injured part. Smash a toe into a table and I’m sorry, the brain isn’t going to be able to focus on a thing. The body hops and flops around and nothing at all is going to work right for the entire body till that problem is resolved. Hit your chins on a table, same thing. If your stomach fails to function, if your teeth fail to function, if any part is hurt or fails to function, as designed, the entire body pays the price.)

27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Who appoints them again? This is the Third time He says, sorry, you don’t get what you want. All your “desire” for something else means nothing. God has assigned them, just as HE desires. Deal with it. Yes, in verse 28, we have a numbered list. But remember the conversation just finished. Based on what was just said, is it a list of gifts in the order God considers “greatest”? If so, tell me which part of the body is greater than another. What did Paul just say?
In verses 21-26 he just said, every single function of our physical bodies and the Body of Christ, is just as necessary, all the glory is spread equally. We are one unit. One part of the body wins, the whole body wins. One part suffers, the whole body suffers with it. Different roles, the same body. We are ONE. The loss of any single function destroys the entire bodies function. If you don’t think being a toe nail is important, smack your big toe hard enough with a brick that you lose that toenail and see how important that “unimportant” toe nail becomes for the next few weeks.
Yes, this is a prioritized list, but it’s not “God’s” prioritized list. It’s man’s. It’s a list of the top positions, roles, gifts … every person in Corinth thought were the most important. Apostles … that’s number one, of course. Prophets … that’s pretty darn important, pretty showy … Teachers … they are out in front of everyone and everyone listens to them, miracles … those are pretty darn flashy … These are all the things every person in Corinth would seek if they could, while leaving the “Lesser” gifts behind altogether.
But God did not assign them this way. God does not state apostles are more important than teachers or more important than speaking in tongues or more important than the gift of knowledge, or helps … One body. We’re all equal. We all need to do the role we were assigned. Man sees levels of gifts; God sees necessary functions for the body of Christ and distributes them just as HE wills to get that properly functioning body.
Let me shift gears for a moment to consider some context. The “gifts” had nothing at all to do with the individuals receiving them. Corinth did not have a wealth of converts from Judaism. For the most part, they are pagans with no knowledge of the truth of God at all. Little or no Jewish knowledge. And there wasn’t a New Testament to refer to at all at this time. While there was an earlier “short letter” from Paul to the Corinthians, it no longer exists.
Without the gifts, without the apostles, prophets, teachers, … ALL of these miraculous abilities, talents, knowledge that had absolutely nothing at all to do with the abilities or knowledge of the people involved, the church would have been dead in the water. Every apostle would have been completely overwhelmed. But there is NOTHING at all that was due to man’s abilities or training involved with spiritual gifts in the bible.
Those speaking in tongues didn’t go for 6 months intensive language training. Boom, Christian. You have the Holy Spirit and Walla, you speak fluent Swahili, you speak French, German… You may not understand a single thing that comes out of your own mouth, but you can speak it. Others can’t speak a word outside their own tongue, but understand everything from all languages perfectly. Look at Acts one. It just happened. No 4 years of studying to become a pastor of a church. Just you receive the Holy Spirit and Walla … fully trained and knowledgeable pastors or teachers. NO KNOWLEDGE, NO BIBLE STUDIES, NO ANYTHING. Just miraculous, fully functional abilities, with no prior knowledge or training.
Each separate function in perfect balance with every other one, just as God designed it to be in the body of Christ. What we have today is training, maybe some talent.)

29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
God didn’t design it so everyone could do every job. Everyone got what they got exactly as God desired. Use what you have been assigned. STOP MISBEHAVING THIS WAY. IT HURTS THE ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST!) Paul continues …

There are 2 possible "translations" from the Greek for verse 31. The 1st, and more common is as follows:

31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

The problem with this interpretation is it contradicts every single point Paul has made about their "misuse, improper desires, hurting the body of Christ, that desiring a gift won't change what God assigns, ... Based on everything said in chapter 12, does this “command”, if it is one, make any sense at all?

Here's the second "Valid" interpretation of the Greek that "Fully" fits with everything Paul says before and after it:

31 “But you are still earnestly desiring “greater” gifts. But I show you an abundantly better way”.

Paul, in the very next verse (1Co. 13:1) continues with his reasons for why they should stop these bad behaviors… Paul, in the very next verse, continues with his reasons NOT TO KEEP SINNING in the ways they have been.

The next verses discuss the "most showy gifts" they are hurting the body of Christ by "acting" like they had them, even to an extent no one ever possessed them, including Christ, but were still hurting the body with their behaviors, they would be worthless.

Let's come back to the tongues of angels in a second.

Is there anyone in any church claiming to be a prophet to the point where they know absolutely ALL mysteries, and possess absolutely ALL knowledge to the point they are the equal of God Himself? Anybody? That's what the 1st part of 1Co. 13:2 says. How about anyone with Faith that can simply walk up to a mountain and cast the entire thing into the sea? Got anyone with faith like that standing around in your church? Now, given the context, are their "real" tongues of angels? If so show me the people in your church who know absolutely everything and every mystery to the point they are the equal of God Himself, and I'd like to see the mountain casting as well.

The arguments are a continuation of all the arguments against their misuse in chapter 12. BUT THERE ARE MORE ...

 

[EmethAlethia]

1Co. 13 ... Part 3

1Co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
The gifts are the "partial" things. When the "Perfect" comes the partial will be gone.

10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
The word perfect is neuter. There are two things "perfect" and "neuter" in scripture. It could mean when the Holy Spirit comes the gifts pass away, but that makes no sense. The other option is the "Word of God".

11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
Here the gifts are compared to being infantile things in comparison to what is coming, i.e. the "perfect". These childish things will be put away for an adult version of things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
See, the gifts pass away when we get to heaven, not now. Actually, this is another analogy. Compared to how I know my wife now, when I first met her, it was like I saw her dimly like looking at her through a beaten and polished piece of silver. In comparison, when the perfect comes, "By comparison" it will be like seeing face to face. we shall know fully and be fully known. And here's the kicker. The gifts CAN'T pass away when we get to heaven, because "when" they ceased three things will still remain:

1Co 13:13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
Ephesians has a similar passage stating that the gifts will last to a certain point and then proceed no further. ("Until" Eph. 4:13) At the point where they "proceed no further", we have what we will have when the "perfect" comes. 1.) a unity of the faith, 2.) and a unity of the knowledge of the Son of God to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
See, we told you the gifts didn't pass away till we get to heaven? Well, 99.8% of all people who profess to be Christians hold to the 66 books of the bible. There are a number who add a few, and some who subtract a few, but, as fare as the whole of Christianity goes we have a unity of belief in the bible as authoritative. Also, if you are going to gain any knowledge at all about Christ, where are you going to go?

But here's the kicker. Once we reach this "Until" point where the gifts go no further, and we get this unity of the faith and the knowledge of Jesus, there are certain things we are no longer to be:

Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

If we are in heaven when this "Until" point is reached, and we are still worrying about being children tossed here and there by every wind and wave of doctrine like we were under gifts where the prophets decided who was telling the truth, I'm not sure I want to go. It's no different than earth right now.

And what's with still getting taken in by the trickiness of men, by their craftiness, by their deceitful scheming? By gosh that sure as heck is not the heaven I'm looking forward to.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Paul's failure to heal a man of like faith.

I find it interesting that, by the time we get to the writing of this passage, even a man after Paul’s own heart is sick and close to death from sickness. This man’s healing is no longer considered the “norm”, but rather, the rare exception.

Php 2:25 But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my need; 26 because he was longing for you all and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick. 27 For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow.

Here's another one:

2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth, but Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.

But here’s where we started just a few short years prior:

Act 5:14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number, 15 to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. 16 Also the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed.

Act 28:8 And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him. 9 After this had happened, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases were coming to him and getting cured.

What happened?

You are trying to read between the lines, that is, to draw broad sweeping inferences based on little to no evidence. Do you think that the fact that God moves more dramatically at one time than another indicates God is the one who unilaterally causes His power and influence to wax and wane? Does the response of people have anything at all to do with it?

Jesus clearly did more miracles sometimes than He did at others which is why the scriptures sometimes say ALL WERE HEALED yet other times it only says MANY were healed. Another scripture says though a lot of people were present, Jesus chose to heal only one. Receiving from God involves the Holy Spirit interacting with a individual people. Since both God and humanity who was made in the image of God are both self-determining sentient beings is it strange to imagine that that results of our interpersonal encounter would vary in different cases? People relate to God differently. Look at the disciples. Nathaniel believed much more readily than did, say Thomas. However, the Bible says the Great Shepherd knows not only His FLOCK but that He calls individual sheep by name.

 

[Gideon300]

Well, yeah God does still heal. That's a given. The question is whether its thru gifts given to men, as it was with the apostles or Him independently working His power. Different things. But this has already been hashed out.

Hashed out? I wish.

 

[Gideon300]

Interesting note: While the most verses discussing gifts are found in 1st Corinthians, (3 Chapters)they aren't mentioned at all in 2nd Corinthians.

Subject was done and dusted. No need for repetition. The Corinthians obeyed Paul's instructions.

 

[TrustandObey]

Well, yeah God does still heal. That's a given.

Quite true and yes it is a given. This is why we pray for healing.

The question is whether its thru gifts given to men, as it was with the apostles or Him independently working His power.

It seems you understand the OP, many here do not.

Different things.

Correct but those such as Gideon300, CS1 and presidente are incapable of separating the two.

They mindlessly drone on, insisting that others are declaring that God has abandoned mankind.

They will not admit that the OP is about false claims of physical supernatural manifestations not cessation.

They are so heavily invested in the Pentecostal narrative that they will not consider the absurd lack of validity to its claims.

But this has already been hashed out.

Yes but again, not to them.

It's like they are beating a dead horse that was never there.

 

[TrustandObey]

The apparent takeaway here is that

No, this is not the apparent takeaway.

You are totally unaware to the difference between the roof being pulled off in Mark 2:3-4 and the need for repairs on Pentecostal church roofs.

Your comments are mind numbing.

Can anyone here please explain to JimiSurvivor the meaning of the lack of roof repairs on Pentecostal churches and Mark 2:3-4?

His post# 1085 is a classic example of the blindness of the Pentecostal movement.

 

[EmethAlethia]

You are trying to read between the lines, that is, to draw broad sweeping inferences based on little to no evidence. Do you think that the fact that God moves more dramatically at one time than another indicates God is the one who unilaterally causes His power and influence to wax and wane? Does the response of people have anything at all to do with it?

Jesus clearly did more miracles sometimes than He did at others which is why the scriptures sometimes say ALL WERE HEALED yet other times it only says MANY were healed. Another scripture says though a lot of people were present, Jesus chose to heal only one. Receiving from God involves the Holy Spirit interacting with a individual people. Since both God and humanity who was made in the image of God are both self-determining sentient beings is it strange to imagine that that results of our interpersonal encounter would vary in different cases? People relate to God differently. Look at the disciples. Nathaniel believed much more readily than did, say Thomas. However, the Bible says the Great Shepherd knows not only His FLOCK but that He calls individual sheep by name.

I get it. I "want to believe" all kinds of things. I am only analyzing the data, and there is a lot more I didn't include. What's the purpose for gifts? What's the purpose of the word of God?

Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

But every single Christian is "fully equipped" "For every good work" with just the word of God.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be fully (or perfectly) equipped for every good work.

We are perfectly equipped for every good work without any "gift" at all. And remember, the first people who were teachers, administrators, evangelists, pastors, ... had no word of God. The day they became Christians; they were fully qualified and equipped for the roles God assigned them. Miraculously! How many teachers, administrators, pastors, ... do you know who received THAT gift. No school, no mentorship. Walla! Fully qualified and equipped pastor.

1Corinthians is the first N.T. letter to be written and survive. it also has the most references to spiritual gifts. (Three chapters worth) Ephesians comes in at a date, not too far past 1Co. and it has what? 4 verses. Romans has a couple verses... then a thing that absolutely essential for the equipping of the saints and building up of the body of Christ disappears from all mentioning in all the later scriptures.

Could it be that as the "perfect" "neuter" word of God was being completed the gifts were also passing away, ceasing, reaching the point where they would proceed no further? Just looking at evidence. Where does it line up?

 

[Lamar]

The OT is full of references to God's willingness and ability to heal.

This does not prove that the claims of the Pentecostal movement are valid and this is what you are blind toward.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

No, this is not the apparent takeaway.

You are totally unaware to the difference between the roof being pulled off in Mark 2:3-4 and the need for repairs on Pentecostal church roofs.

I usually take what the Bible says literally and try to understand it from that angle before I resort to allegory and typology. Of course, if Jesus, the Apostles or the text itself suggests there is a hidden meaning then I will certainly take that into consideration. What you are doing here is taking an factual narrative and using it as an allegory for some point you want to make. This is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. A student of the word who, as a skillful workman, rightly divides the word of truth. He does not co-opt or add his own ideas to what is written in order to support some position he happens to believe is IMPORTANT and TRUE

This was how the Gnostics treated the word of God. They would take a passage and try to discern hidden meanings which UN-enlightened UN-spiritual people cannot see. To assure themselves of their claims they assumed a position of superiority using such scriptures as The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. Thus they appealed to the ego of those who wanted to be in the inner circle and possess revelation knowledge far beyond that of common Christians.

Your comments are mind numbing.

Can anyone here please explain to JimiSurvivor the meaning of the lack of roof repairs on Pentecostal churches and Mark 2:3-4?

Mark 2:3-4 is a valuable passage from which we can learn a lot. However, to make it mean what YOU want it to mean we have to accept your interpretation as a sort of typological key by which must use to arrive at what you suppose to be the HIDDEN meaning of the passage. When faced with the fact that your ideas are not remotely related to the actual narrative Mark wrote about, you have to assert that the TRUE meaning IS THERE but that it is HIDDEN. In order to see the passage as you do, we would first have to assume that it has something to do with the Pentecostal DENOMINATION (which would not exist for several thousand years).

Next, we would have to assign an allegorical significance of
(1) the house,
(2) the roof of the house as well as
(3) the lack of roof repairs
None of these elements of the narrative are referred to as types or allegories in Mark 2:3-4 nor is this way of interpreting he story mentioned elsewhere in the Bible by the Biblical authors, the Apostles or by Jesus Himself. You have no witnesses affirming what you believe. You and Lamar have presumed these ideas to be true simply because it is POSSIBLE to imaginatively use the various images and elements of the narrative to create a typological construct that suits your purpose of descontructing the experience and beliefs of those who are members of the Pentecostal Church. However, the ideas you ascribe TO the passage are not taken FROM the passage. Instead, they are imported into the text from a set of pre-existing beliefs you hold. This is what is known as EISEGESIS.

The proper definition of eisegesis is:
....the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to justify or confirm a position already held

 

[Lamar]

I usually take what the Bible says literally and try to understand it from that angle before I resort to allegory and typology. Of course, if Jesus, the Apostles or the text itself suggests there is a hidden meaning then I will certainly take that into consideration. What you are doing here is taking an factual narrative and using it as an allegory for some point you want to make. This is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. A student of the word who, as a skillful workman, rightly divides the word of truth. He does not co-opt or add his own ideas to what is written in order to support some position he happens to believe is IMPORTANT and TRUE

This was how the Gnostics treated the word of God. They would take a passage and try to discern hidden meanings which UN-enlightened UN-spiritual people cannot see. To assure themselves of their claims they assumed a position of superiority using such scriptures as The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. Thus they appealed to the ego of those who wanted to be in the inner circle and possess revelation knowledge far beyond that of common Christians.

Mark 2:3-4 is a valuable passage from which we can learn a lot. However, to make it mean what YOU want it to mean we have to accept your interpretation as a sort of typological key by which must use to arrive at what you suppose to be the HIDDEN meaning of the passage. When faced with the fact that your ideas are not remotely related to the actual narrative Mark wrote about, you have to assert that the TRUE meaning IS THERE but that it is HIDDEN. In order to see the passage as you do, we would first have to assume that it has something to do with the Pentecostal DENOMINATION (which would not exist for several thousand years).

Next, we would have to assign an allegorical significance of
(1) the house,
(2) the roof of the house as well as
(3) the lack of roof repairs
None of these elements of the narrative are referred to as types or allegories in Mark 2:3-4 nor is this way of interpreting he story mentioned elsewhere in the Bible by the Biblical authors, the Apostles or by Jesus Himself. You have no witnesses affirming what you believe. You and Lamar have presumed these ideas to be true simply because it is POSSIBLE to imaginatively use the various images and elements of the narrative to create a typological construct that suits your purpose of descontructing the experience and beliefs of those who are members of the Pentecostal Church. However, the ideas you ascribe TO the passage are not taken FROM the passage. Instead, they are imported into the text from a set of pre-existing beliefs you hold. This is what is known as EISEGESIS.

The proper definition of eisegesis is:
....the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to justify or confirm a position already held

Are you trolling? If yes, you are going through a lot of effort.

Are you this dense? Did the point of Mark 2:3-4 and the lack of need for Pentecostal church roof repairs simply go over your head?

Is this AI?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Are you trolling? If yes, you are going through a lot of effort.

Are you this dense? Did the point of Mark 2:3-4 and the lack of need for Pentecostal church roof repairs simply go over your head?

Is this AI?

Don't flatter yourself. I understand the self-invented typology which you have attempted to FOIST on Mark 2:3-4.
Apparently you ascribe some hidden meaning to the fact that the friends of the paralytic had to gain access through to Jesus through the broken roof of the house. However, such ideas are not in the text nor does anyone who was there (Jesus or the Apostles) ever imply that the house, or the broken roof was a typological reference which applies to a particular denomination which would not exist until several millennia had passed. Is this something GOD REVEALED to you?

I do not need to consult an AI to see that your ideas are NOT IN THE TEXT but are the result of EISEGETING your pre-existing opinions into the passage. You are attempting reverse engineer a really wonderful account of healing in order to re-purpose it to use as a quasi-PROPHETIC utterance to validate your own obsession about a particular modern Church.

You have constructed an interpretation that is not there. Where does the Bible say that the house or the roof of the house through which the paralytic's friends gained access to Jesus means anything other than what it literally says? These ideas come solely from your mind and imagination which is where the false prophets words came from:

16 This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are filling you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, [i.e., from their imaginations] not from the mouth of the LORD.
(Jeremiah 26:16)
Anyone can pick a scripture at random and, based on a few vague points of comparison, claim that it applies directly to some issue you feel strongly about. That is not exegesis. That is only a comparison dressed up in Bible language.

 

[TrustandObey]

Don't flatter yourself. I understand the self-invented typology which you have attempted to FOIST on Mark 2:3-4.
Apparently you ascribe some hidden meaning to the fact that the friends of the paralytic had to gain access through to Jesus through the broken roof of the house. However, such ideas are not in the text nor does anyone who was there (Jesus or the Apostles) ever imply that the house, or the broken roof was a typological reference which applies to a particular denomination which would not exist until several millennia had passed. Is this something GOD REVEALED to you?

I do not need to consult an AI to see that your ideas are NOT IN THE TEXT but are the result of EISEGETING your pre-existing opinions into the passage. You are attempting reverse engineer a really wonderful account of healing in order to re-purpose it to use as a quasi-PROPHETIC utterance to validate your own obsession about a particular modern Church.

You have constructed an interpretation that is not there. Where does the Bible say that the house or the roof of the house through which the paralytic's friends gained access to Jesus means anything other than what it literally says? These ideas come solely from your mind and imagination which is where the false prophets words came from:

16 This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are filling you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, [i.e., from their imaginations] not from the mouth of the LORD.
(Jeremiah 26:16)
Anyone can pick a scripture at random and, based on a few vague points of comparison, claim that it applies directly to some issue you feel strongly about. That is not exegesis. That is only a comparison dressed up in Bible language.

Here is the text:

A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on.

Why was the roof in Mark 2 removed? Because people were being supernaturally healed.

Why are the roofs of churches who claim physical supernatural healings are happening still intact? Because people are not being supernaturally healed.

The OP is about the difference between the claims of the Pentecostal movement and what truly happened in the New Testament.

It is this difference that you are unwilling to deal with.

BTW, your pretentious attitude is quite obvious.

 

[Gideon300]

This does not prove that the claims of the Pentecostal movement are valid and this is what you are blind toward.

You are blind towards God's word. You have zero justification for your cessationist viewpoint.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Here is the text:

A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on.

Why was the roof in Mark 2 removed? Because people were being supernaturally healed.

They wanted to help their paralytic friend to get an audience with Jesus because they believed Jesus could heal them. They had no other reason to do it.

Why are the roofs of churches who claim physical supernatural healings are happening still intact? Because people are not being supernaturally healed.

I have another explanation for why those Churche's rooves are still intact and that is that Churches have doors which can admit people who wish to enter. Again, this is an attempt to completely re-engineer the narrative so that it fits your own purposes. This reveals the absurd lengths you and Lamar are willing to go to establish some kind of connection between the narrative in Mark and what youTHINK is taking place in modern Churches. In REALITY, there is NO CONNECTION except in your imaginination. Your claim that the passage has some hidden prophetic significance IS NOWHERE stated in the TEXT Therefore your analysis amounts to nothing but a non-sequitur.

HOW the paralytic's friends gained access to Jesus was not the point of the story. The point was that the they had the kind of faith that perseveres until it receives an answer from God. In this sense, it is similar to the importunity of the widow in the Parable of Unjust Judge.

The OP is about the difference between the claims of the Pentecostal movement and what truly happened in the New Testament.

The problem you have is that Mark 2:3-4 has nothing whatsoever to do with the "claims of the Pentecostal movement and what truly happened in the NT. It is a non-sequitur. Do you think you can make the scriptures mean whatever you want them to mean by simply declaring it to be so?

What proof do you have from the passage that it has ANYTHING at all to do with the modern Pentecostal Church. Think about this: christians have been reading Mark 2:3-4 for millenia? All those generations had no frame of reference to to make a connection between the passage and the interpretation you and Lamar ascribe to it Does that sound at all probable to you?

It is this difference that you are unwilling to deal with.

BTW, your pretentious attitude is quite obvious.

I am not unwilling to deal with your arguments I just consider them not only unproven but UNPROVABLE. In what way does my disagreement with YOU make ME pretentious? I have presented rational exegetical reasons for rejecting your and Lamar's interpretation.. I have been very straightforward about what I what I believe and why I believe it. You are the one whois to resorting ad hominem arguments because you can come up with no solid evidence with which to defend your hypothesis.

 

[lrs68]

It's a Theology!

Ironic as it may sound but the Reformed Methodist Church in the latter 1800s experienced the modern day version of Speaking in Tongues and caused a split from the Reformed Dogma.

It just happened to people who preached it had Ceased and it continues to this very day.

 

[wattie]

It's a Theology!

Ironic as it may sound but the Reformed Methodist Church in the latter 1800s experienced the modern day version of Speaking in Tongues and caused a split from the Reformed Dogma.

It just happened to people who preached it had Ceased and it continues to this very day.

What's the difference between modern day version of it, and the Biblical version?

 

[lrs68]

What's the difference between modern day version of it, and the Biblical version?

Theoretically nothing. It's just the fact that most Denominations scorched the idea and tried to bury it. Even the Methodist tried then in the 1800s one day after centuries and generations of not believing it it just happened and caused a rift and big split.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Here is the text:

A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on.

Why was the roof in Mark 2 removed? Because people were being supernaturally healed.

Of course, they would not have been trying to gain access to Jesus if they did not BELIEVE He could heal their friend. That goes without saying...but there is additional reason they decided to get him to Jesus by making a hole in the roof and that was because the house was already so full of people that they could enter through the door. Their very creative solution was to make a hole in the roof and to lower the man down to where Jesus was. There was no hidden typological significance to what they did. Their reasons, while based on faith, were purely practical.

Why are the roofs of churches who claim physical supernatural healings are happening still intact? Because people are not being supernaturally healed.

Why are the rooves of Churches intact? I imagine because they have doors through which to enter.

The OP is about the difference between the claims of the Pentecostal movement and what truly happened in the New Testament.

If you hold the OP in such high regard why did you not address that directly instead of introducing a far-fetched symbology into the text.

It is this difference that you are unwilling to deal with.

You have not made anything remotely close to a convincing defense for your hypothesis yet you wish I would just, what, accept it by faith without stating my objections?

BTW, your pretentious attitude is quite obvious.

In what way have I been "pretentious?" I am stating something I believe in the most forthright manner I can. I even posted this addition to what I said to make myself and my understanding of the passage even clearer. Your response was to use ad hominem invectives against me personally.