Saved by faith alone?

[TrustandObey]

Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is NOT John's baptism. It is a NT command that is still in effect and will continue to be so until Jesus returns. See Luke 24:47.

I would add that Peter stated in Acts 2:39 that water baptism was to be for multiple generations.

 

[Wansvic]

I do not use the so called "gospels" to construct doctrine.

The N.T is far from perfect.

If you believe that every word in the gospels are written by God, that is, four perfect accounts.

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

That will be your claim that the N.T is perfect and that claim dominates traditional Christianity.

Now you need to support your claim that the gospels are perfect.

Then please explain why the gospels offer contradictory resurrection accounts.

Here is your chance to defend your claim!

The book of Acts reveals that John's baptism of repentance was no longer sufficient after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. John's baptism prepared people to believe on the One who was to come, but it did not identify believers with Christ's completed redemptive work.

Following Jesus' sacrifice, the New Testament presents the command to water baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Through this baptism, believers are identified with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. As Paul explains, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?... Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:12).

This transition is clearly demonstrated in Acts 19:1–5. When Paul learned that certain disciples had received only John's baptism, he explained that John baptized with the baptism of repentance, directing people to believe on Jesus. Upon hearing this, they were baptized again—this time "in the name of the Lord Jesus." Their rebaptism was necessary because the meaning and purpose of baptism had changed in light of Christ's completed sacrifice.

Thus, the distinction is significant: John's water baptism looked forward to the coming Messiah, while New Testament water baptism in the name of Jesus looks back to His finished work on the cross. Those who obey water baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins do so in order to be united with Christ, buried with Him into His death, and raised to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4).

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[Wansvic]

I would add that Peter stated in Acts 2:39 that water baptism was to be for multiple generations.

Yes. Thanks for pointing that out. So many overlook it.

 

[DavidLamb]

I would add that Peter stated in Acts 2:39 that water baptism was to be for multiple generations.

That verse says:

(Act 2:39 NKJV) For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

So it is "the promise" that is to them, their children, and as many others as God will call. How can the verse mean: "For baptism is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."?

 

[Wansvic]

Is that water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Or is that the baptism in the name of Jesus?

If you had a choice:

1) water baptism

2) baptism in the Holy Spirit

Which would you choose?

It is not a matter of choosing.

Scripture reveals Jesus' disciples obeyed Jesus command and water baptized everyone in Jesus' name. Why? Because as scripture states in Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead (Col 2:9). Paul's comment in 1 Corinthians confirms this as well, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

As the following accounts reveal everyone received the Holy Ghost and were water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Peter's words recorded in Acts 10:47-48 confirm baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."

The same is revealed by Paul in Acts 19:1-7:
"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."


The same is also revealed by Philip in Acts 8:12-18:
"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

 

[mailmandan]

It is not a matter of choosing.

Scripture reveals Jesus' disciples obeyed Jesus command and water baptized everyone in Jesus' name. Why? Because as scripture states in Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead (Col 2:9). Paul's comment in 1 Corinthians confirms this as well, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

As the following accounts reveal everyone received the Holy Ghost and were water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Peter's words recorded in Acts 10:47-48 confirm baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."

The same is revealed by Paul in Acts 19:1-7:
"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

The same is also revealed by Philip in Acts 8:12-18:
"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Baptism in Jesus' name is not meant as a rigid, salvational baptism formula, but a reference to authority. To baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, is to baptize in the name of Jesus/by His authority. (Matthew 28:18-19)

Must baptism be “in Jesus’ name”? - CARM

The proper way to baptize in Jesus' name is to say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

carm.org

 

[amazingrace]

I don't ignore baptism. I simply put water baptism in its proper place. Subsequent to salvation as all works must be. (Acts 10:43-48; Ephesians 2:8,9) I have been water baptized and have not not ignored Christ or His teaching authority in His Church, which is the body of Christ. (Colossians 1:18, 24)

for what purpose?

baptism or works after salvation are meaningless

thks

 

[amazingrace]

It says we are saved by Grace - Through faith.

​

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, ​

it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.​

​

Ephesians 2:8-9​

Grace made us to stand up and walk, and then God hands us a sword (faith).

this verse does not refer to personal salvation but to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us as it says in verse one He quickend us or brought us to life in grace!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

What the Holy Spirit performs on us during our Christian life a process of pruning, refining, purification.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested.

the fire is the love of God

thats why in baptism we receive a new heart!

ez 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 ;A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Does the church have authority over unbelievers?

Does the church love it's enemies?

Is the church as gentle as a dove?

Is the church managed by the Holy Spirit or the clergy?

the church is a kingdom which must exercise authority and rule!

you cannot accept the king while rejecting His kingdom, or His revelation or His ministers

thks

 

[mailmandan]

for what purpose?

baptism or works after salvation are meaningless

thks

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

So, according to your logic, anything that Christians accomplish which is not a prerequisite for salvation, is simply meaningless? So, your only motivation to do works is to save yourself? What about glorifying God? (Matthew 5:16) What about good works being excellent and profitable for everyone? (Titus 3:8)

News flash: We are NOT saved by works but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[Wansvic]

Is the book of Acts the source of doctrine?

Is Luke a chosen apostle?

Is Luke's account of the early church an accurate account?

If you are a Gentile then the only source for primary doctrine will be the apostle to the Gentiles.

Not Luke, Matthew, or Mark.

In answer to your questions:

Is the book of Acts the source of doctrine?
Acts is the inspired historical record of how the apostles preached, what people were commanded to do, and how they responded to the gospel. Doctrine is not derived from isolated statements but from the whole of God's inspired revelation.
Acts shows doctrine being preached and obeyed in real life.

Is Luke a chosen apostle?
No. Luke was not one of the Twelve. But neither was Mark, Jude, or the writer of Hebrews (if one believes Paul did not write it). The authority of a biblical book rests on the Holy Spirit's inspiration, not on whether the human author was one of the Twelve.

Is Luke's account of the early church an accurate account?
Absolutely. If Luke's record is not completely accurate, then neither can we trust his Gospel or any historical event he recorded. The same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul also inspired Luke.

If you are a Gentile then the only source for primary doctrine will be the apostle to the Gentiles.
Paul himself never taught that believers should ignore the teaching or historical record of the other apostles. In fact, Paul repeatedly affirmed that he preached the same gospel as they did (1 Cor. 15:11), submitted his gospel before the apostles to demonstrate unity (Gal. 2:1–9), and declared that the church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:14-20)—not upon one apostle alone.

Acts is especially significant because it records the actual implementation of Christ's commands. Jesus commanded repentance, baptism, and the preaching of the gospel to all nations. Acts records the apostles carrying out those commands under the direction of the Holy Spirit. If we want to know how Jesus' commands were understood and obeyed, Acts is the inspired record that shows us.

Paul's epistles were written to churches that had already been converted according to the pattern recorded in Acts. His letters explain, correct, and deepen the doctrine those believers had already received—they do not replace or contradict the historical record of their conversion.

As for faith, Scripture says:

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:17)

And Paul also wrote:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim. 3:16–17)

If all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, then Luke's inspired record in Acts cannot be dismissed as doctrinally secondary. To suggest that one inspired book is not authoritative for doctrine is to create a distinction that Scripture itself never makes. God has given His people a complete and trustworthy revelation, and all of it is profitable for doctrine.

Lastly, scripture also teaches that all people will ultimately be judged by the Word of God (John 12:48). That makes perfect sense only if God has given us a trustworthy and sufficient revelation. It would be inconsistent with God's justice to judge mankind by a standard that is unreliable, incomplete, or unavailable. If the inspired record in Acts is somehow doctrinally deficient or inaccurate, then how could God justly hold people accountable to His revealed will? The very fact that God will judge the world by His Word demonstrates that He has faithfully preserved in Scripture everything necessary for us to know and obey.

 

[amazingrace]

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, ​

which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Ephesians 2:10

"works are forbidden"

verses

"works are required"


((works are forbidden))

eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

((works are required))

eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


how do you solve this apparent contradiction in scripture?

thks

 

[Wansvic]

Water baptism and repentance of sin was precisely what John the Baptist taught.

Jesus taught that baptism was with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus constantly spoke of that inner regeneration.

Please don't tell me that a sprinkle of water on your head is critical for salvation.

Sprinkling on the head is not sufficient. However, after believing in Jesus and His sacrifice, obedience to the command of total immersion in water in the name of Jesus remits one's sin as the command reveals. That's not an opinion. It is a biblical fact. Scripture reveals everyone, regardless of nationality, had to believe and obey the command. (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48)

Another interesting fact is why the Samaritans were given the opportunity to hear, believe and obey the gospel before the Gentiles (Acts 8:12-18, 10:43-48). As Paul said the gospel had to be preached to the Jew first and then afterward to the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). The Samaritans were half-Jew and half-Gentile. As such, they had to hear the gospel before the full-fledged Gentiles. See, yet another proof that the same gospel had to be obeyed by both Jew and Gentile.

Consider as well, that a person obeys God's command, but it is God that brings about what He promised. This is seen in OT foreshadows, such as Naaman. Did Naaman wash away his own sins by dipping in the Jordan? No. Naaman believed and obeyed the command given by the man of God. And God miraculously cleansed him because he obeyed.

 

[Wansvic]

That verse says:

(Act 2:39 NKJV) For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

So it is "the promise" that is to them, their children, and as many others as God will call. How can the verse mean: "For baptism is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."?

"Even as many as the Lord our God shall call." ...

After Pentecost, God called Samaritans who were half-Jew and half-Gentile (Acts 8:12-18). Afterward, He called Gentiles (Acts 10:43-48). And finally the account in Acts 19:1-7 reveals the same message presented to the Jews at Pentecost was still in effect over 20 years later.

All those who believe in Jesus are required to repent, be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost as well.

 

[Wansvic]

for what purpose?

baptism or works after salvation are meaningless

thks

Scripture reveals water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. As well as receiving the Holy Ghost are essential elements of the NT rebirth (Acts 2:4-42, 22:16).

 

[amazingrace]

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

So, according to your logic, anything that Christians accomplish which is not a prerequisite for salvation, is simply meaningless? So, your only motivation to do works is to save yourself? What about glorifying God? (Matthew 5:16) What about good works being excellent and profitable for everyone? (Titus 3:8)

News flash: We are NOT saved by works but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

eph 2:8 does not refer to personal salvation

eph 2:10 does not say "saved for works"!

it says "created for works"!

the purpose of our creation is to know love and serve God!

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

 

[mailmandan]

eph 2:8 does not refer to personal salvation

eph 2:10 does not say "saved for works"!

it says "created for works"!

the purpose of our creation is to know love and serve God!

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Being created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10) "follows" having been saved by grace through through fauth, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Do, to know, love and serve God in holiness and righteousness involves good works which is what we are saved FOR.

 

[amazingrace]

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

So, according to your logic, anything that Christians accomplish which is not a prerequisite for salvation, is simply meaningless? So, your only motivation to do works is to save yourself? What about glorifying God? (Matthew 5:16) What about good works being excellent and profitable for everyone? (Titus 3:8)

News flash: We are NOT saved by works but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

yes works!

heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"diligence" thats works
"seeking" thats works

thks

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

 

[amazingrace]

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

So, according to your logic, anything that Christians accomplish which is not a prerequisite for salvation, is simply meaningless? So, your only motivation to do works is to save yourself? What about glorifying God? (Matthew 5:16) What about good works being excellent and profitable for everyone? (Titus 3:8)

News flash: We are NOT saved by works but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

many kinds of works

((unfruitful works))

(works of the law)

Refer to the works of the mosaic covenant

(works of the flesh)

Listed in Gal 5:19-21 & Eph 5:3-5
these cause the loss of grace and the bar us from salvation in the kingdom of God. the unfruitful works of darkness

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. eph 5:6

(dead works) or (works alone) or (natural works)

Works that are good in and of themselves but are not in union with Christ and grace and have power to accomplish perseverance unto eternal salvation! unfruitful works

Apart from Christ: NOTHING! Jn 15:5

((fruitful works))

Living works or deeds of rightousness!

(living works) (faith & works)

Supernatural good works (gifts of God) accomplished in union with Christ and empowered by His grace with perseverance to the end of our life unto eternal salvation!

fruitful works! Lk 3:9 Jn 15:5 bear fruit

2 cor 9: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

With Christ & empowered by grace:
I CAN DO ALL THINGS! Phil 4:13

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Living works:
1 pet 2:15-16 good works
1 pet 2:20 acceptable to God
1 pet 2:21-22 suffer as Christ suffered

righteousness implies & requires acts (volition) of righteousness
just deeds unto faithfulness in the new covenant!
mt 3:15
mt 10:22
mt 25
mt 6:33
mt 7:7
mt 26:41
mt 7:14
Lk 1:75
acts 10:35
rom 3:21
rom 5:21
rom 6:18
1 tim 6:11
1 tim 2:22
2 tim 3:16
heb 11:33
2 pet 2:21
1 Jn 2:29
1 Jn 3:7
1 pet 2:24



mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Practices)

Luke 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
(acts / deeds)

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: (works of the flesh) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (living works of righteousness)

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, (works of the flesh) or of obedience unto righteousness? (living works of righteousness)

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; (works of the flesh) even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (living works of righteousness)

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (living works of righteousness)

1 tim 6: 11-14

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Living works of righteousness)

deeds rewarded with eternal salvation! Heb 11:6 God is a rewarder of those who seek Him!

mt 5:7 blessed are the merciful they shall receive mercy

mt 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

mt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

(see God =eternal salvation)

mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life...

(life = eternal salvation)

mt 11:28-29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

(rest for our souls = eternal salvation)

Amen?