Error that Refuses to Die

[Musicmaster]

You know, one could say that deals a significant hurdle to my earlier, "not to disputes over doubtful things." (Rom 14:1) with the weak.

Yes, a bit segmented construction there, just including that which shows that second-to-none Apostle sailed through all that un-deterred. Today, we should be outraged that a vigil isn't held for the Church founding handed to us wasn't thankful enough to pass onto us stark provisions of safeguarding unity.

The Poope is about the only one who will succeed in the measure of unity among the world, pagan religions, as we see in the reports and videos being recorded of him seated and talking with the top leaders of other pagan religions besides his own...when he's not speaking on unity with the lettered community...

MM

 

[Aaron56]

Right, whenever you determine to bring up a moral concern, it follows the soft-answer, but throw in some Biblical content and you might get an instant shun as I did yesterday in another 'Sunday-box' setting where I for the time continue, endure, absorb hymnal treasures knowing the Lord knows 'where Satan's seat is'.

Yeah, the box message is often curtailed to suit the needs of the most immature believers. Their "conversions" tend to get the most attention and resources; a relic of evangelistic-based doctrine.

I tarried therein for a time (about 30 years ago).

 

[Aaron56]

Well, no church is perfect and finding the right one may be as difficult as finding a soul-mate,
but we should remember the good reasons for participating with fellow believers, especially
that of finding friends and Christian peers for teenagers (Heb. 10:25).

Yeah, that's not what that passage means.

 

[Aaron56]

People who insist on church attendance often quote this scripture as the gold standard for proof of their assertion:

“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

This is Hebrews Chapter 10, verse 24.

This is just another example of people quoting the scriptures out of context to suit their own needs or to assuage their own consciences.

Let’s look at the whole setting of the verse to first understand the context of the passage and secondly to ascertain the meaning of verse 24 within that setting.

We can begin earlier, but we’ll start at verse 16. The writer of Hebrews is making a fairly exhaustive comparison between the Old Covenant under Moses and the New Covenant under Christ. Throughout the book he juxtaposes the two in order to compare and contrast the tenets of each. The original covenant given to the Jews was the Law of which all were guilty of sin and deserved of God’s punishment. The new covenant was established in Christ, wherein all men receive the forgiveness of sins and may live with a clear conscience toward God as they are led by the Spirit of God. This is a simple explanation only, but it captures the gist of the differences between covenants.

Starting at verse 16 this is written:

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

It is very common for Judaizes to use this verse to say that the Law has simply moved from rock or stone onto men’s hearts but that the tenants and the requirements of the Law still remain. That’s foolish. It ignores the last part, and the deeper meaning of the change of covenant: “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more”.

Whereas the Law never forgot (a price always had to be paid for sin) the New Covenant released one from the debt of sin because there was One Who paid the debt for us: Jesus Christ. So this is a reference to the completely different nature of the New Covenant as compared to the old.

The writer of Hebrews expands upon this principle of the New Covenant next:

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

There it is. The sprinkling and washing references are references to liturgical consecration practices. The Jews would have been familiar with these. The grand difference is this: instead of sprinkling and washing the sacrifices for offering under the Law (Old Covenant) NOW those within the New Covenant are, themselves, washed and consecrated before God and presented as the offerings to Him. This is an exposition of all in Christ who are presented as living sacrifices to God. The standard of the New Covenant is that we are the offering to God to do with and to abide in as He pleases: Christ in us, the hope of glory.

So, this is the run-up to the golden standard verse that people use to compel others to group together in the Sunday boxes. It should be pretty clear by now that the setting of the verse is much more profound than simply attending a meeting. Herein, those within the New Covenant have moved from an existence of a Law that condemned based upon their inability to fulfill the mandates it to a Law now governed by the Lord’s ability to be faithful: “He who promised is faithful.”

So let’s read on…

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

We should notice right away that the admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves is set against a certain Day. Those who use this verse to say it’s about Sunday meetings interpret it like this:

“Do not forsake coming together on Sundays as some people do. But the duty among the people of that order is to exhort, to encourage, to call people up, email them, text them exhorting one another all the more as you see Sunday coming.”

Hopefully by now that seems foolish. But let’s read on…

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I wonder how many “go to churchers!” tell others that to not attend Sunday meetings means that they should expect fiery indignation that devours adversaries. I mean, by all means be consistent! If you’re saying that verse 24 means “Go to church on Sundays” then you must carry it through to the consequence of staying home “You have trampled God underfoot and He will take vengeance on you!”.

How foolish. The Lord knows that empty men will use the scriptures to suit their own needs. What kind of correction awaits someone who uses the Word of God in that manner?

 

[Aaron56]

Now, let’s look at the meaning of verse 24.

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

We should immediately notice that the writer of Hebrews needs a better editor. I mean why talk being together when that is implied in assembling? I mean, he could have simply turned-on Microsoft Grammar to flag redundancies. (Now who’s being stupid? ).

But no, he wrote: “..not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together…”.

The word for “gathering together” is episynagōgē. It is only used one other time in scripture.

Here it is in 2 Thessalonians starting in verse 1:

“1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

Ah. So the context is about being in Christ! If we examine the passage in Hebrews it make perfect sense. The writer was comparing and contrasting the Old and the New covenants. The character of the New Covenant is such so that we are ONE IN CHRIST!. Paul then writes to the saints in Thessaloniki admonishing them about this same principle.

But wait, there’s more! #Ronco

We’ve found The Day that is referenced in Hebrews! Here it is in Paul’s letter:

“2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

See, it’s the Day of Christ’s return. How simple. When we let the scriptures interpret the scriptures our questions are answered. The “Day” that is approaching in Hebrews 10:24 is the Return of the Lord. Not Sunday.

But, we are still left with a question: how are we to be gathered together? What should this look like and how can we partake in it.

I will be brief but succinct. The scriptures, again written by Paul, say this (Ephesians 3 into 4)

“Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. (this is such an interesting scripture I wanted to include it. I don’t have time to unpack it but the implications are rich)

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”

Paul is getting into our inclusion in Christ. To what end? Let’s continue…

1” I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And to continue…

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

This is the standard for the assembling of ourselves: that we may be one in Him. Let’s read on…

11 “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

This is the standard of our assembling of ourselves together: that we work in unison with one another as one body in Christ; being knit together by what every joint supplies, wherein every part does its share. This causes growth of the body as it lifts itself up in love. This is right there at the beginning of Hebrews 10:24:

“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works…”

So, that’s all I have to say about that. Certainly this is not an exhaustive treatise of this topic but just an overview.

 

[GWH]

That, I think raises a question for many scattered Christians, how much error are we permitted to co-exist with to participate in His praises?

Yes. I draw the line at the point disagreement about secondary issues (which I refer to as didache, cf. Phil. 3:15-16),
crosses into error/heresy regarding God's requirement for salvation (which I call the kerygma or creed, cf. John 8:42-44. Gal. 1:6-9).

 

[GWH]

Now, let’s look at the meaning of verse 24.

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

We should immediately notice that the writer of Hebrews needs a better editor. I mean why talk being together when that is implied in assembling? I mean, he could have simply turned-on Microsoft Grammar to flag redundancies. (Now who’s being stupid? ).

But no, he wrote: “..not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together…”.

The word for “gathering together” is episynagōgē. It is only used one other time in scripture.

Here it is in 2 Thessalonians starting in verse 1:

“1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

Ah. So the context is about being in Christ! If we examine the passage in Hebrews it make perfect sense. The writer was comparing and contrasting the Old and the New covenants. The character of the New Covenant is such so that we are ONE IN CHRIST!. Paul then writes to the saints in Thessaloniki admonishing them about this same principle.

But wait, there’s more! #Ronco

We’ve found The Day that is referenced in Hebrews! Here it is in Paul’s letter:

“2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

See, it’s the Day of Christ’s return. How simple. When we let the scriptures interpret the scriptures our questions are answered. The “Day” that is approaching in Hebrews 10:24 is the Return of the Lord. Not Sunday.

But, we are still left with a question: how are we to be gathered together? What should this look like and how can we partake in it.

I will be brief but succinct. The scriptures, again written by Paul, say this (Ephesians 3 into 4)

“Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. (this is such an interesting scripture I wanted to include it. I don’t have time to unpack it but the implications are rich)

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”

Paul is getting into our inclusion in Christ. To what end? Let’s continue…

1” I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And to continue…

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

This is the standard for the assembling of ourselves: that we may be one in Him. Let’s read on…

11 “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

This is the standard of our assembling of ourselves together: that we work in unison with one another as one body in Christ; being knit together by what every joint supplies, wherein every part does its share. This causes growth of the body as it lifts itself up in love. This is right there at the beginning of Hebrews 10:24:

“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works…”

So, that’s all I have to say about that. Certainly this is not an exhaustive treatise of this topic but just an overview.

Well, you have your treatise, but I know from experience both as a teenager and as a parent the importance of having a cadre of Christian friends with whom to fellowship at church activities, so I affirm the truth of Heb. 10:24-25, even though at this time I have not found a church that has good Bible teaching, traditional music in worship services and is local/in the neighborhood.

 

[Aaron56]

Well, you have your treatise, but I know from experience both as a teenager and as a parent the importance of having a cadre of Christian friends with whom to fellowship at church activities, so I affirm the truth of Heb. 10:24-25, even though at this time I have not found a church that has good Bible teaching, traditional music in worship services and is local/in the neighborhood.

Yeah, anecdotal evidence is never a good argument against the meaning of scripture... no matter how much you "feel" it.

 

[JohnDB]

Now, let’s look at the meaning of verse 24.

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

We should immediately notice that the writer of Hebrews needs a better editor. I mean why talk being together when that is implied in assembling? I mean, he could have simply turned-on Microsoft Grammar to flag redundancies. (Now who’s being stupid? ).

But no, he wrote: “..not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together…”.

The word for “gathering together” is episynagōgē. It is only used one other time in scripture.

Here it is in 2 Thessalonians starting in verse 1:

“1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

Ah. So the context is about being in Christ! If we examine the passage in Hebrews it make perfect sense. The writer was comparing and contrasting the Old and the New covenants. The character of the New Covenant is such so that we are ONE IN CHRIST!. Paul then writes to the saints in Thessaloniki admonishing them about this same principle.

But wait, there’s more! #Ronco

We’ve found The Day that is referenced in Hebrews! Here it is in Paul’s letter:

“2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

See, it’s the Day of Christ’s return. How simple. When we let the scriptures interpret the scriptures our questions are answered. The “Day” that is approaching in Hebrews 10:24 is the Return of the Lord. Not Sunday.

But, we are still left with a question: how are we to be gathered together? What should this look like and how can we partake in it.

I will be brief but succinct. The scriptures, again written by Paul, say this (Ephesians 3 into 4)

“Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. (this is such an interesting scripture I wanted to include it. I don’t have time to unpack it but the implications are rich)

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”

Paul is getting into our inclusion in Christ. To what end? Let’s continue…

1” I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And to continue…

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

This is the standard for the assembling of ourselves: that we may be one in Him. Let’s read on…

11 “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

This is the standard of our assembling of ourselves together: that we work in unison with one another as one body in Christ; being knit together by what every joint supplies, wherein every part does its share. This causes growth of the body as it lifts itself up in love. This is right there at the beginning of Hebrews 10:24:

“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works…”

So, that’s all I have to say about that. Certainly this is not an exhaustive treatise of this topic but just an overview.

Wow..

Would never have thought someone could be this wrong....

But now I see I'm wrong.

 

[Musicmaster]

People who insist on church attendance often quote this scripture as the gold standard for proof of their assertion:

“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

This is Hebrews Chapter 10, verse 24.

This is just another example of people quoting the scriptures out of context to suit their own needs or to assuage their own consciences.

You know, I never could master the impossible art of fellowshipping, exhorting, teaching and sharing with the backs of other people's heads...

MM

 

[Aaron56]

You know, I never could master the impossible art of fellowshipping, exhorting, teaching and sharing with the backs of other people's heads...

MM

Don't worry: many gatherings have a time of hand-shaking and greeting. Try to fill that fellowship quota as quickly as possible!

 

[Musicmaster]

Don't worry: many gatherings have a time of hand-shaking and greeting. Try to fill that fellowship quota as quickly as possible!

True indeed. The man-made, pastoral system couched within the institutional model is not only a waste of resources, but keep the so-called "laity" in bondage to the pews or stadium chairs or whatever the seating style may be. The institutionalist always has the same narrative about there being fellowship time in their "cell" or home groups, never minding that the cell group model of the institutions still tend toward sanitized meeting formulas given that the institutional model is populated with people who know nothing about what true fellowship entails and how dangerous it is to microcosmic autonomy, self-reliance and enveloped secrecy as opposed to each one being an open book.

MM

 

[Aaron56]

True indeed. The man-made, pastoral system couched within the institutional model is not only a waste of resources, but keep the so-called "laity" in bondage to the pews or stadium chairs or whatever the seating style may be. The institutionalist always has the same narrative about there being fellowship time in their "cell" or home groups, never minding that the cell group model of the institutions still tend toward sanitized meeting formulas given that the institutional model is populated with people who know nothing about what true fellowship entails and how dangerous it is to microcosmic autonomy, self-reliance and enveloped secrecy as opposed to each one being an open book.

MM

Dude. You nailed it.

 

[biblestudent78]

 

[PAC-fit]

Yeah, the box message is often curtailed to suit the needs of the most immature believers. Their "conversions" tend to get the most attention and resources; a relic of evangelistic-based doctrine.

I tarried therein for a time (about 30 years ago).

Hmm, I ran a GPT search, there is a shift on the scales between liturgical vs evangelical conversions. The evans are much more common to beat with calls of the heart over the natural birth-induced numbers. As we know, the whole smear wanes of a good tally.

 

[PAC-fit]

The video is a good review to aid in drawing together. But I would like to know if you agree with the narrator's final insertion that,

", , careful, faithful people have arrived at differences because scripture contains tensions that cannot be resolved through human reasoning, , scripture is, , multivalent" (def. having various meanings or values).

I believe this to be the standard rogue treatment.

In recent times, some scholars feel the fruit of the Holy Spirit's "gentleness" has sat dormant against the predominately common religious tone. What if this has actually and radically been underestimated? Theological tensions of interpreting scripture might well have suffered from rogue treatment just enough to swing wide of the intended target. Now I'm not suggesting whether gentleness should replace theological rigor, but whether the Spirit's gentleness is largely absent, instead having "gentleness" itself an indispensable and unshakable part of theological rigor?

Receive with meekness the implanted word..." (James 1:21)

 

[GWH]

Yeah, anecdotal evidence is never a good argument against the meaning of scripture... no matter how much you "feel" it.

My anecdote and feelings agree with Heb. 10:25. Sorry yours contradict it.

 

[biblestudent78]

The video is a good review to aid in drawing together. But I would like to know if you agree with the narrator's final insertion that,

", , careful, faithful people have arrived at differences because scripture contains tensions that cannot be resolved through human reasoning, , scripture is, , multivalent" (def. having various meanings or values).

I believe this to be the standard rogue treatment.

In recent times, some scholars feel the fruit of the Holy Spirit's "gentleness" has sat dormant against the predominately common religious tone. What if this has actually and radically been underestimated? Theological tensions of interpreting scripture might well have suffered from rogue treatment just enough to swing wide of the intended target. Now I'm not suggesting whether gentleness should replace theological rigor, but whether the Spirit's gentleness is largely absent, instead having "gentleness" itself an indispensable and unshakable part of theological rigor?

Receive with meekness the implanted word..." (James 1:21)

I did not take the part you quoted as a theological statement, but a statement of facts on the ground. While the video focuses on three major denominational categories, underneath each are scores of variants each as separate from each other as the main Christian movements are. At their core is a rock solid belief and conviction that the interpretive lens my group uses to understand the scriptures is the only one consistent with those scriptures.

IMHO often stated, it has been my experience that the sects most demanding of my way or the highway interpretation are the least likely to follow those same scriptures. Divorce rates the same for pagans and uber-christians, entertainment, business practices, family cohesion and personal and church related service to the poor, the wounded, the abandoned, the addicted, the dirty, the disabled and the hungry is no better and is often worse than civic (non Christian) delivery of needed services. We put our faith in what we believe on Sunday but it never shows up on Monday morning in how we live. You can claim perfect biblical orthodoxy about theology, but Christianity was and is about how you live, who you love, who you are willing to accept as your "neighbor." Conveniently, we define "conversion" as a mental exercise, a conceptual framework totally disassociated with who we are and who we are becoming. IMHO, no one can claim conversion unless their day to day life is changed and they are focused on joining Jesus mission of loving, healing, reconciliation, repentance and personal prayer. We are very good are baptizing believers "to raise and walk in newness of life" but have no clue to give them what the "new life" is or any assistance in living it. What good is being baptised into a new life for which we have no clue and no human example?

 

[Aaron56]

My anecdote and feelings agree with Heb. 10:25. Sorry yours contradict it.

Yeah. Par for the course.

 

[GWH]

Yeah. Par for the course.

More like a bogie for the hole.