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Roger316 said:
Dead in transgressions doesn't refer to inability as some claim; it refers to the penalty of sin, i.e. sentenced to eternal punishment.
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Colossians2-13John5-21.png

Colossians 2 v 13, John 5 v 21 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.
 
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Magenta said:
Colossians2-13John5-21.png

Colossians 2 v 13, John 5 v 21 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.
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They are just unable to believe that God actually knows what the meaning of "dead" is.
 
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Roger316 said:
Speaking for myself, I rarely change my mind but it does happen. I gain the most benefit from the process of defending my position. I force myself to take the other person seriously and remind myself that I might be wrong. So I am best when I take the time to investigate the issue before I respond. Sometimes I check with my Bible teacher. "Do I have this right?"
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Please post something you have learned via CC discussions on the thread I just started for that purpose.
 
rogerg said:
They are just unable to believe that God actually knows what the meaning of "dead" is.
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Obviously it has various levels of meaning and application, but nobody dies the second death until
the end of the age following the resurrection and judgment of all. Dead in your transgressions and
sins, dead in the uncircumcision of your flesh, definitely refers to the spiritual state of man prior to
regeneration and/or heart circumcision. Just as a physically deceased person is unaware of their
surroundings, a spiritually dead person is insensitive and unresponsive to God. Romans says, that
person does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. FWers deny this inability and claim it does
not exist because they do not have eyes to see, are devoid of spiritual understanding, and further
claim everyone hears when Jesus let us know the exact opposite. The unregenerate person's life
is controlled by "the course of this world" and their own worldly desires. FWers deny that man is
the creature Scripture tells us he is. They do this because they are Pelagian heretics. Spiritual
death denotes a total rupture of fellowship with God, leaving people under the sentence of
eternal death until or unless they are made alive in Christ. Those not in Christ do not belong to
Him. The Son gives life to whom He chooses, but you will find FWers mocking such Biblical Truths.
@Roger316 this was not directed at you.
 
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Roger316 said:
Dead in transgressions doesn't refer to inability as some claim; it refers to the penalty of sin, i.e. sentenced to eternal punishment.
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Let me ask you this: if "dead in sin" doesn't mean fully and completely spiritually dead and incapacitated in all ways (can someone be somewhat dead?) then why does God make those whom He saves spiritually alive through spiritual rebirth? And by that rebirth, given the attributes of the saved - attributes they didn't have prior to that nor are able to give to themselves - those which the Holy Spirit must give? If someone is already spiritually alive as you say, then how then can they be made alive again on top of already being alive?
 
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Magenta said:
Obviously it has various levels of meaning and application, but nobody dies the second death until
the end of the age following the resurrection and judgment of all. Dead in your transgressions and
sins, dead in the uncircumcision of your flesh, definitely refers to the spiritual state of man prior to
regeneration and/or heart circumcision. Just as a physically deceased person is unaware of their
surroundings, a spiritually dead person is insensitive and unresponsive to God. Romans says, that
person does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. FWers deny this inability and claim it does
not exist because they do not have eyes to see, are devoid of spiritual understanding, and further
claim everyone hears when Jesus let us know the exact opposite. The unregenerate person's life
is controlled by "the course of this world" and their own worldly desires. FWers deny that man is
the creature Scripture tells us he is. They do this because they are Pelagian heretics. Spiritual
death denotes a total rupture of fellowship with God, leaving people under the sentence of
eternal death until or unless they are made alive in Christ. Those not in Christ do not belong to
Him. The Son gives life to whom He chooses, but you will find FWers mocking such Biblical Truths.
@Roger316 this was not directed at you.
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Absolutely, and that is why the death at the end of the age is called the second death. For it to be second, the
first had already occurred.
 
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rogerg said:
Let me ask you this: if "dead in sin" doesn't mean fully and completely spiritually dead and incapacitated in all ways (can someone be somewhat dead?) then why does God make those whom He saves spiritually alive through spiritual rebirth? And by that rebirth, given the attributes of the saved - attributes they didn't have prior to that nor are able to give to themselves - those which the Holy Spirit must give? If someone is already spiritually alive as you say, then how then can they be made alive again on top of already being alive?
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The meaning of a phrase depends on the context. Can we talk about a specific passage that discusses being spiritually dead and spiritually alive?
 
rogerg said:
Yes, but first explain in general terms what being born-again consists of. What actually happens to a person at that moment?
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Made alive in Christ, at which time one is able to hear and respond to the gospel message.
Before then, not being in Christ, you can neither hear nor submit or obey and are blinded
to Truth by the god of this world and are opposed to the Spiritual things of God, being
hostile in your mind towards Him; the gospel message is heard as foolishness. Oh, I
"chipped in" ... I hope you do not mind. And some will call quoting Scripture using
some kind of cheat sheet or adding to the Word of God because they are dishonest.
Or claim like heishere does that I call anyone who disagrees with me a liar, which
is just another one of her many lies. She has zero discernment but has an agenda.
 
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Magenta said:
Made alive in Christ, at which time one is able to hear and respond to the gospel message.
Before then, not being in Christ, you can neither hear nor submit or obey and are blinded
to Truth by the god of this world and are opposed to the Spiritual things of God, being
hostile in your mind towards Him; the gospel message is heard as foolishness. Oh, I
"chipped in" ... I hope you do not mind. And some will call quoting Scripture using
some kind of cheat sheet or adding to the Word of God because they are dishonest.
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I am in total and complete agreement with you, Magenta. I was just curious how Roger316 would answer it
given his explanation that dead doesn't mean dead - how he would get the two to fit together
 
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rogerg said:
Sorry, I only just noticed that while rereading your post. Of course I don’t mind—on the contrary, I value and appreciate all of your input.
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Well, one of the gaslighters here called my contributing to an ongoing discussion "chipping in" as if
I have no right to participate when and as I feel led. Of course he carried on in that gaslighting manner
for a number of posts and then falsely accused me a number of times and claimed he was not even
speaking to me when he clearly was, as he had quoted me. Well, he may have already been falsely
accusing me, it is on ongoing problem, but continued in that vein as many of these FWers do. Such
as he later pretended I was going back and forth in my opinion as he was. He's double minded
and then tries to stick it on other people, and it really shows his confusion, such as implying a
person is free before they are set free and then they are not free after they have been set free.
He never answered whether he was set free in Christ because it would show he was wrong.
Just like John refusing to admit he was a sheep. Any way they can reject or deny or contradict
anything we say goes with them. That includes all the lies they tell which their comrades love.

No need to apologize! We may be in the minority but the remnant always is.

PS ~ I hope @BillyBob is okay...
 
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Magenta said:
Well, one of the gaslighters here called my contributing to an ongoing discussion "chipping in" as if
I have no right to participate when and as I feel led. Of course he carried on in that gaslighting manner
for a number of posts and then falsely accused me a number of times and claimed he was not even
speaking to me when he clearly was, as he had quoted me. Well, he may have already been falsely
accusing me, it is on ongoing problem, but continued in that vein as many of these FWers do. Such
as he later pretended I was going back and forth in my opinion as he was. He's double minded
and then tries to stick it on other people, and it really shows his confusion, such as implying a
person is free before they are set free and then they are not free after they have been set free.
He never answered whether he was set free in Christ because it would show he was wrong.
Just like John refusing to admit he was a sheep. Any way they can reject or deny or contradict
anything we say goes with them. That includes all the lies they tell which their comrades love.
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Yes, I have recognized those characteristics in the FWers myself. They eventually paint themselves
into a corner from which they cannot extricate themselves because their theology is plain wrong.
When they hit that point, they start shucking and jiving because they have no other option available to them.
From your posts, I think I have gained an understanding as to your beliefs, and there isn't anything I can think of
with which I disagree - and you always include scripture as corroboration, so as far as I'm concerned,
feel free to chip in whenever you feel the desire to do so.
 
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Roger316 said:
Dead in transgressions doesn't refer to inability as some claim; it refers to the penalty of sin, i.e. sentenced to eternal punishment.
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Yes it does.

1 Corinthians 2:14
​

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We were ALL the natural man before God saved us. You were a natural man, spiritually dead, before God drew you to Christ, and quickened your faith He gave you to believe the Gospel.

Here is the passage that says you were just like all the other natural men:

Ephesians 2
​

By Grace Through Faith​

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
 
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