License to Sin

[HeIsHere]

How isn't it? The context/topic is false prophets. How isn't that fruits of the "Holy Spirit" when it's talking about prophets? That makes no sense. Are there prophets without a spirit speaking to them?

False prophets produce more false prophets.

God is not calling believers to judge people's inward life but what they produce.
A good cross analysis within the words of Christ Jesus helps pin down what is in view in a passage.

 

[Ceph]

Samson, a great big sinner saved by grace.

It takes No effort or works to believe in Christ. What's hard to
believe that this was 1949.

Amen.
We've been having a lot of 'lost arts' in media and overall design since godlessness arose in those respective offices.
It seems like the Godly have been holding the gates to their enemies all this time.

 

[Delvianna]

False prophets produce more false prophets.

God is not calling believers to judge people's inward life but what they produce.
A good cross analysis within the words of Christ Jesus helps pin down what is in view in a passage.

I never said believers can look into someone's inward life. My argument is that Jesus explicitly teaches that a tree is identified by its fruit. Fruit is external and observable.

If someone's life is characterized by unrepentant sin, that is bad fruit. That's not me claiming omniscience about their heart, that's me applying Jesus' own analogy.

Your statement, "God is not calling believers to judge people's inward life but what they produce," actually supports my point. Sinful conduct is part of what a person produces. If someone gets drunk, you can see it. If someone curses up a storm and cuts people down, you can see it. If someone kills someone, obvious. You don't need to see inwardly to know they're producing bad fruit. That's the point of the analogy.

 

[HeIsHere]

I never said believers can look into someone's inward life. My argument is that Jesus explicitly teaches that a tree is identified by its fruit. Fruit is external and observable.

If someone's life is characterized by unrepentant sin, that is bad fruit. That's not me claiming omniscience about their heart, that's me applying Jesus' own analogy.

Your statement, "God is not calling believers to judge people's inward life but what they produce," actually supports my point. Sinful conduct is part of what a person produces. If someone gets drunk, you can see it. If someone curses up a storm and cuts people down, you can see it. If someone kills someone, obvious. You don't need to see inwardly to know they're producing bad fruit. That's the point of the analogy.

The bad fruit is not about lifestyle, that is just your modern day interpretation, it is about false teachers and the their false doctrine and the more false teachers they produce... meaning those who follow them around and also have the same false doctrine.

We can see this very clearly with Jesus' instructions to his disciples. John 15.

They are being sent out to bear much good fruit, >>> this is for certain speaking about more followers of

The Way,

why because they have already started to made clean by the words of Christ Jesus as opposed to false teachers who were not made

clean and therefore had a false message which produced bad fruit with the same false message.

 

[Delvianna]

The bad fruit is not about lifestyle, that is just your modern day interpretation, it is about false teachers and the their false doctrine and the more false teachers they produce... meaning those who follow them around and also have the same false doctrine.

We can see this very clearly with Jesus' instructions to his disciples. John 15.

They are being sent out to bear much good fruit, >>> this is for certain speaking about more followers of

The Way,

why because they have already started to made clean by the words of Christ Jesus as opposed to false teachers who were not made

clean and therefore had a false message which produced bad fruit with the same false message.

You're making an exclusive definition that isn't entirely correct.

You claim that "fruit" in Matthew 7 refers only to false doctrine and the false teachers produced by false prophets. Where does Jesus say that?

Throughout Scripture, "fruit" is repeatedly used to describe a person's conduct, character, and deeds...not just the people they influence.

• Matthew 3:8 – "Bear fruit worthy of repentance." Repentance is demonstrated by a changed life.
• Luke 3:8-14 defines those fruits as generosity, honesty, justice, and contentment.
• Luke 6:43-45 (the parallel passage) immediately connects the tree and its fruit to what comes out of a person's own heart and mouth.
• Romans 6:21-22 speaks of the "fruit" of sinful living versus holiness.
• Galatians 5:19-23 contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit which both describe behavior and character.
• Ephesians 5:9 speaks of the fruit of goodness, righteousness, and truth.

So the biblical usage of "fruit" is much broader than the narrow definition you're giving to Matthew 7.

Yes, I agree false doctrine is part of a false prophet's fruit. But there's nothing in Matthew 7 that points to it being the the only fruit Jesus is talking about, specially when the parallel verses point to it being lifestyle.

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. - Luke 6:43-45

In fact, the context continues into Matthew 7:21-23, where Jesus condemns those who practice lawlessness. That fits the broader argument and my point that a tree is recognized by the fruit of its life, not just by the doctrines someone teaches. Specially look at the surrounding teachings too. It's ALL about conduct.

 

[HeIsHere]

You're making an exclusive definition that isn't entirely correct.

You claim that "fruit" in Matthew 7 refers only to false doctrine and the false teachers produced by false prophets. Where does Jesus say that?

Throughout Scripture, "fruit" is repeatedly used to describe a person's conduct, character, and deeds...not just the people they influence.

• Matthew 3:8 – "Bear fruit worthy of repentance." Repentance is demonstrated by a changed life.
• Luke 3:8-14 defines those fruits as generosity, honesty, justice, and contentment.
• Luke 6:43-45 (the parallel passage) immediately connects the tree and its fruit to what comes out of a person's own heart and mouth.
• Romans 6:21-22 speaks of the "fruit" of sinful living versus holiness.
• Galatians 5:19-23 contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit which both describe behavior and character.
• Ephesians 5:9 speaks of the fruit of goodness, righteousness, and truth.

So the biblical usage of "fruit" is much broader than the narrow definition you're giving to Matthew 7.

Yes, I agree false doctrine is part of a false prophet's fruit. But there's nothing in Matthew 7 that points to it being the the only fruit Jesus is talking about, specially when the parallel verses point to it being lifestyle.



In fact, the context continues into Matthew 7:21-23, where Jesus condemns those who practice lawlessness. That fits the broader argument and my point that a tree is recognized by the fruit of its life, not just by the doctrines someone teaches. Specially look at the surrounding teachings too. It's ALL about conduct.

Well then, all the best with your ongoing effort at self saving/ keep yourself saved through your conduct.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I did not say grace is a license to sin.

Others have and that's to whom my comment was directed with sarcasm.
Then you made your point that I was making light of sin and my Savior. No, I make light of terms like "greasy grace, grace is a licence to sin," and other heresies such as "easy believism."

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Amen!!

Paul had very strong words for those who turn around who used perverted logic and preached grace was a license to sin.

He clearly states anyone who makes that accusation about the Gospel being a license to sin ... "their condemnation is just!!"
Romans 3:8.

The Jews whom Paul was trying to teach were making the exact same arguments as on this thread.
You slander grace and you make your self effort the winner.

Blaming the grace of God for sin is perverted logic here.

Paul was not impressed and had some stern words of warning for them, dig deep into Romans, slander against grace is in fact the antithesis of the Gospel and why Paul made the statement below.

King James Bible
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

New Living Translation
And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
Romans 3:8

They don’t realize that God loved them while they were still sinners and so their performance doesn’t change God’s love for them.

Thank you @HealthAndHappiness, you and @wattie are the one of the few left here that get it!

Yes, God is very angry with them.
Their "solution for sin" is the power of their flesh in place of the Son of God. This was the same message as the Pharisees who God rebuked harder than any harlots or crooked tax collectors.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:6,8,9

 

[Delvianna]

Well then, all the best with your ongoing effort at self saving/ keep yourself saved through your conduct.

Thanks, God's guidance is where my faith is. That's the whole point of the Holy Spirit. To guide, direct, correct. I hope one day you realize following God's law is paramount to salvation and it's by God's power that obedience is achieved. But like any covenant, it takes two.

 

[Soyeong]

You slander grace and you make your self effort the winner.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, ad he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to rely on ourselves by obediently relying on God's instructions.

In context the fruit in Matthew 7:18 is not the fruits of the Holy Spirit so you are making a faulty assumption and therefore your conclusion is incorrect.

God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the goal of the Law of God is to teach us how to embody God's character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so that does refer to the fruits of the Spirit.

Well actually, being above reproach does nothing to offset a doctrine which denounces the efficacy of the work of Christ Jesus on the cross. imo.

This doctrine you affirm is the one that states "the cross was necessary but not sufficient."

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to be good enough to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20), which has nothing to do with saying that the cross was not sufficient.

 

[Soyeong]

Following the law of Moses does not embody God's character traits. This is accomplished by the indwelling Spirit. That's why it is called the fruit of the Spirit.

God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, which is why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-7).

The Bible frequently uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of the Law of Moses, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Law of Moses (Matthew 23:23), and it could not be accurately described as such if it were not instructions for how to embody those traits.

God's way is the way to know Him and Jesus through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Law of Moses, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by through embodying His character traits, which is His gift of eternal life.

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses.

Keeping commandments apart from the power of Christ is relying on our own strength. One can follow the law outwardly. Following God's instructions outwardly void the internal reality is not really keeping the law. It's a form of godliness that denies the power thereof.

God's Word was never given as something to be embodied apart from the power of God's Word made flesh.

 

[Cameron143]

God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, which is why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-7).

The Bible frequently uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of the Law of Moses, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Law of Moses (Matthew 23:23), and it could not be accurately described as such if it were not instructions for how to embody those traits.

God's way is the way to know Him and Jesus through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Law of Moses, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by through embodying His character traits, which is His gift of eternal life.

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses.


God's Word was never given as something to be embodied apart from the power of God's Word made flesh.

Smh.

 

[HeIsHere]

Thanks, God's guidance is where my faith is. That's the whole point of the Holy Spirit. To guide, direct, correct. I hope one day you realize following God's law is paramount to salvation and it's by God's power that obedience is achieved. But like any covenant, it takes two.

Following God's law was for not-regenerated people for those who were dead spiritually.

As Christians were not supposed to be unregenerate and dead spiritually.

The law was for people who did not have the life of God inside of them, motivating them towards holiness.
As Christians we have a new covenant, it is because we are a completely different type of creation.

 

[Delvianna]

Following God's law was for not-regenerated people for those who were dead spiritually.

As Christians were not supposed to be unregenerate and dead spiritually.

The law was for people who did not have the life of God inside of them, motivating them towards holiness.
As Christians we have a new covenant, it is because we are a completely different type of creation.

The law is to show us what is righteous. The law is to show us what is good according to God. It's by the means in which we live. Just like any law of the land of the country you live in. You live by the law, which is supposed to teach you right from wrong. Chucking that out and saying it doesn't matter, is literally disregarding the Fathers own words. The meaning of "Christian" is "Christ follower". How are you "following Christ" when He himself tells you to be holy as He is? Which is literally following the law. What is the "new creation"? It's a person who is holy (law follower because you aren't the same person when you were living in sin). It's not some 3rd category that scripture doesn't even address or has never talked about before.

 

[HeIsHere]

The law is to show us what is righteous. The law is to show us what is good according to God. It's by the means in which we live. Just like any law of the land of the country you live in. You live by the law, which is supposed to teach you right from wrong. Chucking that out and saying it doesn't matter, is literally disregarding the Fathers own words. The meaning of "Christian" is "Christ follower". How are you "following Christ" when He himself tells you to be holy as He is? Which is literally following the law. What is the "new creation"? It's a person who is holy (law follower because you aren't the same person when you were living in sin). It's not some 3rd category that scripture doesn't even address or has never talked about before.

Galatians 3:25 KJV

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[Delvianna]

Galatians 3:25 KJV

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You're quoting Galatians 3:25 without its argument.

Paul doesn't say the Law no longer defines righteousness. He says we're no longer under the Law as a schoolmaster. Those are not the same thing.

A schoolmaster (paidagōgos) was a guardian who supervised a child until maturity. Paul's point is about our relationship to the Law under the New Covenant, not that God's standard of righteousness has changed.

If Galatians 3:25 means the Law no longer teaches right from wrong, then by what objective standard do you define sin? Scripture says, "sin is lawlessness" (1 John 3:4), and "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). Paul even says, "I would not have known coveting except through the Law" (Romans 7:7).

So where does Paul ever say God's definition of righteousness changed? He doesn't.

Being "not under the schoolmaster" does not mean God's moral standard disappeared. It means believers are no longer under the Law in its role as a guardian leading us to Christ. The standard of holiness that the Law reveals remains the standard God calls His people to live by.