Calvinism is Gospel !

[HeIsHere]

We won't

You believe that the Bible teaches calvinism, WE DONT. We dont believe Paul or Isaiah taught it.

Lets open up Isaiah:

"Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Now put the TULIP calvinist grid on that and these verses have no meaning whatsoever. Cant learn to do well if they are unregenerated, can't seek judgment unless God regenerates, and on and on. Cannot reason together unless God opens the mind. Cannot be willing and obedient unless God causes it. Can rebel though, that part fits the T in tulip but even that doesnt make a lick of sense since they CANNOT do otherwise

Oh well, Calvinism is a system built on denying what is self - evident .... achieved by constantly moving the goal post.

 

[HeIsHere]

If unsaved men can do all these good works, they cannot be “totally depraved”. They must be only partially depraved.

Seems to me that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil... not just Evil.

The whole system is an epic fail.

It is not taught by Paul another ridiculous claim, formulated by one man and then another, both of had their fair share of psychological/emotional problems.

 

[brightfame52]

If unsaved men can do all these good works, they cannot be “totally depraved”. They must be only partially depraved.

You are confusing Total Depravity with Utter Depravity (or absolute depravity).

In Reformed theology, "Total Depravity" does not mean a person is as evil as they could possibly be, nor does it mean they lack the natural ability to perform outward, civil good.

Here is the proper definition:

1. Total in Scope, Not Degree: The word "Total" means that sin has corrupted every part of human nature—the mind, the will, the emotions, and the body. There is no part of man left untouched by the fall.
2. Spiritual Inability vs. Civil Ability: Total Depravity means man is completely unable to perform any spiritual good that pleases God for salvation, because his motive is corrupt. An unsaved man can physically feed a widow or choose not to steal (civil good/civic righteousness). However, because he does not do it out of love for God, for God's glory, or by faith, it is spiritually dead. As Romans 14:23 says, "whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
3. The Westminster Confession: The Reformed standards explain this perfectly. Chapter 16, Paragraph 7 states that works done by unregenerate men may be things which God commands and of use to others, but because they do not proceed from a purified heart or done in a right manner, "they are therefore sinful and cannot please God."

To use a simple analogy: A dead battery in a car is totally dead. It cannot start the engine or do what it was created to do. However, the car’s radio might still click, and the headlights might still flicker faintly. The flickering lights don't mean the battery is "partially alive"—the battery is completely dead, but it can still perform minor, residual actions.

When Isaiah 1 tells Israel to perform outward, civic reforms, God is addressing their civil duty under a national covenant. It does not mean they have a spiritually alive heart. They are still totally depraved toward God, even while performing civic duties toward men.

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[awelight]

Your claim that the Bible does not distinguish between a general call and an effectual call completely ignores the explicit vocabulary of the New Testament. No one disputes that the outward preaching of the gospel goes out generally to everyone who hears it. But the Apostle Paul explicitly outlines a specific, sovereign call that is distinct from the mere sound of a preacher's voice.

In Romans 8:30, Paul outlines the unbreakable golden chain of salvation writing that whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Look at the absolute mathematical certainty of the text. 100 percent of the people who receive this specific call end up justified and glorified. If this call simply meant the outward preaching of the gospel, then everyone who has ever heard a sermon would be justified and go to heaven. Since we know that is not true, the Bible explicitly teaches an internal, effectual call of the Holy Spirit that successfully secures the salvation of the elect.

Furthermore, your idea that Adam's spirit died but his soul remained untouched and fully functional is a completely fabricated invention. The Bible never teaches that human beings are divided into separate compartments where the spirit can be dead while the soul remains morally pure and spiritually healthy.

In Romans 3:10-11, Paul quotes the Old Testament to define the total, absolute corruption of the entire unregenerate human being stating that there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

If the human soul was still spiritually alive, alert, and healthy enough to seek after God on its own, Paul would be wrong. But the text says there is none that understandeth and none that seeketh. The corruption of the fall affected the entire man—his mind is darkened as per Ephesians 4:18, his heart is deceitful and desperately wicked as per Jeremiah 17:9, and his will is in absolute bondage to sin as per John 8:34.

When you hear a sermon, your physical ears can process the sound and your natural mind can understand the words. But a dead, unregenerate heart is fundamentally incapable of loving the truth or submitting to it. As Romans 8:7 explicitly states, the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

An enemy with a hostile carnal mind cannot choose to obey the gospel until God performs the exact heart surgery promised in Ezekiel 36:26, removing the stony heart and giving a heart of flesh. You do not respond to the call to get made alive; the sovereign voice of Christ effectively makes you alive through the new birth, causing you to willingly, joyfully respond. The text has spoken, and salvation belongs entirely to the Lord from start to finish.

Very good defense sir. You saved me some typing. All I can say to the above post by you is: Amen.

 

[awelight]

The Bible does not differentiate between an effectual call and a general call. There is only one call, and that is through the preaching of the gospel. You said, "only the person who has been made alive by the Spirit is able to choose Christ". Your "Ordo Salutis" is wrong. No one is made alive until they first hear the gospel and respond to that call. Your statement comes from the false premise of "total depravity". Bible does not teach "total depravity". When Adam fell into sin, only his spirit died, but his soul was very much alive. Through his soul, he was able to think, feel, and make decisions. So, when people hear the gospel, they are able to hear, think, and make decisions.

My desire for you, is that the Lord will one day reveal to you the correct understanding of the "fall". To deny depravity in fallen mankind, is to deny the entire plan of God the Father from all eternity. To not fully understand our fallenness is to not understand the true nature of sin against a Holy God. To not understand our corrupted nature is to miss the importance of the sacrificial Lamb.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understands. There is none that are seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that does good, no, not so much as one:

I am reminded of the following quote and question:

"The religious world is staggering under the influence of a depraved intellectualism which denies God the right to operate among people of the world as He pleases. No one can believe in free will and free grace at the same time. These subjects are as diametrically opposed as light and darkness, heaven and hell, or a holy God and an unholy man. To believe in free will dethrones the sovereign God; to believe in free grace dethrones man. Who is on the throne in your concept of salvation?" -- W.E. Best

 

[awelight]

Yes all born in sin. Ive never seen any scripture that tells me, or alludes to, that free will died as well.

The concept of "free will" died on the birthing table. A stillborn philosophy.

Man has a "will" but it is certainly not "free". The only free agent, in this known universe, is God.
Mans will is enslaved to his nature and the fear of death. Man never wills/chooses something against his nature. Therefore, in our natural state, we are likened to these:

Mat. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you did not desire it!

 

[maximc]

My desire for you, is that the Lord will one day reveal to you the correct understanding of the "fall". To deny depravity in fallen mankind, is to deny the entire plan of God the Father from all eternity. To not fully understand our fallenness is to not understand the true nature of sin against a Holy God. To not understand our corrupted nature is to miss the importance of the sacrificial Lamb.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understands. There is none that are seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that does good, no, not so much as one:

I am reminded of the following quote and question:

"The religious world is staggering under the influence of a depraved intellectualism which denies God the right to operate among people of the world as He pleases. No one can believe in free will and free grace at the same time. These subjects are as diametrically opposed as light and darkness, heaven and hell, or a holy God and an unholy man. To believe in free will dethrones the sovereign God; to believe in free grace dethrones man. Who is on the throne in your concept of salvation?" -- W.E. Best

Pro. 14:12 says that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. It is better to introspect and check who is on the right side and who could be wrong. Never come to conclusion based on your beliefs. We need to know the Truth. Beliefs can send us to hell, but only the Truth will set us free.

"Total Depravity" is a heretical concept. If man was totally depraved, he would been a zombie, but no. Jesus still came into this world and spoke to the people of Israel and made them understand God because Jesus considered them not depraved. Whoever rejected him such as the religious sect, Jesus held them accountable. If they were depraved, why should Jesus hold them accountable?

Rom 3:11 There is none that understands. There is none that are seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that does good, no, not so much as one:

No one was able to understand, and no one sought after God is because 2 Cor. 4:4 says that Satan has blinded the minds of those who do not believe.

No one can believe in free will and free grace at the same time.

The above statement is utterly wrong. You do not know how grace operates. Grace is the favor of God who guides us as to which road we should take. Based on that guidance, I need to act. That is called free will.

To believe in free will dethrones the sovereign God

This statement is again wrong. If you are working in a company, consider your manager as sovereign over you. You are doing whatever is instructed to you. How do you do that if you do not have a free will? So, when you exercise your free will to carry out his instructions, are you dethroning your manager? You also have a free will not to carry out his instructions. In such a case, you would receive a warning letter. Do you consider him still to be sovereign over you?

to believe in free grace dethrones man.

Yes, it is the will of God that we should be dethroned, otherwise grace cannot operate in us. Jam. 4:6 says that God gives grace to the humble. Now, that does not mean we do not have a free will. We can still violate the grace of God, but we dare not do it.

 

[Journey_man]

I would say there is no verse in the scripture is self explanatory, not even close.

And no that is not the meaning of that verse, Paul is obviously putting explaining something more involved to the people in Corinth and developing his argument.

But this type of cherry picking works well for when scripture verses are required to prop up an already devised system.

Scripture no where affirms this false tenet that God created mankind's fallen nature after the fall such that mankind could not respond positively to the HIS Good News .. in this way He would pick and choose only some for His Kingdom.

Jesus Himself affirms over and over again that people have retained the moral ability to respond to Him and His work either positively or negatively.

I would say there is no verse in the scripture, that can be understood by the unregenerate/unconverted.

Before an individual can properly discern spiritual matters, their mind must be renewed by the Holy Spirit. This supernatural illumination is a grace reserved solely for the elect.

Unbelievers can grasp the literal, historical, or academic meaning of doctrines, but they cannot spiritually discern or savingly believe them. This spiritual blindness is rooted in the doctrine of Total Depravity and humanity's inherited bondage to sin.


1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You claim the above verse is not saying, that the natural man can not know the things of the Spirit of God". I don't know how much more plain it can be, and I don't know what this "something more involved" thing is that Paul is supposedly trying to develop.

I hold to "systematic theology", as the alternative is "inconsistent, incoherent, fragmented, contradictory theology".

Our generation is blessed to have 2000 years of Church history behind us, we stand on the shoulders of our forefathers and enjoy a view that no previous generation ever had. So we are without excuse, if we hold to false doctrines.

 

[Journey_man]

Why are you looking at the issue as pass or fail? Did God fail in created all things good in the beginning? And yet, God repented that he had made man on the earth. Did God fail?

Everything God created was good, to begin with. But then sin entered the world and corrupted everything.

God does not literally change His mind or experience human regret, which implies a lack of foreknowledge. Instead, Genesis 6:6 uses an anthropomorphism—a literary device where God accommodates His infinite, unchanging nature to our finite human capacity to emphasize the gravity and pain of human sin.

So God did not fail in any way, He knew Adam would sin, that's why He prepared His Son as a sacrifice to redeem His elect, before He created the world. Nothing takes God by surprise, because He preordained everything.

The original Hebrew word used is nacham, which means "to be sorry" or "to be moved to grief," rather than to admit to a mistake.
God's "regret" illustrates His intense, righteous displeasure with humanity's relentless corruption, as described in verse 5. It conveys a vivid picture of a holy Creator deeply grieved by how His creation had defaced His image, foreshadowing the impending judgment of the global flood.

 

[Journey_man]

Only those indoctrinated with Reformed/TULIP believe this...... if one goes back 75 years one would find that most Baptists were NOT Calvinists, but rather followed the Standard Confession of 1660.
neither did they adhere to Arminianism.


IV. That God is not willing that any should Perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Pet.
3. 9. and the knowledge of the truth, that they might be saved, 1 Tim. 2. 4. For which end Christ
hath commanded, that the Gospel (to wit, the glad tydings of remission of sins) should be
preached to every creature, Mark 16. 15. So that no man shall eternally suffer in Hell (that is, the
second death) for want of a Christ that dyed for them, but as the Scripture saith, for denying the
Lord that bought them, 2 Pet. 2. 1. or because they believe not in the name of the only begotten
Son of God, John 3. 18. Unbelief therefore being the cause why the just and righteous God, will
condemn the children of men; it follows against all contradiction, that all men at one time or
other, are put into such a capacity, as that (through the grace of God) they may be eternally
saved, John 1. 7. Acts 17. 30. Mark 6. 6. Heb. 3. 10, 18, 19. 1 John 5. 10. John 3. 17.

You keep mentioning "Calvinism, Reformed Theology, TULIP etc. but you have never once identified a single fault or anything unbiblical about them.

I'm not concerned about John Calvin or Jacob Arminius, I'm more interested in God and what He has to say. I have never mentioned those men or any denominational views, I simply quote Gods Word and you interpret that as "Calvinism" or Reformed Theology".

If Reformed Theology is supported by Gods Word, then so be it. I follow the Lord Jesus, not John Calvin or Jacob Arminius. You can put any label on me, as long as there are no biblical faults in my theology. You haven't been able to find a single biblical fault in my theology. I'm not really interested in your private opinions, I'm only interested in the truth.

If you find any errors or unbiblical doctrines in my theology, then please point them out and show me where the bible supports your view.

You plucked 2 Peter 3:9 way out of context, it was not referring to "every single person on the planet". I don't have time to give you a thorough exegesis on the passage now, but sufficed to say it was directed at the elect of God, meaning current believers, "those who are already saved" and those who are yet to be added to the Body of Christ.
In context, some were asking why the Lord doesn't just return and make all things right. The short answer is, the Lord is patient, "not willing that any of His elect should perish". So when the last one of His elect is added to the Church, then it will be time for judgement day and the end of the world.

 

[Journey_man]

Why do you think that way?
It is not what I think that you are attacking.

I don't know what you think, as you haven't revealed it. On the one hand you say God is trying to get unbelievers over the line, then you deny it.

 

[Journey_man]

Your attempt to condemn me is an affront to me. Seems to be a pattern with those in the cult of calvin.

I'm sorry to hear your Arminian views were exposed and your feelings were hurt

 

[GWH]

Some could have been saved later.

What did Jesus see the Father doing that made Him respond to some but not others?

Only the few God chose to love/elect could be saved at any time,
Which is why Jesus Jesus aped the hatred his Father had for those chosen for hell per tulip.

 

[brightfame52]

And where Christ and Election are preached reprobation must accompany it,

Reprobation is that eternal will, good pleasure, or purpose of God according to which He determined that some of His moral, rational creatures would be cast into hell forever on account of their sins; and that this fact would serve the cause of Christ and redound to God's glory alone​

https://www.prca.org/resources/pamphlets/sovereign-reprobation

 

[Komentaja]

If unsaved men can do all these good works, they cannot be “totally depraved”. They must be only partially depraved.

Gotta shift the goal posts. Whenever caught in an inconsistensy press the panic button and cry misrepresentation or that people "don't understand calvinism"

 

[Komentaja]

Oh well, Calvinism is a system built on denying what is self - evident .... achieved by constantly moving the goal post.

That is funny, I just wrote about shifting the goal posts as well hahaha. Didn't see this message until now, going in order.

In context, some were asking why the Lord doesn't just return and make all things right. The short answer is, the Lord is patient, "not willing that any of His elect should perish". So when the last one of His elect is added to the Church, then it will be time for judgement day and the end of the world.

Yup, heres a good example of it. God so loved the world of the elect, God is not willing any of His elect should perish, God wants every elect person to come into the knowledge of the truth.

Of course it has to mean that because you have to interpret the Bible thru the TULIP lens otherwise it all falls apart. If God wants every single person to be saved then we would have to conclude that the L in TULIP isnt true, nor is the I or U. Now we have to actually study the Bible for ourselves and harmonize God's desire for all to be saved and not all being saved. I know, could it be that some reject the free gift of salvation and resist the Holy Spirit?

 

[Roger316]

You are confusing Total Depravity with Utter Depravity (or absolute depravity).

In Reformed theology, "Total Depravity" does not mean a person is as evil as they could possibly be, nor does it mean they lack the natural ability to perform outward, civil good.

Here is the proper definition:

1. Total in Scope, Not Degree: The word "Total" means that sin has corrupted every part of human nature—the mind, the will, the emotions, and the body. There is no part of man left untouched by the fall.
2. Spiritual Inability vs. Civil Ability: Total Depravity means man is completely unable to perform any spiritual good that pleases God for salvation, because his motive is corrupt. An unsaved man can physically feed a widow or choose not to steal (civil good/civic righteousness). However, because he does not do it out of love for God, for God's glory, or by faith, it is spiritually dead. As Romans 14:23 says, "whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
3. The Westminster Confession: The Reformed standards explain this perfectly. Chapter 16, Paragraph 7 states that works done by unregenerate men may be things which God commands and of use to others, but because they do not proceed from a purified heart or done in a right manner, "they are therefore sinful and cannot please God."

To use a simple analogy: A dead battery in a car is totally dead. It cannot start the engine or do what it was created to do. However, the car’s radio might still click, and the headlights might still flicker faintly. The flickering lights don't mean the battery is "partially alive"—the battery is completely dead, but it can still perform minor, residual actions.

When Isaiah 1 tells Israel to perform outward, civic reforms, God is addressing their civil duty under a national covenant. It does not mean they have a spiritually alive heart. They are still totally depraved toward God, even while performing civic duties toward men.

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Dead is dead.

 

[DeanM]

I'm sorry to hear your Arminian views were exposed and your feelings were hurt

Fake apology, fake theology. See? I made a rhime.

 

[HeIsHere]

The concept of "free will" died on the birthing table. A stillborn philosophy.

Man has a "will" but it is certainly not "free". The only free agent, in this known universe, is God.
Mans will is enslaved to his nature and the fear of death. Man never wills/chooses something against his nature. Therefore, in our natural state, we are likened to these:

Mat. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you did not desire it!

Nowhere does scripture teach that God removed the ability of fallen man (from birth) to believe and respond positively to the Truth and Power of His Good News.

 

[HeIsHere]

You keep mentioning "Calvinism, Reformed Theology, TULIP etc. but you have never once identified a single fault or anything unbiblical about them.

I'm not concerned about John Calvin or Jacob Arminius, I'm more interested in God and what He has to say. I have never mentioned those men or any denominational views, I simply quote Gods Word and you interpret that as "Calvinism" or Reformed Theology".

If Reformed Theology is supported by Gods Word, then so be it. I follow the Lord Jesus, not John Calvin or Jacob Arminius. You can put any label on me, as long as there are no biblical faults in my theology. You haven't been able to find a single biblical fault in my theology. I'm not really interested in your private opinions, I'm only interested in the truth.

If you find any errors or unbiblical doctrines in my theology, then please point them out and show me where the bible supports your view.

You plucked 2 Peter 3:9 way out of context, it was not referring to "every single person on the planet". I don't have time to give you a thorough exegesis on the passage now, but sufficed to say it was directed at the elect of God, meaning current believers, "those who are already saved" and those who are yet to be added to the Body of Christ.
In context, some were asking why the Lord doesn't just return and make all things right. The short answer is, the Lord is patient, "not willing that any of His elect should perish". So when the last one of His elect is added to the Church, then it will be time for judgement day and the end of the world.

There is not one clear scripture when examined in context of the surrounding text, the original language and the full counsel of God which clearly states a person is regenerated or gifted initial faith prior to salvation.