Calvinism is Gospel !

[Cameron143]

I like to dig a little deeper than you do...

Another odd way of saying...you're right.

 

[Mem]

My point was that he was known before he was a believer, same with John the baptist. He was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb.

How did he get the Holy Ghost without believing first?

Jeremiah is a picture of all them who shall believe So was Paul Gal 1 15

15 ;But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Even a fetus can 'see' God and be mindful of Him, as shown by as far as John and Jeremiah's, among others, memory of Him goes. Do any of you remember Him from the womb?

 

[Cameron143]

You forget that God has other attributes, like grace. When man makes a decision to heed God's word, God shows grace. God no longer needed to destroy Nineveh because they repented at the preaching of his word. See Hezekiah for another plain example.

Because Hezekiah cried out to the Lord, the Lord heard his prayer and instead of dying as the Lord stated, the Lord spared him and added 15 more years to his life.

2 Kings 20
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,
3 I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.
6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

Men make the decision to heed God's word because of His grace. That's the new covenant promise...Ezekiel 36:26-27. Salvation is by grace. This means that God exercises His power towards an individual and salvation is the result. Man's response is to the manifestation of God's power in/on/through him.

 

[John146]

If Ninevah's repentance didn’t come from God but instead came from their choice, then for what purpose

It all goes back to God's promise to preserve the seed line of Genesis 3:15. Satan was determined to eliminate the seed by any means, mostly by destruction. Nineveh was Israel's enemy and had violence in their heart. As God did many times protecting his called out people (which contained the seed), God would use force. This is the case with Nineveh. God was going to destroy them, but since they repented at the preaching of Jonah, God did not have to destroy them because they were no longer an immediate threat.

All the bloodshed and violence throughout the OT is all based around Genesis 3:15.

 

[John146]

Men make the decision to heed God's word because of His grace.

Agreed, if God didn't want to show grace to a fallen world, he wouldn't have given us his word to heed. Man has a choice, always had a choice to heed God's word (if/then statements all throughout).

 

[HeIsHere]

Why Calvinism is NOT the Gospel!!

A. God has to regenerate you: regeneration precedes believing (faith = the work of believing)
B. You do not believe and be saved, you are saved in order that you will believe.
C. Every person who ultimately rejects God does so because God withholds love, grace, and regeneration.

Calvinism teaches that life is given to some so that the may have life.
Completely nonsensical.

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52

Was that a good wow or a bad wow?

Good

 

[rogerg]

It all goes back to God's promise to preserve the seed line of Genesis 3:15. Satan was determined to eliminate the seed by any means, mostly by destruction. Nineveh was Israel's enemy and had violence in their heart. As God did many times protecting his called out people (which contained the seed), God would use force. This is the case with Nineveh. God was going to destroy them, but since they repented at the preaching of Jonah, God did not have to destroy them because they were no longer an immediate threat.

All the bloodshed and violence throughout the OT is all based around Genesis 3:15.

Not possible. Without having an understanding of the sign of Jonah, they would have no knowledge of how to or what to
repent from, or what to repent to. God didn't just use Jonah in the whale for no reason - He used it as the foundation and basis of Jonah's preaching. The words Jonah spoke, of themselves, were insufficient to invoke true repentance.

 

[brightfame52]

Even a fetus can 'see' God and be mindful of Him, as shown by as far as John and Jeremiah's, among others, memory of Him goes. Do any of you remember Him from the womb?

Huh

 

[John146]

Not possible. Without having an understanding of the sign of Jonah, they would have no knowledge of how to or what to
repent from, or what to repent to. God didn't just use Jonah in the whale for no reason - He used it as the foundation and basis of Jonah's preaching. The words Jonah spoke, of themselves, were insufficient to invoke true repentance.

Read the passage again. They repented in hopes of changing the mind of God. It might work. It's our only chance.

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[John146]

Not possible. Without having an understanding of the sign of Jonah, they would have no knowledge of how to or what to
repent from, or what to repent to. God didn't just use Jonah in the whale for no reason - He used it as the foundation and basis of Jonah's preaching. The words Jonah spoke, of themselves, were insufficient to invoke true repentance.

God would later use what happened to Jonah as a type of Jesus Christ. "As Jonah...so shall the son of man be."

 

[Cameron143]

Agreed, if God didn't want to show grace to a fallen world, he wouldn't have given us his word to heed. Man has a choice, always had a choice to heed God's word (if/then statements all throughout).

I appreciate the discussion.

Grace and peace.

 

[rogerg]

Read the passage again. They repented in hopes of changing the mind of God. It might work. It's our only chance.

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yes, but without the "what" - with the "what" being an understanding of what caused God's anger - their repentance would not have been based upon satisfying what God had communicated through Jonah's sign, and therefore meaningless. Without having an understanding of the reason for the preaching through Jonah's sign, would they have even cared about it because they would not have understood what he was talking about? For them to just take a stab at blindly repenting from something - should they have even had a desire to do so - that would not be repentance. For repentance to truly be repentance, the one repenting must have had a change of heart and a sincere desired to repent from it. In the spiritual realm, that can only happen when God gives someone that repentance. vs 9 is not saying they did not know what caused God's judgment against them because they knew it from Jonah's sign; they were saying that they didn't know if their repenting would suffice to remove God's anger against them, whether He would repent from it.

Again, if Jonah's sign had no spiritual significance, why then did God cause it to happen in the first place, and why then did Jesus later choose to quote it so visibly in relation to eternal judgment?

 

[Roger316]

So then human can absolve themselves of any responsibility for the actions or their deeds?

It would seem that way. But we both know that isn't true. How can it be that God creates everything that exists and yet Man is morally responsible for his actions?

 

[HeIsHere]

It would seem that way. But we both know that isn't true. How can it be that God creates everything that exists and yet Man is morally responsible for his actions?

Do you see a distinction between create and control?

 

[brightfame52]

Read the passage again. They repented in hopes of changing the mind of God. It might work. It's our only chance.

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Salvation is according to purpose not chance 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Roger316]

Why Calvinism is NOT the Gospel!!

A. God has to regenerate you: regeneration precedes believing (faith = the work of believing)
B. You do not believe and be saved, you are saved in order that you will believe.
C. Every person who ultimately rejects God does so because God withholds love, grace, and regeneration.

Calvinism teaches that life is given to some so that the may have life.
Completely nonsensical.

A. God has to regenerate you:
"Regeneration" is a theological term that points to something real. But the term is not in the Bible. What biblical process does the Biblical term point to?

B. You do not believe and be saved, you are saved in order that you will believe.
The Gospel of John traces the activity of believing through many examples and many accounts. What does John's gospel reveal about why people don't believe?

C. Every person who ultimately rejects God does so because God withholds love, grace, and regeneration.
We know this isn't true. But the Bible isn't silent on the nature of man. Why does mankind reject God, even in light of God's abundant generosity in love and grace?

 

[Genez]

As long as one is in a lost condition, they cannot believe the Gospel. Once one is saved they will believe the Gospel 1 Cor 1:18

This is it.

Once a soul is drawn by the Father to completeness?
Then, the Father hands that drawn soul over to the Gospel to make their salvation entered into!

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, ​

and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and ​

still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes ​

to me, I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to ​

do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose ​

none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will ​

is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will ​

raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35-40​

The Father must do a preparatory work in a person before they come to the Gospel which God intends for them to believe.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up ​

at the last day." John 6:44​

Calvinists who can not understand how the mechanics of the human condition and functions. Are assuming that the sin nature resides in the human soul, and not solely in the flesh. Therefore, God must force salvation upon a person lest they never believe.

But it is the power of God's grace will suppress the sin nature in the flesh, so a soul can consider what they think of Christ.
Therefore? When grace is introduced into the equation.

Man while under the influence of grace suppressing his flesh is potentially at that moment not totally depraved.
It is only the soul that willfully rejects God while under the grace to suppress his flesh that fits the classification of 'total depravity.' For he would reject God even if he had no sin nature! Just like Satan and his angels rejected God!

grace and peace......

 

[Roger316]

Do you see a distinction between create and control?

A quick apology up front: I know everyone here prefers brevity, so I’ll keep this as tight as possible. Create and control are not the same thing. To create is to bring something into existence with its own nature, limits, and capacities; to control is to manipulate something already made from the outside. God’s sovereignty rests in the first reality, not the second. Because He creates all things—including their purposes, boundaries, and futures—His rule is not the rule of a manager inside the system but of the One whose being is above it. Creation establishes dependence; control merely directs behavior. That’s why God’s sovereignty points to His transcendence: He governs the world not as a creature within it, but as the Creator who gives it its very being.

I can give you an example of transcendence if you like.

 

[Genez]

My point was that he was known before he was a believer, same with John the baptist. He was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb.

How did he get the Holy Ghost without believing first?

Before he was in the womb? What was he?
He had no flesh!

God was dealing with Jeremiah strictly by means of his soul!
The sin nature resides in our flesh. Not our soul.
It is the fallen flesh that influences our souls.

grace and peace ........