Contentment in singlehood

[Lovette]

The wheel keeps on turning
And turning
And turning
And...

Nothing's disturbing
The way it goes around

- Edie Brickell

What God joined together, let no man separate; but what God did NOT join together, how about let no man join together either?

And just to clarify, I'm not here to condemn marriage, I never intended to do so; I'm only condemning the idolatry of marriage and the disparaging of singlehood.

 

[RodColeman]

Oh, so there is no verse in the Bible where we're commanded to stay single as Christians. Got it.

Show me one verse in the entire Bible when anyone in any era is commanded to marry.

There is none. I never said anyone is required to marry.

What you want and desire is one thing, what God wants and desires is another, the final outcome is up to the Lord.

So why are you so adamant that people choose singleness over marriage? Is God requiring that of the modern-day Christian? No. Did God ever tell you to stay single for a lifetime? He's never told me that. And even if He did tell you, personally, to never marry, well, why are you preaching that command to everyone else?

I did mean to mock you, though. Your "another Christian" is purely imaginary, not only do you presume the existence of such a person, but also her consent and willingness to share the rest of her life with you, whom she knows little or nothing about; and you still fail to explain "why", if not to keep up with your peers.

Um, I'm not the only Christian living in the world. If you're in a Christian community, you're going to find other Christians. And if you want to get married, why wouldn't you look for a potential partner in a Christian community? We're not supposed to marry unbelievers, after all. I mean, if I'm currently unemployed, then my future job is also "purely imaginary," as you put it. Guess I shouldn't devote any effort to finding a job, then!

Where is this other Christian, how do you even know they're really Christian, and why should they marry you? Do you follow Christ for Him, or for Him to match you up with a partner?

I'm not following Christ so He can match me up with a partner. I never said I was. You seem to think everyone has to make a choice between the two, and that pursuing both things is impossible or sinful. I find that idea strange. However, if you think doing both is impossible, well, you do have the freedom to choose to never marry. Nothing wrong with that.

Desires for romance/marriage/sex is neither genuine nor fine, when it's out of your lust.

Desiring those things is not automatically "lust." It’s not necessarily “lust” to simply have strong sexual desires. Our lusts are usually for something, or someone, specific, while our desires are more general. Remember, in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul addresses people who "burn with passion" but he doesn't accuse those people of lusting. He encourages those people to marry.

It’s helpful to consider what Jesus said about lust in Matthew 5:27-28: “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Another way to translate this is “whoever looks at a woman in order to lust for her.” It’s OK to find the opposite sex attractive. That happens all the time in biblical stories, even. When we start imagining ourselves “taking” them is when we start lusting.

Genuine desires lead to a companionship and then a friendship, the probability of marriage is slowly developed over years of cultivation. If you directly desire for marriage, then the only motive is lust, since marriage herein serves as a license for sex, a container of burning passion, again, with no respect for your partner, you're simply using her flesh to satisfy your own flesh, then for your partner's wellbeing, leave her alone.

It's OK to have a general desire to be married, a general desire to have a partner, and even a general desire to experience sex. Those desires are not wrong. What are you supposed to do, purge yourself of the desire for romance or sex? Pray it away? Good luck with that. I have the impression that you, personally have zero desire for romance or sex. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. If so, however, you also seem to believe that everyone else should be like this, too. And if they're not, well, they're doing life wrong. Is that how you see things?

I don't know about you, man, I simply have no time or energy for such folly.

Well, not everyone's like you, even if you wish that they were. Even if you think that makes you superior to them. Remember, in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul said that he wishes that everyone was like him (a single man who's genuinely content with being single) but he also concedes that not everyone is like that. And that's fine. Paul doesn't condemn those people or look down his nose at them.

I did mean to mock you, though.

Oh. Glad you cleared that up. Hahaha! That makes me think of 1 Peter 1:5-7: "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."

Or Galatians 6:9-10: "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."

If marriage is really so bad and worldly and impossible and pointless, well, maybe God, Jesus, or Paul should have just outright condemned it or forbidden it altogether, instead of permitting it. Hahaha!

 

[Lovette]

Oh, so there is no verse in the Bible where we're commanded to stay single as Christians. Got it.

Neither is there any command to must get married as Christians. Got it.

btw, the statement in Gen. 2:24 is for man to join his wife, it's for already married couples, not singles.

 

[Lovette]

So why are you so adamant that people choose singleness over marriage? Is God requiring that of the modern-day Christian? No. Did God ever tell you to stay single for a lifetime? He's never told me that. And even if He did tell you, personally, to never marry, well, why are you preaching that command to everyone else?

I never said it's for "everyone", neither is it stated so anywhere in the bible. All I stated is a matter of fact, that all are born as singles, nobody is entitled to a partner from birth, whether you eventually get married is up to God.

And don't take my word for it, there's a huge gap between expected marriage rate and actual marriage rate, and a huge gap between expected number of kids and actual number of kids, there're even documentaries for this subjects. And do you know what this gap is called? Disappointment. Therefore what I preach is just CAUTION for such disappointment, to avoid it in the first place, lest it leaves you devastated, to the extent of doubting God, depression or even suicide.

Um, I'm not the only Christian living in the world. If you're in a Christian community, you're going to find other Christians. And if you want to get married, why wouldn't you look for a potential partner in a Christian community? We're not supposed to marry unbelievers, after all. I mean, if I'm currently unemployed, then my future job is also "purely imaginary," as you put it. Guess I shouldn't devote any effort to finding a job, then!



I'm not following Christ so He can match me up with a partner. I never said I was. You seem to think everyone has to make a choice between the two, and that pursuing both things is impossible or sinful. I find that idea strange. However, if you think doing both is impossible, well, you do have the freedom to choose to never marry. Nothing wrong with that.



Desiring those things is not automatically "lust." It’s not necessarily “lust” to simply have strong sexual desires. Our lusts are usually for something, or someone, specific, while our desires are more general. Remember, in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul addresses people who "burn with passion" but he doesn't accuse those people of lusting. He encourages those people to marry.

It’s helpful to consider what Jesus said about lust in Matthew 5:27-28: “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Another way to translate this is “whoever looks at a woman in order to lust for her.” It’s OK to find the opposite sex attractive. That happens all the time in biblical stories, even. When we start imagining ourselves “taking” them is when we start lusting.



It's OK to have a general desire to be married, a general desire to have a partner, and even a general desire to experience sex. Those desires are not wrong. What are you supposed to do, purge yourself of the desire for romance or sex? Pray it away? Good luck with that. I have the impression that you, personally have zero desire for romance or sex. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. If so, however, you also seem to believe that everyone else should be like this, too. And if they're not, well, they're doing life wrong. Is that how you see things?



Well, not everyone's like you, even if you wish that they were. Even if you think that makes you superior to them. Remember, in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul said that he wishes that everyone was like him (a single man who's genuinely content with being single) but he also concedes that not everyone is like that. And that's fine. Paul doesn't condemn those people or look down his nose at them.

"If you're in a Christian community, you're going to find other Christians” is completely unsubstantiated assumption, not only do you assume there is "another Christian" for you, but she's also single, at the right age, looking for partner, insterested in you, willing and consent to spend the rest of her life with you, with the approval of her family and friends; and most important of all, whether she's really Christian, or just wearing that label. You don't know any of these, and none of these is promised by God, therefore all your arguments are meaningless gibberish with no bearing in reality.

You keep saying that this is fine, that is OK, but none of it is fine or OK, because the fact of the matter is, when you desire for sex/romance/marriage without a real partner in flesh and blood to absorb that desire, that is nothing but your vain imagination, and that is idolatry. All your "OKs" and "fines" are naviete or denial - or both. Why should anybody give themselves to you, for the satisfaction of your selfish desire, so you can be "fine" and "OK?

And even if there is such a partner, the Lord I knew taught me to love my neighbor as myself, not to use my neighbor to love myself.

Oh. Glad you cleared that up. Hahaha! That makes me think of 1 Peter 1:5-7: "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."

Or Galatians 6:9-10: "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."

If marriage is really so bad and worldly and impossible and pointless, well, maybe God, Jesus, or Paul should have just outright condemned it or forbidden it altogether, instead of permitting it. Hahaha!

As a historic fact, Elijah was single, Paul, Timothy, John were singles, early church fathers were singles, priests and nuns were singles, and most of all, Lord Jesus himself was single. A vow of celibacy is a token of your faith, and it's voluntary. Whatever theology you cling to, whatever is "fine" to you, whatever you interpret any biblical instruction on marriage, whether marriage was permitted, discouraged or forbidden, actions speak louder than words, and I don't follow hypocrites.

 

[RodColeman]

I never said it's for "everyone", neither is it stated so anywhere in the bible. All I stated is a matter of fact, that all are born as singles, nobody is entitled to a partner from birth, whether you eventually get married is up to God.

And don't take my word for it, there's a huge gap between expected marriage rate and actual marriage rate, and a huge gap between expected number of kids and actual number of kids, there're even documentaries for this subjects. And do you know what this gap is called? Disappointment. Therefore what I preach is just CAUTION for such disappointment, to avoid it in the first place, lest it leaves you devastated, to the extent of doubting God, depression or even suicide.


"If you're in a Christian community, you're going to find other Christians” is completely unsubstantiated assumption, not only do you assume there is "another Christian" for you, but she's also single, at the right age, looking for partner, insterested in you, willing and consent to spend the rest of her life with you, with the approval of her family and friends; and most important of all, whether she's really Christian, or just wearing that label. You don't know any of these, and none of these is promised by God, therefore all your arguments are meaningless gibberish with no bearing in reality.

You keep saying that this is fine, that is OK, but none of it is fine or OK, because the fact of the matter is, when you desire for sex/romance/marriage without a real partner in flesh and blood to absorb that desire, that is nothing but your vain imagination, and that is idolatry. All your "OKs" and "fines" are naviete or denial - or both. Why should anybody give themselves to you, for the satisfaction of your selfish desire, so you can be "fine" and "OK?

And even if there is such a partner, the Lord I knew taught me to love my neighbor as myself, not to use my neighbor to love myself

As a historic fact, Elijah was single, Paul, Timothy, John were singles, early church fathers were singles, priests and nuns were singles, and most of all, Lord Jesus himself was single. A vow of celibacy is a token of your faith, and it's voluntary. Whatever theology you cling to, whatever is "fine" to you, whatever you interpret any biblical instruction on marriage, whether marriage was permitted, discouraged or forbidden, actions speak louder than words, and I don't follow hypocrites.

So singleness isn't for everyone. Got it. I agree. And Nobody is "entitled" to a partner. Got it. I agree. I never said anyone was.

Apparently, you want everyone to stay single. Well, OK. Maybe you find it surprising that more people don't choose singleness. Fine. I don't find it surprising, but that's just me. Nor do I look down my nose at these people. If it personally bothers you so much when you see other people get married, well, I can't really help you.

I never said there's another Christian out there that you're guaranteed to marry. You keep saying something like "a potential future partner" is completely imaginary." Um, OK? If you mean to say that we're not guaranteed marriage, I would agree with you. That point would make more sense, if that's the point you intend to make here.

"You keep saying that this is fine, that is OK, but none of it is fine or OK, because the fact of the matter is, when you desire for sex/romance/marriage without a real partner in flesh and blood to absorb that desire, that is nothing but your vain imagination, and that is idolatry."

Really? Where does the Bible state that? Can you give me a verse?

"Why should anybody give themselves to you, for the satisfaction of your selfish desire, so you can be "fine" and "OK?" If you think marriage is a "selfish desire," well, good news, Lovette: you don't have to get married. It's not a selfish. desire. God designed marriage. If I'm married and I have the desire for kids, am I also guilty of being selfish?

Yes, certain biblical characters were single. So what? That doesn't mean all Christians today are required to be single. There's also biblical characters who were married. Does that mean all Christians today are required to be married? No. And why is is "hypocritical" to pursue marriage?

 

[Lynx]

Back and forth
And back and forth
And back and forth
Around again

- Edie Brickell

 

[Lovette]

So singleness isn't for everyone. Got it. I agree. And Nobody is "entitled" to a partner. Got it. I agree. I never said anyone was.

Apparently, you want everyone to stay single. Well, OK. Maybe you find it surprising that more people don't choose singleness. Fine. I don't find it surprising, but that's just me. Nor do I look down my nose at these people. If it personally bothers you so much when you see other people get married, well, I can't really help you.

I never said there's another Christian out there that you're guaranteed to marry. You keep saying something like "a potential future partner" is completely imaginary." Um, OK? If you mean to say that we're not guaranteed marriage, I would agree with you. That point would make more sense, if that's the point you intend to make here.

"You keep saying that this is fine, that is OK, but none of it is fine or OK, because the fact of the matter is, when you desire for sex/romance/marriage without a real partner in flesh and blood to absorb that desire, that is nothing but your vain imagination, and that is idolatry."

Really? Where does the Bible state that? Can you give me a verse?

Do you really need a verse to understand that God joins man and woman into marriage, not you and your totally imaginary, hypothetical soul mate? If you do have a partner, however, the shift the topic of the discussion from the merit of marriage or singleness to the merit of that partner, i.e. instead of whether marriage is fine, singleness is fine, the desire thereof is fine, but whether your particular partner is fine.

"Why should anybody give themselves to you, for the satisfaction of your selfish desire, so you can be "fine" and "OK?" If you think marriage is a "selfish desire," well, good news, Lovette: you don't have to get married. It's not a selfish. desire. God designed marriage. If I'm married and I have the desire for kids, am I also guilty of being selfish?

Only you can answer that, if your only motive behind your desire is to use your wife as a breeder for kids to prolong your genetic line.

Yes, certain biblical characters were single. So what?

So they're the role models to follow. Should we conform to the image of Christ or not? All your questions are loaded strawmans, on top of a false dichotomy, that all Christians should be like this or like that, don't you even know that marriage is for all mankind, for heathens and Christians, Jews and gentiles, easterners and westerners, civilized and barbarians alike? Therefore marriage is a worldly affair, you maintain your marital status when you're called into the body of Christ, you're called single, remain single; you're called married, remain married. You don't come to the church to escape from your marriage, neither do you come to the church to find a partner for marriage, that's not what Christ died for, neither is it what church is built for, is that clear?

 

[RodColeman]

Do you really need a verse to understand that God joins man and woman into marriage, not you and your totally imaginary, hypothetical soul mate? If you do have a partner, however, the shift the topic of the discussion from the merit of marriage or singleness to the merit of that partner, i.e. instead of whether marriage is fine, singleness is fine, the desire thereof is fine, but whether your particular partner is fine.

Only you can answer that, if your only motive behind your desire is to use your wife as a breeder for kids to prolong your genetic line.

So they're the role models to follow. Should we conform to the image of Christ or not? All your questions are loaded strawmans, on top of a false dichotomy, that all Christians should be like this or like that, don't you even know that marriage is for all mankind, for heathens and Christians, Jews and gentiles, easterners and westerners, civilized and barbarians alike? Therefore marriage is a worldly affair, you maintain your marital status when you're called into the body of Christ, you're called single, remain single; you're called married, remain married. You don't come to the church to escape from your marriage, neither do you come to the church to find a partner for marriage, that's not what Christ died for, neither is it what church is built for, is that clear?

So the unmarried biblical characters are the role models to follow. Um, what about the married biblical characters? They're not? That's weird. And where in the Bible are we commanded to stay single?

And why do you presume to know the motives of every married person? Are you a mind reader? From your other statements, it seems like you don't even know that many married people personally. And yet you know all about their (apparently bad) reasons for marrying?

And I never taught anything about "soulmates." Or what all Christians "should" be like. I never once said that Christians are required to marry.You're the one who's saying all Christians should stay single.

The Bible doesn't require you to stay single if you become a Christian as a single person. The Bible permits us to marry.

And how is marriage a purely "world affair" when God instituted it at the beginning of time, and said it "wasn't good" for man to be alone?

 

[Lovette]

So the unmarried biblical characters are the role models to follow. Um, what about the married biblical characters? They're not? That's weird. And where in the Bible are we commanded to stay single?

Where in the Bible are we commanded to get married?

And why do you presume to know the motives of every married person? Are you a mind reader? From your other statements, it seems like you don't even know that many married people personally. And yet you know all about their (apparently bad) reasons for marrying?

I don't, Paul did. "Better to get married than burn in passion." This reasoning obviously suggests that your spouse is the container of your burning passion.

And I never taught anything about "soulmates." Or what all Christians "should" be like. I never once said that Christians are required to marry.You're the one who's saying all Christians should stay single.

No I'm not. "Those who can accept it, let them accept it." Besides, there're those who're born "eunuch" and made "eunuch", if that's your situation, accept it and find contentment in it also.

And how is marriage a purely "world affair" when God instituted it at the beginning of time, and said it "wasn't good" for man to be alone?

Because it's not uniquely instituted for Christians or Jews or any other religions, but for all mankind, including indigenous tribes. We can talk about the sanctity of marriage, how was it instituted at the beginning, and how it has been perverted and exploited in modern world, but it seems you have no interest in those angles.

 

[Lynx]

If you do have a partner, however, the shift the topic of the discussion from the merit of marriage or singleness to the merit of that partner, i.e. instead of whether marriage is fine, singleness is fine, the desire thereof is fine, but whether your particular partner is fine.

Wife, from the background: "You betta say I'm fine!"

 

[RodColeman]

Where in the Bible are we commanded to get married?

I don't, Paul did. "Better to get married than burn in passion." This reasoning obviously suggests that your spouse is the container of your burning passion.

No I'm not. "Those who can accept it, let them accept it." Besides, there're those who're born "eunuch" and made "eunuch", if that's your situation, accept it and find contentment in it also.

Because it's not uniquely instituted for Christians or Jews or any other religions, but for all mankind, including indigenous tribes. We can talk about the sanctity of marriage, how was it instituted at the beginning, and how it has been perverted and exploited in modern world, but it seems you have no interest in those angles.

I never once said we're commanded to get married. I said it's OK to desire marriage and that it's also OK to stay single if you so choose.

And did you just say that it's OK to get married? Great! I agree with you.

And why does the Bible permit marriage if it's so evil and worldly?

 

[Lovette]

I never once said we're commanded to get married. I said it's OK to desire marriage and that it's also OK to stay single if you so choose.

And did you just say that it's OK to get married? Great! I agree with you.

And why does the Bible permit marriage if it's so evil and worldly?

Save your loaded questions to yourself. Strawman doesn't suit you.

 

[RodColeman]

Save your loaded questions to yourself. Strawman doesn't suit you.

Huh?

 

[Lovette]

Huh?

Save your "huh" to yourself. I never disparaged marriage in that way. Only is it evil when it's done in an evil way for evil purpose, such as sex trafficking; and only is it worldly because it's for all mankind, not just Christians.

 

[RodColeman]

Save your "huh" to yourself. I never disparaged marriage in that way. Only is it evil when it's done in an evil way for evil purpose, such as sex trafficking; and only is it worldly because it's for all mankind, not just Christians.

Oh, so marriage between Christians isn't bad, and not a bad thing to pursue as a Christian. I agree!

 

[Lovette]

Oh, so marriage between Christians isn't bad, and not a bad thing to pursue as a Christian. I agree!

Nope, marriage is NEUTRAL, good or bad depends on your and your partner, what you guys bring to the table.

 

[RodColeman]

Nope, marriage is NEUTRAL, good or bad depends on your and your partner, what you guys bring to the table.

I see. So if you're "good," i.e., you're a Christian dating another Christian, and you're ready for marriage, and you want to marry, and your lives are in good shape, your lifestyles are healthy, your careers can provide for a family........is it then OK to marry? Or is still all just a big distraction and a waste of time?

And what do you mean by marriage being done for the purpose of "sex trafficking"?

 

[Lynx]

Save your "huh" to yourself. I never disparaged marriage in that way. Only is it evil when it's done in an evil way for evil purpose, such as sex trafficking; and only is it worldly because it's for all mankind, not just Christians.

Now that is a bold-faced lie! You have thoroughly, repeatedly, roundly, exhaustively disparaged marriage. You have touted being single and put down marriage all over this forum.

 

[Lovette]

I see. So if you're "good," i.e., you're a Christian dating another Christian, and you're ready for marriage, and you want to marry, and your lives are in good shape, your lifestyles are healthy, your careers can provide for a family........is it then OK to marry? Or is still all just a big distraction and a waste of time?

And what do you mean by marriage being done for the purpose of "sex trafficking"?

Sir, there's no one size fits all solution or instruction for everyone, that's the gist in 1 Cor. 7. "Sex trafficking" is just an extreme example, so are other forms of coerced, manipulated, extorted marriages. If you keep dropping rhetorical questions with your false presupposition that there is one size fits all solution or instruction, or there is such a godly, lovely Christian partner who'd drop from the sky just for you, then again, keep your "huh" to yourself. All I can say is that this kind of phony baloney is neither fine nor OK.

 

[Lovette]

Now that is a bold-faced lie! You have thoroughly, repeatedly, roundly, exhaustively disparaged marriage. You have touted being single and put down marriage all over this forum.

Yeah, so did Lord Jesus, who utterly disparaged the Pharisees' sham marriage of serial monogamy, and the Sadducees' erroneous understanding on marriage. The only thing I have thoroughly, repeatedly, roundly, exhaustively disparaged is the IDOLATRY of marriage, the discrimination against singles, as though marriage itself makes you superior over your single peers and even closer to God. But perhaps you're too dull to see the difference.