I mean Meido -Persia Empire replaced the Babylonian - then that got replaced by Grecian - then that in turn was replaced by the Roman.
And the censored word was gap - I was joking about how it cant be mentioned.
The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8
- Thread starter JustThinking
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And the censored word was gap - I was joking about how it cant be mentioned.
Okay, but, if you do not mind, can you offer your thoughts / agreements / disagreements, etc., with the comments made in post #49 before we might move on past 2:33? I would also like to hear the thoughts / opinions from everyone that has shown an interest in this so far - @Researcher , @HeIsHere, @TMS, @Delvianna, @tablet123, @Vucesa, @Adstar, @Omegatime, @2ndTimeIsTheCharm, @dkontner -----if still interested, thanks.Yes there are only 4 earthly metal beast Kingdoms but I see the Rock as representing Gods Kingdom that destroys and replaces them all
BTW I do not see this as a fight, nor want one
@JustThinking
Right, but what's interesting is what Jesus says that makes it appear as a duel prophecy.
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. - Matthew 24:20
Along with the end of Daniel which depicts a future that hasn't happened yet:
"There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then."
Sounds almost word for word. That's why I generally go over Daniel based on history and look towards the future to see how that could parallel
Right, but what's interesting is what Jesus says that makes it appear as a duel prophecy.
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. - Matthew 24:20
Along with the end of Daniel which depicts a future that hasn't happened yet:
"There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then."
Sounds almost word for word. That's why I generally go over Daniel based on history and look towards the future to see how that could parallel
yes - Babylon - Medo Persia - Greece - Rome
yes - and each metal is stronger but less valuable than the other.
Yes to the uniqueness and yes to the no room for another kingdom or king etc, but each successive kingdom adopted attributes from the previous. Such as Rome adopting architecture and the gods of the Greeks, the Greeks adopting the current system of the Medes etc. Which is why we see the rock destroying all the statue - all the kingdoms ?
Also in the Revelation Rome is called mystery Babylon because the Roman Church adopted the mystery religion of Babylon
I addressed this in post 56
I do not stop at Pagan Rome for the legs - I see also Constantine's so called Christian Empire and also the split between Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire.
The feet I see as the Holy Roman Empire that consisted of the European nations. That today has morphed into the European Union
I can see that
If we are talking about in the time of Jesus' earthly mission, yes they expected the Messiah to free them from Roman rule and set up His Kingdom
Thank you for taking the time to address those comments. The only response I would like to go over is your #5 response. The reason I would like to continue discussing this with you is the timing. As I see it, the clay within the feet is the nation of Israel--- at the time of the coming Messiah. Constantine will not arrive for another 300 years so I do not see him having any play in the chapter 2 metal man image. Thus, the metal man image in chapter 2 up to verse 2:33 seems to present the 4th kingdom at the time of the Messiah - actually just before His arrival.
And the timing of this is critical ... we will not see God using clay ever again after chapter 2 as a symbol of His people, thus this represents Israel held within the pagan Roman empire prior to the arrival of the Messiah. And I agree with you the 4th kingdom is entirely made of iron, a metal, the 4th kingdom is not constructed of iron and clay. The clay is not part of the Roman empire but a nation held captive within the iron empire. They have no power and they have no ability to separate themselves from the power of Rome... they will of course never bond together - clay and iron or Rome and Israel are like oil and water thus they could never bond together.
So, I look forward to your thoughts on the above, thanks.
I am of the opinion that most, if not all of the major 'antichrist' figures throughout the entire Bible have always been about persecuting God's people, mainly the Israelites and later Jews and Christians. So, trying to fit the Papacy into that just doesn't work for me. The Pope doesn't go around telling everyone to destroy Jews and Christians.
That being said, I believe that Daniel 11 and even 12 are specifically about the trials and tribulations of God's people before and after the Crucifixion up to around 70 AD. I have been working on a verse by verse commentary for a long time. Thankfully, I am just about finished. What I am about to conclude is that once those two chapters are clearly exegeted with proper interpretations, it leaves no room whatsoever for any other theory. The prophecies and timeframes are very clear and specific. I have yet to see anyone interpret Daniel 11 and 12 in a way that does not contradict the rest of the Bible.
Here is a quick rundown:
Daniel 11:1 to 11:2 - Chest and Arms of Silver
Medo-Persia and 'Prince of Persia' era.
- Cambyses II
- Bardiya (Smerdis)
- Darius I (The Great)
- Xerxes I (The Great)
Greece and 'Prince of Grecia' era.
- Alexander the Great to Antiochus IV Epiphanes
Rome and 'Prince of Rome (Little Horn)' era
- Julius Caesar to Vespasian
The 'time of trouble' I believe is Jacob's Trouble and the beginning of the Great Tribulation which continues to this very day. The finished work on the Cross is when everyone written in the Book of Life is saved. Etc. Etc.
Thank you for this… you clearly have spent much time and thought in Daniel. It really is a very interesting book! I am sure you are happy to find you are nearing the end of the 12 chapter study…It is quite an accomplishment!
Perhaps you might let everyone know when it is finished and when and if you decide to make it available. Best wishes always!
1)Yes
2)Agree
3)Agree
4)Agree
5)It is not left out.
6)Agree
7) unsure what you mean by are now restored
8) who is they?
All these are my answers with the caveat that I am understanding your questions correctly.
Why then would God describe the clay being destroyed in so many verses?
There was 'no place found' for the clay. How is that the nation of Israel?
The clay appears to be something that is eventually thrown in the Lake of Fire.
How do you interpret that?
I appreciate that you are building consensus, it seems. but I think that can only be done when there is agreed upon system of interpretation.
I doubt I will have much to contribute where the "hermeneutic" is speculation, there is no way to have any kind of dialogue when people are just speculating this and that is going to happen in the future.
That is a hugely important point. This is why I believe that no book of Daniel interpretation can be taken seriously until the 'days' mentioned in Daniel (and even Revelation) are solved.
Until someone has properly exegeted the 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days, they have no business teaching this topic as if they have.
Thanks for responding. As you know, Daniel and many Jews were taken captive in 606 BC. And through each chapter of his book we learn about their journey as they move through time and through the 4 metal kingdoms. They are allowed to return home to Jerusalem and God gives Daniel the 70 weeks of years prophecy. This reveals the time Jerusalem and their way of life is fully restored as it was prior to the Babylonian destruction. And it is at this time they are held captive in the 4th kingdom of iron awaiting the coming of their Messiah (symbolically shown as the clay within the iron feet).
“They” in number 8 refers to the Jewish people who have been fully restored back in Jerusalem with a restored temple, all Levitical ceremonies and services, restored Sabbatical cycles, etc.
That is a great question but I would ask you to remember we have yet to get to 2:34 / 35.
I have found that many contend the clay within the feet represent another kingdom- a 5th. And there are many others than either have not expressed what the clay symbolizes or weaker is a nation within Rome in a later time. So before we look at 2:34 /35, I believe it is important to discuss the identity of the clay since it plays a tremendous part in Daniel - especially 2:34-45.
King James Version
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Historically, the little horn - the Roman papal power - was declared to be the head of all churches by a decree that became effective in AD 538. Exactly 1,260 years later in 1798, Napolean's general Berthier entered Rome with a French army and took the pope prisoner. Although a new pope was elected just two years later, the papacy has not since enjoyed the absolute authority it held during that 1,260-year period.
When the Papacy had absolute power it did indeed persecute the saints of the most high - it is estimated they killed 50 million Christians who would not bow down to her.
No, the Jews were fully restored back from the Babylonian destruction. God is having Daniel record the events, actors, conflicts, etc., as His people are taken captive in 606BC and their return to a fully restored Jerusalem.
If we were to take a snapshot in time of when the clay is symbolically mixed in with the iron feet of Jesus he 4th kingdom- pagan Rome, it would be at the time just before the arrival of the Messiah when He would begin His ministry. This is where we would find the Jewish people and Jerusalem in 2:33 or approximately 27 AD.
Just wanted to be sure, there have been people on CC who are waiting for the temple sacrifices to resume as a form of commemoration.
I see the Roman power represented by the Iron legs and then the feet as the time period that begins with the Earthly ministry of the Messiah and ends with his second coming. In Daniel it says this kingdom will be divided and it was - first into East and West then in 10 nations.
When Rome conquered the territories of Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon , they did not become Iron. They still remain Brass, Silver and Gold to the end, as the Stone breaks the Iron, Clay, Brass, Silver and Gold to pieces together.
All the previous changes when an empire fell, had followed each other on the ordinary and natural course, and the kingdoms were in some sense a continuation of each other, for the great image is one. But this fifth and last kingdom that is no part of the image, that owns a supernatural origin smites the image on the feet (i.e. at the end of its history) grinds it to powder, takes its place, blots it out of existence, and fills the whole earth.
Notice the Stone is separate and hits the feet of the statue - the last stage of it.
It doubtless symbolizes the Second Coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom in power upon this earth.
The stone becomes a mountain
The Image showed that it had two distinct stages: one pure iron, unmixed and undivided; and the other iron and clay mixed, the metallic parts divided. Then we have in this Fourth Beast the dominion of the Little Horn; in both visions judgement falls on the Fourth Empire in its last state, i.e., in its Papal form.
Charlemagne in his day and Napoleon in a later age, tried to restore unity to Roman Empire but both failed.