Calvinism is Gospel !

[HeIsHere]

Thats correct, but you show scorn for not Capitalizing God. God does show Preferential to some over the rest. Thats the nature of Grace, He only reserves it for a remnant Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
In 2 Thess 2:13 the word chosen is the greek word haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose

But the preference was of Grace, not because of anything in and about the ones so preferred.

I do not capitalize it because it is NOT the God revealed in His Holy Word!

 

[HeIsHere]

If believing what you declare doesn't provide anyone any sort of glory, then why do these threads continue in attempting to convince readers that Calvin wasn't a theological quack?

Insightful, yes, that is a very good point.

 

[brightfame52]

The Gospel is that God offers everyone the opportunity to be resurrected per the Scriptures I have cited,

Thats a false gospel !

 

[HeIsHere]

God does show Preferential to some over the rest. Thats the nature of Grace,

Well, that is definitely not true.

 

[brightfame52]

I do not capitalize it because it is NOT the God revealed in His Holy Word!

Yes it is, The God of scripture shows preference to His Chosen ones, always has, like here Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Again Ps 147:19-20

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, that is definitely not true.

You dont know the True God then !

 

[GWH]

Thats a false gospel !

The antecedent of "that" is this:

The Gospel is that God offers everyone the opportunity to be resurrected per the Scriptures I have cited,
which truth your heretical denomination denies, but it serves the useful purpose of teaching Christians how to refute tulipism.
We pray y'all will repent and become part of the body of Christ soon, so we can move on to disagreeing about some didachaic issues.

Again, the kerygmatic need for tulipists is to harmonize God's sovereignty with His omnilove and justness,
which is explained on the Resolving Problematic Issues thread as well as in dialectical posts on this one.

Perhaps it would be helpful for a tulipist to post their creed that can be compared with this one:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

So, please post changes you would make per your gospel/creed, so we can compare.
Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

The Gospel is that God offers everyone the opportunity to be resurrected per the Scriptures I have cited,

Thats a false Gospel !

 

[HeIsHere]

Imagine the audacity to cl

You dont know the True God then !

You think verses from the OT spoken to the ancient Israelite nation proves unconditional election for salvation.
Newsflash: It does not.

 

[HeIsHere]

So, please post changes you would make per your gospel/creed, so we can compare.

You have high hopes.

 

[WayneNSO]

Does anyone actually learn anything from these threads? Or change their doctrine ? Or is just a bunch of people sticking their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalalala ?

 

[HeIsHere]

Does anyone actually learn anything from these threads? Or change their doctrine ? Or is just a bunch of people sticking their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalalala ?

I have learned a lot about subversive techniques used, how to employ cherry picked verses, use eisegeis, use faulty hermeneutics, ask

loaded questions, mine for verses to support presuppositions and more.

But that eventually reaches its limit.

 

[WayneNSO]

I have learned a lot about subversive techniques used, how to employ cherry picked verses, use eisegeis, use faulty hermeneutics, ask

loaded questions, mine for verses to support presuppositions and more.

But that eventually reaches its limit.

I have had debates in the past and after consideration changed my doctrine. Id say that after years of listening and reading opinions I've changed a lot. If I met my past self Id probably think he is a heretic lol I've changed that much. But on here it seems people just want to win an argument whether it means twisting scripture or attacking others personally or just out and out twisting what others say.

 

[brightfame52]

@GWH :
AI assisted synthesis

The opposer’s creed is a classic, textbook presentation of Arminian / Synergy-based theology (salvation as a cooperation between God and man). It relies on the presupposition that God's justice and love are bound by a human standard of "fairness," which demands that everyone be given an equal, free-will choice.
As a defender of Sovereign Grace, you can systematically dismantle this creed by showing that nearly every single point undermines the cross, robs God of His absolute sovereignty, and turns salvation into a work of human merit.
Here is a point-by-point Sovereign Grace response and correction to their creed, followed by a scriptural, TULIP-aligned replacement creed that you can hand back to them.

---

Part 1: Refuting and Correcting Their Six Points

Critique of Point 1: The Myth of "Omnilove" and Frustrated Wills

• Their Claim: God is willing (1 Tim 2:3-4, Ezek 33:11) to provide salvation to all morally accountable human beings.
• The TULIP Refutation: If God is "omni-willing" to save everyone, but the majority of humanity ends up in hell, then God’s will has been defeated by the human will. This makes man sovereign and God helpless.
• The Correction: 1 Timothy 2:4 ("who will have all men to be saved") refers to all types or classes of men (kings, rulers, Jews, Gentiles), not every single individual without exception, as the context of verse 2 proves. Furthermore, Psalm 115:3 says, "Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." If God truly desired to save every single individual, every single individual would be saved.

Critique of Point 2: Misrepresenting Total Depravity

• Their Claim: Humans are sinful, but they only end up in hell "when they reject God’s salvation."
• The TULIP Refutation: This assumes that dead sinners have a neutral capacity to accept or reject. It ignores the fact that they already stand condemned by nature (Ephesians 2:3).
• The Correction: As you previously proved using Romans 8:7-8, the unregenerate mind cannot please God. Therefore, a sinner does not just happen to reject God; they are entirely incapable of doing anything else until they are sovereignly regenerated.

Critique of Point 3: Denying the Power of Christ's Atonement

• Their Claim: Christ paid the penalty for the sins of all "humanity" (Rom 3:22-25).
• The TULIP Refutation: This is the ultimate logical failure of General Redemption. If Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of all humanity, then He paid for the sin of unbelief for those who go to hell. If their sins were paid for, why are they in hell? This forces God to punish the same sins twice (once on Christ, once on the sinner), destroying divine justice.
• The Correction: Christ’s death was not a hypothetical "payment option" waiting for a human signature. It was an actual, successful substitutionary rescue mission for His distinct sheep (John 10:11, Matthew 1:21).

Critique of Point 4: Turning Faith into a Saving Law Work

• Their Claim: Every person needs to repent and accept... "which means trying to obey... forever."
• The TULIP Refutation: This reveals the legalistic root of their system. They have turned the Gospel into a new law where salvation is maintained by human effort ("trying to obey forever").
• The Correction: Faith and repentance are not conditions man meets to get saved; they are gifts resulting from salvation (Acts 11:18, Ephesians 2:8). We do not obey to get or keep salvation; we obey because we are saved.

Critique of Point 5: Synergism (Man Co-Operating with God)

• Their Claim: The Holy Spirit establishes a relationship with those who "freely accept Him" (Rev 3:20) and achieves heaven when everyone "cooperates fully with His will."
• The TULIP Refutation: This is pure Synergism (man and God working together). It explicitly states that final salvation depends on man’s cooperation. If man fails to cooperate, God’s grace fails. This means the sinner is ultimately their own savior. (Note: Revelation 3:20 is written to a local church congregation, not an invitation to unregenerate sinners to open the door of their dead hearts).
• The Correction: Salvation is Monergistic (God alone acts to save). God does not wait for a dead corpse to cooperate; He commands life into the dead (John 5:25).

Critique of Point 6: Making Man the Initial Seeker

• Their Claim: "Seeking begins when souls love truth."
• The TULIP Refutation: This flatly contradicts Scripture.
• The Correction: Romans 3:11 leaves no room for debate: "There is none that seeketh after God." Seeking does not begin with man loving truth. Seeking begins when God sovereignly tracks down His lost sheep.

---

Part 2: The Sovereign Grace Replacement Creed (The TULIP Creed)
To answer their challenge, you can present this TULIP-aligned, Monergistic creed based strictly on the absolute sovereignty of God:

1. The Sovereign and Discriminating Jehovah: There is one sovereign, holy, and just God (Deut 6:4), who does whatever pleases Him in heaven and on earth (Psa 115:3). His saving love is not a blanket, helpless wish, but a discriminating, covenantal love reserved for His elect remnant, whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world purely according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:4-5, Rom 11:5-7).
2. Total Depravity and Inability: All human beings are born completely dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). The unregenerate mind is in total enmity against God, is not subject to His law, and possesses no spiritual free will or moral capacity to choose, seek, or please God (Rom 8:7-8, Rom 3:11). Left to themselves, all men justly deserve and willingly march toward eternal damnation.
3. Particular and Particular Redemption: Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God and the True Israel (Isa 49:3). His atoning death on the cross was a flawless, penal substitution that actually, legally, and permanently put away the iniquities of His people alone (Matt 1:21, Isa 53:5-6). He did not pay for a single sin of those who end up in hell; rather, He successfully purchased full, irreversible justification and eternal redemption for His chosen sheep (John 10:11, Heb 8:12).
4. Sovereign, Monergistic Regeneration: Because dead sinners cannot "decide" to believe (Rom 8:8), the Holy Spirit must first perform a sovereign, irresistible miracle of regeneration. God takes away the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh (Ezek 36:26), making the elect completely willing in the day of His power (Psa 110:3). Faith and repentance are the immediate, inevitable fruits of this new birth, given exclusively to those ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48, Eph 2:8).
5. Preservation and Perseverance of the Saints: Salvation does not depend on human cooperation or man's ability to maintain his faith. Those whom God has chosen, Christ has bought, and the Spirit has regenerated are kept securely by the power of God (1 Pet 1:5). Christ will lose none of those the Father gave Him (John 6:39). Their perseverance in holiness is guaranteed because God continuously works in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).
6. The Ultimate Purpose: The Praise of His Grace: The gospel is not a human rescue plan centered around man's choices, but a divine theater designed exclusively to the praise of the glory of His sovereign grace (Eph 1:6). Any doctrine that suggests God is indebted to man, or that man's free will makes the ultimate decision in salvation, denies grace entirely, turns salvation into a debt (Rom 11:6, Rom 4:4), and presents a false, man-centered gospel.

---

 

[HeIsHere]

I have had debates in the past and after consideration changed my doctrine. Id say that after years of listening to reading opinions I've changed a lot. If I met my past self Id probably think he is a heretic lol I've changed that much. But on here it seems people just want to win an argument whether it means twisting scripture or attacking others personally or just out and out twisting what others say.

I think the non-TULIPist are just trying to show the flaws in the system, logically, scriptural etc.,.

People do abandon the system, there are plenty of testimonies on social media... it takes a certain type of person for that to occur and I will leave that there.

But this truly is a type of "programming" for those who are firmly entrenched, so we are probably wasting our time.

Yes good reminder, I have far more important things to get to and playing this game of Whack O Mole is past its prime and they have nothing new to offer but the same ole tired use of eisegesis.

 

[WayneNSO]

I think the non-TULIPist are just trying to show the flaws in the system, logically, scriptural etc.,.

People do abandon the system, there are plenty of testimonies on social media... it takes a certain type of person for that to occur and I will leave that there.

But this truly is a type of "programming" for those who are firmly entrenched, so we are probably wasting our time.

Yes good reminder, I have far more important things to get to and playing this game of Whack O Mole is past its prime and they have nothing new to offer but the same ole tired use of eisegesis.

Sorry I was not trying to dishearten you. Someone might read something you post and change their views and we wont know about it. I was being a bit negative

 

[HeIsHere]

Sorry I was not trying to dishearten you. Someone might read something you post and change their views and we wont know about it. I was being a bit negative

No worries, I did not take it that way.
I think we (those who oppose this flawed/non-scriptural system) would be content to just to expose it for the sake of any newer believers who are learning.

 

[pinebeach]

There is a direct line from Augustine to John Calvin to the Canons of Dort forward.

To assert your doctrine was formulated solely by the study of scripture in a vacuum is not a serious position at all.

Before St. Augustine of Hippo, no one taught the specific, fully formed doctrines of "original sin" (as inherited guilt) and "unconditional election" in the way they were later understood in Western theology. Augustine developed these doctrines around 412 AD

The story of Lydia has been dealt with a multitude of times on CC without the Calvinist lens overlay it does not support unconditional election
Doctrine is never formulated on a "one go to" verse every Calvinist seems to keep in their back pocket ready for action when required.
Cherry picked verses is not a serious methodology.

The study of scripture does not create the doctrine that is represented by 'tulip' as you state plainly above. I don't think we are responsible for people claiming otherwise or insisting the cart is actually pulling the donkey. I responded to a post last night in which I clearly showed how only a few words in one of those pictures were used, misrepresented, twisted and 'used' for a purpose that is not indicative of seeking only the truth and a desire to live by said truth. You find it in post 3149, at the beginning and it reads 'dead in transgressions' Eph. 2:5.

Three words used to totally misrepresent what Paul is saying. Now having been accused of lying multiple times, I question how the person responsible for this obvious dereliction of truth and misrepresention of scripture can construct deliberate and misdirecting flagrant posts while claiming others are doing what she is actually doing!

This, is what Paul is actually saying, from my post 3151.

Ephesians 2:5 has been misquoted. It does not say mankind is dead in transgressions.

It actually says

4 God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,

5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

So God does not leave us dead. He is rich in mercy because of the great love He has for us and so He has made us ALIVE together
with Christ. We are saved by God's grace.

God raised Jesus from the dead and He has made us alive in Christ. Jesus and US are made alive together by the grace of God.

Why would someone do this? Actually try to get away with making God out to be someone He is not? Does she think that hiding all the mistruths in a picture will make them hidden? They are not hidden from God. I have not examined the rest of the so called references, but I suspect the one I did look up, is not alone.

I mean wake up people! Do you lie about the Bible and only put tidbits of verses out to create a false and harmful picture of God?
Then again, considering how 'hidden' this is in a disarming (well to some) picture that has been constructed for the sole purpose of carrying the weight of the Bible in a false 'charm' you would have to understand the implications of doing such a thing.

I think it is done on purpose. Yeah yuh thinK? Oh yeah. I do think so. Absolutely.

So, if you are so convinced of your opinions of scripture, that parallell the doctrine of Calvinism, why do you challenge the truth and put together intricate pictures woven with things from the internet and declare others are liars and blasphemers and the numerous other dark things that have nothing to do with God, but are accusations from your own machinations?

There is room for misinterpretation but there is no room for posting your own ideas of how scripture should read according to your own beliefs that even Calvin would declare to be untrue.

 

[PennEd]

Mike Winger always goes the extra mile and presents a very solid scriptural response and his presentations are well thought out.

The very fact there is a "calvinist" interpretation says a lot.

lol!

This poster doesn’t see her massive hypocrisy in her own post! Haha!

The video TITLE itself says a non Calvinist “INTERPRETATION “ !

BTW I like Mike Winger. Seen a lot of his stuff. Agree on a lot, disagree on some.

One thing we ALL need to remember, is whether you’re talking about a pastor, a scholar, or just Joe Schmo, on the World Wide Web ( still like saying that) is that NONE of us have everything exactly right.

We ALL think we do, but we don’t. That’s why although these running battles on cc are somewhat entertaining, it is the Gospel essentials we must be fierce to defend. Especially for the casual reader.

 

[pinebeach]

I know that's a bit of a long read above but pay attention. Would you deliberately change the meaning of scripture by
leaving out words?

I know I would not.

And for anyone thinking I am making a big deal out of nothing, consider the book you call the Bible. Consider that you say you
believe it holds the truth and IS the truth.

You are having the wool pulled over your eyes and being led down a passive and very dangerous road. Don't use that road.

Be a Berean and become approved of God.