I find that blasphemous, why would Christ go to the cross become our high priest - abolish and destroy temple worship as in 70AD only to then go back to Jesus is not good enough we need a few goats and chickens and a human high priest for our salvation.
The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8
- Thread starter JustThinking
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It is indeed .................I had to stop conversing with that person, it was troubling me so deeply and they thought it fine.
I am not sure I am understanding the question proper but Israel are still Gods people (if they are Christian I mean) they became other nations they were the barbarians hordes who destroyed the Roman Empire - Galatians in the Bible were known as the Gaul's etc and these tribes formed the European Nations. The name Saxon comes from Issacs son. But even if all that is not true, Gods people - as in Christians are in these Western Nations. It was these nations that embraced Christianity and the Papacy set itself up to rule these Nations and claimed they had the power to send the Kings who did not obey to hell. They persecuted all that wouldn't submit.
So the Papacy is the one that sits in the temple of God - as in Christians are temple - proclaiming to be god - the pope is God on Earth they claim - infallible.
Its the wheat and tares - two kingdoms growing together
I know that answer sounds insane - but to explain fully would be like writing a short book
Great point and to be candid, these are very difficult and confusing time elements. But there are so many more prophetic elements that have not yet been addressed or have been grossly misinterpreted... and that is why these kinds of forums exist today... Daniel is such a wonderful book and there is no shortage of interpretations within the scholarly community, theologians, serious students of Daniel, etc., But should we ever get to the Hebrew chapters I can assure you the time elements you mentioned can be clearly discussed. And, I certainly look forward to your work on them!
And I do not find my take blasphemous, nor yours, we are not replacing Christ and Christians with the anti-Christ and Jews. And I do not mean to upset any futurist btw - I used to be one - but would you not try to warn someone walking towards a cliff edge ?I am not sure I am understanding the question proper but Israel are still Gods people (if they are Christian I mean) they became other nations they were the barbarians hordes who destroyed the Roman Empire - Galatians in the Bible were known as the Gaul's etc and these tribes formed the European Nations. The name Saxon comes from Issacs son. But even if all that is not true, Gods people - as in Christians are in these Western Nations. It was these nations that embraced Christianity and the Papacy set itself up to rule these Nations and claimed they had the power to send the Kings who did not obey to hell. They persecuted all that wouldn't submit.
So the Papacy is the one that sits in the temple of God - as in Christians are temple - proclaiming to be god - the pope is God on Earth they claim - infallible.
Its the wheat and tares - two kingdoms growing together
I know that answer sounds insane - but to explain fully would be like writing a short book
By the way, should you wish to begin a discussion on these time elements perhaps you might begin a new post.... And if possible, and if you agree, perhaps you might want to initiate a new post for each one of these individually since each has their own complexity?
However, the 1290 and the 1335 time elements can be combined since they will use the same calculation but within a different time frame. Thanks.
Its hard to address complex elements in a chat, if the post is to long explaining no one will read it it
Would make a great thread though.
I am not sure I am understanding the question proper but Israel are still Gods people (if they are Christian I mean) they became other nations they were the barbarians hordes who destroyed the Roman Empire - Galatians in the Bible were known as the Gaul's etc and these tribes formed the European Nations. The name Saxon comes from Issacs son. But even if all that is not true, Gods people - as in Christians are in these Western Nations. It was these nations that embraced Christianity and the Papacy set itself up to rule these Nations and claimed they had the power to send the Kings who did not obey to hell. They persecuted all that wouldn't submit.
So the Papacy is the one that sits in the temple of God - as in Christians are temple - proclaiming to be god - the pope is God on Earth they claim - infallible.
Its the wheat and tares - two kingdoms growing together
I know that answer sounds insane - but to explain fully would be like writing a short book
I understand, I am pretty sure I have come across similar historicist views.
At least you didn't say lies lies lies - if you get what I mean
At least you didn't say lies lies lies - if you get what I mean
I reserve that only for "People of the Daniel Gap" (not to be confused with other gaps)!!
When I became a Christian or forced to beI reserve that only for "People of the Daniel Gap" (not to be confused with other gaps)!!
It all seemed so simple as I read the Bible - then I joined my first Church - A Charismatic Baptist church that used the Scofield Bible - then it was - we are the temple of god but the real temple is going to be built soon - you are saved if you accept Christ but God has a different plan for the Jews. When you get Baptised you will speak in tongues as sign you are filled (I must not of been saved because I didn't speak in tongues) The only time I speak in tongues is when I sneeze Anyway it all got very complex for me when I joined that church lol
When I became a Christian or forced to be
Sometimes I think the mission of churches is to make a mess.
With a few key first principles, (one being people can and do believe without be zapped first, lol) and just understanding the message as it was understood by the original audience helps take much of the mess away.
When I became a Christian or forced to be
You were forced to be a Christian? Tell me your story.
h
They were instructed to build the Temple, the Sanctuary, the sacred vessels, the priestly garments, the altars a specific way. They were to keep the sacrificial services, the Sabbatical cycles, the 7 feast days and so much more.
And there entire life centered around the Temple. But the ceremonies were a "type and shadow" of the things that would one day be fulfilled by the Messiah. When He came, He would be our Holy Priest, our perfect Lamb of God who would take away our sins, our Temple and our Sanctuary. All of those things were pointing to the coming Messiah who would fulfill each of them and "do away" with any further need of them. After the cross, they would no longer be holy, they no longer would be needed, they would no longer house the presence of God on earth. Each item, each precious metal, each stone, each holy garment had completed their God given mission on earth as originally prescribed in Leviticus.
Jesus had fulfilled them all. But I can certainly understand why the Jewish people who still reject Jesus as their Messiah desire and expect a 3rd Temple to be rebuilt - that is their pre-cross belief. But it will never happen. And WITHOUT deviating too much and moving to a discussion of Revelation, God will indeed give His people their own corporate "Damascus" experience after the "time of the Gentiles" is fulfilled and they will recognize the One they have pierced. They will then go out into the world exactly as Paul had done and preach the pure Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus for the final 3.5 years and then ... the Messiah. So, no need to consider a 3rd Temple.
I certainly agree with you. There maybe millions of both Christians and obviously Jews who believe a 3rd Temple will be rebuilt. However, there is nothing in scripture that speaks of this. In fact, it really is just the opposite. Moses was given many things to record on Mt. Sinai. The entire Book of Leviticus included all the laws and commands His people should obey as well as the very detailed ceremonial services and practices they must honor,
They were instructed to build the Temple, the Sanctuary, the sacred vessels, the priestly garments, the altars a specific way. They were to keep the sacrificial services, the Sabbatical cycles, the 7 feast days and so much more.
And there entire life centered around the Temple. But the ceremonies were a "type and shadow" of the things that would one day be fulfilled by the Messiah. When He came, He would be our Holy Priest, our perfect Lamb of God who would take away our sins, our Temple and our Sanctuary. All of those things were pointing to the coming Messiah who would fulfill each of them and "do away" with any further need of them. After the cross, they would no longer be holy, they no longer would be needed, they would no longer house the presence of God on earth. Each item, each precious metal, each stone, each holy garment had completed their God given mission on earth as originally prescribed in Leviticus.
Jesus had fulfilled them all. But I can certainly understand why the Jewish people who still reject Jesus as their Messiah desire and expect a 3rd Temple to be rebuilt - that is their pre-cross belief. But it will never happen. And WITHOUT deviating too much and moving to a discussion of Revelation, God will indeed give His people their own corporate "Damascus" experience after the "time of the Gentiles" is fulfilled and they will recognize the One they have pierced. They will then go out into the world exactly as Paul had done and preach the pure Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus for the final 3.5 years and then ... the Messiah. So, no need to consider a 3rd Temple.
When I typed "I became a Christian" in my mind I heard the Calvinists telling me I didn't become I was made to be - so I put "or forced to be" I wasn't forced, in fact it would of been an easier life for me not to become one - because I lost all my friends who thought I had gone mad believing the Bible. And my parents were not happy.You were forced to be a Christian? Tell me your story.
When I was a small child I saw a bible store and pestered my mother to buy me one, which she did, but if I was ever caught reading it, my dad would beat me. So it was not a popular thing for me to do
But I eventually new friends at the church, and even if I did not make friends better to be saved and lonely than popular and damned 
FYI....I part company here .. that "time" was fulfilled in the first century.
Anyway I will bow out here.. while I try to not be dogmatic and I still have much to learn in terms of how everything lines up, this is a settled thing for me.
The time stamps are indisputable.
Sorry, I may have misread your previous posts.
You believe that Daniel 2:34-35 has already happened, correct? That would mean that the clay that got destroyed would be the 70 AD event? Thus, the 'metal man' eventually was completely destroyed around the timeline you referenced:
Am I understanding your posts correctly? Clay is definitely used to represent the Israelites.
Please take a look at this narrative - for your consideration.
The First Strike and the Final Crushing
Rethinking Daniel 2:34–35
As Daniel recounts the dream (2:31–35), many interpreters treat verses 34 and 35 as one instantaneous finale: the Stone appears, the statue shatters, and history ends. Yet Daniel’s own phrasing encourages us to slow down. He narrates a sequence—contact first, then crushing. In verse 34, the focus narrows to the statue’s feet:
“You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay…” (v.34)
This is the moment of impact. The Stone is revealed and strikes the statue precisely where iron and clay are mingled. But Daniel does not yet describe the entire statue being pulverized, blown away, or reduced to dust. Only in verse 35 does the language shift to total destruction:
“Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together and became like chaff…” (v.35)
That single word—then—marks a second stage. First the Stone strikes the feet (v.34). Then the entire image—every metal plus the clay—is crushed together and swept away (v.35). Daniel himself separates the moment of impact from the final disappearance. Within this two-stage reading, verse 34 corresponds to the first coming of the Messiah, and verse 35 corresponds to the final harvest.
The First Strike
When the Stone enters history “in the days of those kings,” it does so during the fourth kingdom—Rome. Yet Christ’s arrival does not topple Rome in a political instant. Instead, His coming produces a decisive separation within the covenant people living under Rome’s iron dominance. That reality is already pictured in the feet: clay present within an iron structure at the final stage of the statue. The iron represents Rome’s hard, dominating power. The clay represents the covenant people embedded within that empire. The Stone strikes the place where those realities appear intertwined—not to annihilate the empire immediately, but to expose and separate what cannot truly remain fused.
This is where Israel divides by its response to the Stone. Some become pliable—moldable in the Potter’s hands, shaped by His Spirit, and drawn into Christ’s kingdom. Others harden—outwardly religious, yet resistant to their own Messiah. The cross becomes the great line of separation: not the moment when the nations disappear, but the moment when God’s kingdom begins inside history, calling out those who receive the Messiah and revealing those who refuse Him.
The Final Crushing
Verse 35 belongs to the end—Daniel’s harvest scene. Here, for the first time, the clay is explicitly listed alongside the metals:
“Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together…” (v.35)
This is not merely Rome collapsing. It is the final removal of everything represented by the statue—every kingdom and every glory, reduced to chaff and carried away. The imagery is winnowing and finality: a divine sweeping that leaves no trace. In other words: the cross is the point of separation; the end is the point of crushing. The Stone strikes first to divide and establish; it returns later to crush and remove.
Why the Later Visions Matter
If the Stone’s strike in 2:34 were already the end of the statue, Daniel’s later visions would have little to describe. Yet Daniel 7, 8, and 11 do not act as though history ended at the Stone’s first appearance. Instead, they unfold a long, detailed story inside the fourth kingdom—precisely what we should expect if 2:34 and 2:35 are not the same event.
Daniel 7: Life in the Fourth Kingdom After the Strike
In Daniel 7, the same four kingdoms reappear as beasts. The fourth beast is dreadful, devouring, and iron-toothed—Rome again. But now we are shown developments that occur after the Messiah has entered history: ten horns arise from the fourth beast, and later a little horn emerges among them.
These horns do not create a fifth kingdom. They describe the later phase of the fourth. The ten toes of Daniel 2, not distinguished in the dream sequence, now appear as horns in Daniel 7—distinct and visible.
Then a religious-political power grows out of that fourth-kingdom landscape: a little horn that speaks great words, persecutes, and corrupts. Such a power presupposes the Messiah’s first coming because it cannot counterfeit what has not yet appeared. It requires:
a true Gospel to distort,
a true Church to imitate,
and covenant truth to corrupt.
This activity belongs between the strike (2:34) and the final crushing (2:35). The fourth kingdom continues long enough for this internal story to unfold before its final judgment.
Daniel 8: The Little Horn and the Post-Cross Distortion
Daniel 8 points in the same direction when read in continuity with chapters 2 and 7. The little horn magnifies itself, casts truth down, interferes with what is sacred, and prospers for a season. Whatever interpretive language one uses for the “daily” and the sanctuary themes, the power described in Daniel 8 functions as a distortion of Christ’s finished work—something that only makes sense in a world after the Stone has entered history. Again: this assumes the strike has happened, and yet the story is still unfolding.
Daniel 11: The Long Conflict Within the Fourth Kingdom
Daniel 11 sharpens the timeline even further. Medo-Persia and Greece pass quickly (11:1–4), and then the narrative slows into a long conflict carried forward under new prophetic titles. Whether one frames these as “north and south” powers in a spiritual or historical way, the chapter’s detailed progression assumes that the Messiah has entered the timeline and that the struggle which follows is not the creation of new empires beyond the four, but the long aftermath of the fourth kingdom and its internal transformations.
The Missing Messiah Problem
This leads to a question that many readers feel, even if they do not state it: Where is the first coming of Christ in Daniel 2 if the Stone appears only at the end? If the Stone belongs solely to a final end-time smash, then the cross—God’s central intervention in history—sits strangely outside the foundational statue.
The image would move from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to Rome and then jump directly to the end, leaving the Messiah’s first coming floating elsewhere. That sits uneasily beside Daniel 9, where the Messiah’s appearing and being “cut off” occupy the center of the seventy weeks (9:24–27).
The two-stage reading resolves that tension. The Messiah appears inside the statue’s timeline, “in the days of those kings,” exactly where the Gospels place Him—within the fourth kingdom.
Why Daniel 2:40–44 Must Be There
This also explains why the interpretation section (2:40–44) is essential. Daniel does not treat it as an optional appendix. It explains what the fourth kingdom looks like after the Stone has come:
iron mixed with clay,
a mixture that is partly strong and partly brittle,
repeated attempts at unity that fail,
and a kingdom God establishes “in the days of those kings” that shall never be destroyed.
If 2:34 were already the final demolition, there would be little need to describe the internal conditions of the fourth kingdom afterward. Daniel includes these details because the Stone’s strike is not the end of history; it is the beginning of a kingdom and a separation that defines what follows.
Conclusion
Taken together, the pattern is coherent:
Daniel 2:34 marks the Stone’s first appearance and strike: the Messiah enters history, the clay is separated by response to Him, and God’s kingdom is established within the fourth kingdom’s world.
Daniel 2:35 describes the final harvest: the entire statue is crushed together—iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold—reduced to chaff and blown away, leaving only the Stone-kingdom that becomes a mountain and fills the whole earth.
The later visions make best sense if this distinction is real. The cross must be inside the statue’s timeline, not outside it. And in Daniel 2, that place is verse 34—the moment the Stone appears, not to pulverize everything at once, but to strike the feet, separate the clay, and begin the kingdom that will one day stand alone when every other kingdom has been swept away.
If I may, that answer can and is found in chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 in Daniel.I am not sure I am understanding the question proper but Israel are still Gods people (if they are Christian I mean) they became other nations they were the barbarians hordes who destroyed the Roman Empire - Galatians in the Bible were known as the Gaul's etc and these tribes formed the European Nations. The name Saxon comes from Issacs son. But even if all that is not true, Gods people - as in Christians are in these Western Nations. It was these nations that embraced Christianity and the Papacy set itself up to rule these Nations and claimed they had the power to send the Kings who did not obey to hell. They persecuted all that wouldn't submit.
So the Papacy is the one that sits in the temple of God - as in Christians are temple - proclaiming to be god - the pope is God on Earth they claim - infallible.
Its the wheat and tares - two kingdoms growing together
I know that answer sounds insane - but to explain fully would be like writing a short book