Ordains and creates is pretty much the same. But the Lord's prayer is so that God's will MAY BE DONE ON EARTH as it is in heaven. So in heaven it is done, on earth not so much. Pick up a news paper
Calvinism is Gospel !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
Doesn't this verse kinda shake up the calvinist theology a bit? These vessels are prepared unto glory but it says these people were called to be such vessels? Seems to me its still up in the air on if these people end up those vessels unto glory
Nowhere in the Bible do we read that living a pious life will get anybody to heaven. It's believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you won't die only to find yourself in hell. Nowhere, either, does the Bible say that people are predestined for hell. Rather, we are all sinners in God's sight, and deserve only His punishment. It is only by His grace and mercy that anybody is saved and goes to heaven.
Same point. Some believers are doomed for hell is what calvinists preach. Sick and twisty.
Believers doomed to hell? Have you heard a Calvinist preach that? I have heard Calvinistic preaching for over 50 years, and I have never heard such a thing, nor have I read any Calvinistic authors write such a thing. I have heard many preachers say that unless you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell for eternity.
Well, this thread has over 4,000 posts on it. Perhaps you could help me by just indicating a few that claim that some believers are doomed to hell. I have looked at the last three pages of posts, and have not found one post where anybody claims that believers are doomed to hell.
Im not searching for you. If not stated outright its been alluded to all through this thread. Of course it will be denied.
It's not a case of searching for me. You made the accusation, so surely you have the evidence to back it up, not just a vague "allusion". You wrote: "Some believers are doomed for hell is what calvinists preach." Yet you have not given one single example of anybody stating that some believers are doomed to hell.
The Gospel of the Sovereign Grace of God
In Acts 20:24, the Apostle Paul declares the ultimate focus of his life and calling: “But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.”
To accurately testify to this Gospel, we must emphasize that salvation is completely, 100% the work of God's grace. True biblical grace is never a universal, passive offer; it is an active, sovereign power reserved strictly for an election of grace.
God laid down the absolute foundation of this truth when Moses asked to see His divine glory. God responded by tying His glory directly to His absolute freedom of choice: “...I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.” (Exodus 33:18-19). God's grace is sovereignly restricted according to His own good pleasure.
The Apostle Paul confirms that this discriminating grace is what separates the elect remnant from the reprobate mass:
“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” (Romans 11:5-7).
Paul sets up an unbreachable barrier: grace and human conditions are mutually exclusive. If salvation is by grace, it cannot be contingent upon human effort, human faith, or human choices. If a sinner must provide the "trigger" to activate salvation, it becomes a system of works, and grace is destroyed. The "election" effectively obtains salvation because God's grace ensures it, while the unregenerate are left in their natural, penal blindness.
This is why the publication of salvation is explicitly defined by the absolute sovereignty of Jehovah. As the prophet writes in Isaiah 52:7: “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!”
The Gospel of salvation does not announce that man's free will reigns. It publishes the glorious truth that God reigns in absolute sovereignty over the salvation of His people. He does not ask for permission, He does not wait for a dead sinner to move an inch, and He does not make passive offers. He sovereignly conquers the hearts of His elect remnant and saves them by His free grace alone. 50
In Acts 20:24, the Apostle Paul declares the ultimate focus of his life and calling: “But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.”
To accurately testify to this Gospel, we must emphasize that salvation is completely, 100% the work of God's grace. True biblical grace is never a universal, passive offer; it is an active, sovereign power reserved strictly for an election of grace.
God laid down the absolute foundation of this truth when Moses asked to see His divine glory. God responded by tying His glory directly to His absolute freedom of choice: “...I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.” (Exodus 33:18-19). God's grace is sovereignly restricted according to His own good pleasure.
The Apostle Paul confirms that this discriminating grace is what separates the elect remnant from the reprobate mass:
“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” (Romans 11:5-7).
Paul sets up an unbreachable barrier: grace and human conditions are mutually exclusive. If salvation is by grace, it cannot be contingent upon human effort, human faith, or human choices. If a sinner must provide the "trigger" to activate salvation, it becomes a system of works, and grace is destroyed. The "election" effectively obtains salvation because God's grace ensures it, while the unregenerate are left in their natural, penal blindness.
This is why the publication of salvation is explicitly defined by the absolute sovereignty of Jehovah. As the prophet writes in Isaiah 52:7: “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!”
The Gospel of salvation does not announce that man's free will reigns. It publishes the glorious truth that God reigns in absolute sovereignty over the salvation of His people. He does not ask for permission, He does not wait for a dead sinner to move an inch, and He does not make passive offers. He sovereignly conquers the hearts of His elect remnant and saves them by His free grace alone. 50
As I said earlier, you are stuck in the "spiritually dead sinner" mindset. As per your ordo salutis, you are not going beyond the point of a spiritually dead sinner. There are other stages in the ordo salutis viz., justification, sanctification, and glorification.
Your assertion is that a "spiritually dead sinner" is a corpse. That's your belief because you have been indoctrinated to believe in "Total Depravity". I don't believe that a "spiritually dead sinner" is a corpse because when God told Adam that if he ate the forbidden fruit, he would surely die, and when Adam did it that fruit, only his spirit died, not his soul. Adam continued to live in his soul for 930 years. Is this hard to understand? It implies then that Adam was not brain dead that he could not understand, or think, or decide on important matters. I totally agree that in that state, Adam cannot perceive God, nor does he have any inclination to know God. Fast forward to NT times where we are all born through Adamic lineage which means we are also in the same state of not being able to perceive God nor do we have any inclination to know God.
Stage 1: Calling and Justification
This is the reason why Jesus told his disciples to go around the world and preach his gospel so that when people hear the gospel, God would give them the gift of faith and so they would believe. This is clearly mentioned in Rom. 10:13-17. This is when a person is justified. From this point onwards, that person is no longer the "spiritually dead sinner" nor is he a "corpse". So, who did the calling and justification? God.
Stage 2: Sanctification
Having been justified, now the person needs to work towards sanctification. How does he do that? In John 15:1-2 Jesus says, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit:" In this verse, we are called to bear fruit. In other words, we need to develop the character of Christ in us. Jesus tells us how to bear fruit in verse 4 which says, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." So, our job is to abide in Christ. Now what does abiding in Christ mean? Jesus does not explain it.
So, Paul comes to our rescue and says in Rom. 8:1 by saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.". So, he is clearly telling us to walk in the spirit and not to walk in the flesh. So, how do we walk in the spirit? The answer is in Rom. 8:26 by reaching out to God. At this point, remember, the person is no longer a "spiritually dead sinner" nor a "corpse". Yet, he has limitations in prayer. That's why, the HS comes along and helps him pray. Since we know that the HS is God himself, connect this to your "golden chain of salvation" in Rom. 8:30. So, who is sanctifying the person? God.
Regeneration happens exactly at the same time as justification. When the person believes in Christ and confess Jesus as Lord, he is justified and regenerated. This is mentioned in 1 John 4:15. When the HS comes and resides in the person, that is regeneration.
In Rom. 8:26 we see that even though the initiative was taken by man, it is accomplished by the HS. That is the grace of God.
In Rom. 9, Paul is talking about the children of promise. Initially, the promise was given to Abraham to give the land of Canaan. This promise was then extended to Isaac disregarding Ishmael. Then it was extended to Jacob disregarding Esau. Then God raises up Pharaoh to accomplish his purpose of redeeming the Jews and taking them to the promised land. Finally, the promised Messiah comes on the scene. So, anyone born spiritually through Christ fits into this promised race or generation. So, anyone outside of Christ is the vessel of dishonor, and anyone who has received Christ is the vessel of honor.
I know. Cult of Calvin doesnt say that and Catholics dont pray to Mary. You people believe what you want.
And the Reformed are arrogant? Did you just call us spiritual retards for believing that God is sovereign over the salvation of man?Satan knows a way to try to wear out genuinely growing believers.
...."Send in the retards!"
You can only laugh when you see what is going on.
Spiritual retards are real and exist.
Just leave it be!
"Your response has driven you into an absolute corner. To preserve human free will, you have flatly contradicted the Greek grammar of the Apostle John, invented an unscriptural theory about Adam’s soul, and reduced the Holy Spirit to a passive observer waiting for commands from a fallen creature.
Let’s look at exactly where your arguments completely shatter against the text:
1. The Witness of 1 John Completely Destroys Your Timeline
You claim that regeneration happens at the exact same time a person chooses to believe, and you attempt to use 1 John to back it up. You have read the epistles of John completely backward. The Apostle John uses precise Greek grammar to prove that Regeneration must legally and logically precede faith.
Look at the explicit text of 1 John 5:1: “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...”
In the original Greek text, the word 'believeth' is a present-tense verb, but 'is born' (gegennētai) is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense denotes an action that was already completed in the past, with ongoing results in the present. Grammatically, John is saying:
'Whosoever is currently believing does so because they have already been sovereignly born of God.'
John repeats this exact same rule throughout his entire letter:
2. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Explodes Your 'Alive Soul' Theory
To escape the total inability of fallen man, you claim that Adam’s spirit died but his 'soul' remained alive, allowing him to think, reason, and decide to choose God. Scripture flatly denies that the natural human soul has any such ability.
The Apostle Paul uses the exact Greek word for 'soulish' or 'natural' (psychikos) to describe the unregenerate man, and look at his verdict in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
3. The Sovereign Reality of John 15
You bring up John 15 to claim that God 'won't move an inch' unless we take the initiative to abide and pray. You completely ignored how Jesus Himself summarizes the entire mechanics of the Vine and the Branches in John 15:16:
4. The Target of Romans 9
Finally, you claim Romans 9 is just about earthly land promises and national history, yet you admit that anyone outside of Christ is a vessel of dishonor and anyone in Christ is a vessel of honor. You have just conceded the entire argument.
Romans 9:23 states that the vessels of mercy are 'afore prepared unto glory.' Earthly real estate in Canaan is not eternal glory. Paul is explicitly talking about individual, eternal election to salvation.
By insisting that God is completely frozen and 'won't move an inch' until man initiates the process through prayer or faith, you have turned salvation into a conditional system of human works. You are fighting a losing battle against the absolute, unchangeable sovereignty of the Almighty."
Let’s look at exactly where your arguments completely shatter against the text:
1. The Witness of 1 John Completely Destroys Your Timeline
You claim that regeneration happens at the exact same time a person chooses to believe, and you attempt to use 1 John to back it up. You have read the epistles of John completely backward. The Apostle John uses precise Greek grammar to prove that Regeneration must legally and logically precede faith.
Look at the explicit text of 1 John 5:1: “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...”
In the original Greek text, the word 'believeth' is a present-tense verb, but 'is born' (gegennētai) is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense denotes an action that was already completed in the past, with ongoing results in the present. Grammatically, John is saying:
'Whosoever is currently believing does so because they have already been sovereignly born of God.'
John repeats this exact same rule throughout his entire letter:
- 'Everyone that doeth righteousness is born [has already been born - perfect tense] of him.' (1 John 2:29)
- 'Everyone that loveth is born [has already been born - perfect tense] of God.' (1 John 4:7)
2. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Explodes Your 'Alive Soul' Theory
To escape the total inability of fallen man, you claim that Adam’s spirit died but his 'soul' remained alive, allowing him to think, reason, and decide to choose God. Scripture flatly denies that the natural human soul has any such ability.
The Apostle Paul uses the exact Greek word for 'soulish' or 'natural' (psychikos) to describe the unregenerate man, and look at his verdict in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
Paul completely closes your loophole. The 'alive soul' of the natural man cannot receive the things of God, views the Gospel as total foolishness, and cannot know them. Your theory of an intellectually capable, unregenerate soul flatly contradicts the Holy Spirit.
3. The Sovereign Reality of John 15
You bring up John 15 to claim that God 'won't move an inch' unless we take the initiative to abide and pray. You completely ignored how Jesus Himself summarizes the entire mechanics of the Vine and the Branches in John 15:16:
The branch does not take the initiative to graft itself into the Vine to trigger the Husbandman. The Husbandman sovereignly chooses and grafts the branch into Christ. Any fruit-bearing, any abiding, and any praying is the direct result of Christ's life flowing into the branch, not a human work that triggers the flow.
4. The Target of Romans 9
Finally, you claim Romans 9 is just about earthly land promises and national history, yet you admit that anyone outside of Christ is a vessel of dishonor and anyone in Christ is a vessel of honor. You have just conceded the entire argument.
Romans 9:23 states that the vessels of mercy are 'afore prepared unto glory.' Earthly real estate in Canaan is not eternal glory. Paul is explicitly talking about individual, eternal election to salvation.
By insisting that God is completely frozen and 'won't move an inch' until man initiates the process through prayer or faith, you have turned salvation into a conditional system of human works. You are fighting a losing battle against the absolute, unchangeable sovereignty of the Almighty."
"Your appeal to Romans 10:13–17 as a proof-text for human initiative completely backfires when you look closely at the rigid, logical chain of cause-and-effect that the Apostle Paul actually lays down. You are trying to use this passage to argue that a spiritually dead sinner hears a sermon, chooses to exercise free will to believe, and then calls on God to trigger justification.
Let’s completely deconstruct your argument by looking at the exact text of Romans 10:13–15:
Notice the precise, unbreakable backward chain of necessity Paul establishes. He completely eliminates the possibility of human initiative by showing that each step is entirely dependent on the one before it:
- A person cannot Call unless they already Believe.
- A person cannot Believe unless they have Heard Christ.
- A person cannot Hear unless a Preacher is sent by God.
Paul explicitly states that believing must happen before the calling. Calling upon the name of the Lord is not a free-will work performed by a dead soul to get faith; calling is the vocal evidence and fruit of a heart that already possesses saving faith!
This leaves you with the ultimate question: how does a spiritually dead sinner get this faith? Paul answers in verse 17: 'So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.'
Under a High Calvinist framework, we do not deny the absolute necessity of preaching. The preaching of the Gospel is the external means ordained by God. But as you already admitted, the natural man's soul considers the Gospel to be complete foolishness and cannot know it (1 Cor 2:14). Therefore, the external preaching of the Word is utterly useless unless the Holy Spirit simultaneously executes the Internal and Effectual Call (Rom 8:30).
When the Gospel is preached to the elect, the Holy Spirit sovereignly moves upon the dead soul, opening their blind eyes, unstopping their deaf ears, and instantly regenerating them. This miracle of the New Birth produces the gift of saving faith, and that living faith instantly causes the newly quickened soul to cry out and willingly call upon the name of the Lord.
Man does not take the initiative to hear and believe to force God's hand. God takes the absolute initiative to send the preacher, internally quicken the soul, grant the faith, and draw the sinner out of darkness. The calling is the downstream result of the sovereign, internal work of the Spirit, leaving no room for man to boast in his own free-will initiative."
I found this.
Evanescent grace suggests there is a temporary grace that God gives, but it fades with time.
Another example of believers not really being saved according to the cult of calvin. As you can see from my posts earlier its denied by the cult members.
Gospel is not preached to the elect. Gospel is preached to the general public.
HS sovereignly moves upon the sinful soul (not the dead soul). What is dead is only the spirit, not the soul.
opening their blind eyes (not until faith is exercised)
unstopping their deaf ears (not until faith is exercised)
instantly regenerating them (only when faith is exercised)
This miracle of the new birth (no, not yet. Only after the person has exercised faith)
produces the gift of saving faith (what produces faith is not the new birth, but the preaching of the gospel)
living faith instantly causes the newly quickened soul to cry out (No. it is faith that causes a person to cry out thereby the spirit is quickened. )
Your last line really captures the problem.
They interpret several verses wrong and then they create an entire system of eisegesis to deal with all the problems the original error creates.
- Status