The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

[Researcher]

I don't think we are told what the clay mixed with iron refers to.

One needs to add all of the clues of the entire Bible together to see the larger picture. Clay is the 'seed of men', literally sperm/DNA. It is the ingredients to make a human, or any kind of life for that matter. The KJV is the clearest translation:

Daniel 2:43 - And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

They do not 'cleave' as in normal conception between a man and a woman's seed. The verse is implying that the mingling of DNA is not done in a natural way. Think of the image and mark of the beast. Think of the return of the Giants. It all has to be added to the equation which the OP is not doing. The meaning is hugely profound and terrifying. We are almost there.

The Stone that destroys the image is Abraham's Seed. Thus, it is the final 'battle of seeds' that began in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Feet in the Old Testament are sometimes related to male genitals and themes of childbirth. The symbolism in this thread is not being properly understood. The 'Giant' (hint hint) image is all about the DNA of mankind becoming more and more inferior after each generation until it becomes weak and broken.

Again, clay is the ingredients that people are made of. Iron is symbolic of high technology. The two will be mixed, hence the Mark of the Beast. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 will be the one to bring this transhuman agenda to fruition. God has no choice but to step in and do something about it. So far, no one has offered any reason as to why God has to do something so drastic as to sterilize the entire planet of contamination.

Anyhow, there are tons of videos, books and websites that teach this stuff. Not sure why the folks here are not up to speed. Spirit at work perhaps?

 

[JustThinking]

One needs to add all of the clues of the entire Bible together to see the larger picture. Clay is the 'seed of men', literally sperm/DNA. It is the ingredients to make a human, or any kind of life for that matter. The KJV is the clearest translation:



They do not 'cleave' as in normal conception between a man and a woman's seed. The verse is implying that the mingling of DNA is not done in a natural way. Think of the image and mark of the beast. Think of the return of the Giants. It all has to be added to the equation which the OP is not doing. The meaning is hugely profound and terrifying. We are almost there.

The Stone that destroys the image is Abraham's Seed. Thus, it is the final 'battle of seeds' that began in the Garden of Eden.



Feet in the Old Testament are sometimes related to male genitals and themes of childbirth. The symbolism in this thread is not being properly understood. The 'Giant' (hint hint) image is all about the DNA of mankind becoming more and more inferior after each generation until it becomes weak and broken.

Again, clay is the ingredients that people are made of. Iron is symbolic of high technology. The two will be mixed, hence the Mark of the Beast. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 will be the one to bring this transhuman agenda to fruition. God has no choice but to step in and do something about it. So far, no one has offered any reason as to why God has to do something so drastic as to sterilize the entire planet of contamination.

Anyhow, there are tons of videos, books and websites that teach this stuff. Not sure why the folks here are not up to speed. Spirit at work perhaps?

So please tell me, if you will, how you are interpreting the clay within the feet of the iron kingdom? Thanks.

 

[JustThinking]

the best fit in the opinion of the reformers and me as well is that its talking about the papacy. they do persecute the saints, they are behind ecumenical movement, they did change the times and the laws, and most importantly it is the only power that fits the time period.
the little horn arises after the destruction of western rome into 10 nations, 3 of which got plucked up and the papacy that little horn did rise up.

Thanks for your comments. Although we are still discussing the two open issues within chapter 2 - the identity of the clay and does verse 2:34 represent the first coming of the Messiah, I would like to ask you a few questions that will be discussed in the early part of a chapter 7 discussion:

1) Do you find that the 10 toes from chapter 2 are the same as the 10 horns in chapter 7?

2) If so, do you know why God would change the symbol from 10 toes to 10 horns?

3) And if so, do you see there would have to be a time period that has taken place between when the 10 are identified as toes to when they are identified as horns?

4) And if so, do you agree that the 10 horns, which are shown to "come out" of the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome - v. 7) must have "come out "BEFORE" the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome was slain in 476 AD - v.11)? Meaning of course, that the 10 horns came into existence before the demise of pagan Rome.

Thanks.

 

[Melach]

Thanks for your comments. Although we are still discussing the two open issues within chapter 2 - the identity of the clay and does verse 2:34 represent the first coming of the Messiah, I would like to ask you a few questions that will be discussed in the early part of a chapter 7 discussion:

1) Do you find that the 10 toes from chapter 2 are the same as the 10 horns in chapter 7?

2) If so, do you know why God would change the symbol from 10 toes to 10 horns?

3) And if so, do you see there would have to be a time period that has taken place between when the 10 are identified as toes to when they are identified as horns?

4) And if so, do you agree that the 10 horns, which are shown to "come out" of the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome - v. 7) must have "come out "BEFORE" the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome was slain in 476 AD - v.11)? Meaning of course, that the 10 horns came into existence before the demise of pagan Rome.

Thanks.

1. i do yes
2. the bible many times uses different symbols for the same thing. think of the parables of Jesus Christ, He talks about wheat, sheep, yet both are about the redeemed people.
3. yes since its future from daniel's pov.
4. they definitely did exist yes, heres what i believe the 10 represent from among which the papacy arose:

• Anglo-Saxons
• Franks
• Allemans
• Burgundians
• Visigoths
• Suevi
• Vandals
• Heruli
• Bavarians
• Ostrogoths
  

(taken from ellicott as i obviously do not remember all of these by name )

 

[Delvianna]

Thanks for your comments. Although we are still discussing the two open issues within chapter 2 - the identity of the clay and does verse 2:34 represent the first coming of the Messiah, I would like to ask you a few questions that will be discussed in the early part of a chapter 7 discussion:

1) Do you find that the 10 toes from chapter 2 are the same as the 10 horns in chapter 7?

2) If so, do you know why God would change the symbol from 10 toes to 10 horns?

3) And if so, do you see there would have to be a time period that has taken place between when the 10 are identified as toes to when they are identified as horns?

4) And if so, do you agree that the 10 horns, which are shown to "come out" of the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome - v. 7) must have "come out "BEFORE" the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome was slain in 476 AD - v.11)? Meaning of course, that the 10 horns came into existence before the demise of pagan Rome.

Thanks.

I was re-thinking this over recently, and I've come to the conclusion that the 4th Kingdom is not Rome, but its the future 10 king kingdom of the Anti-Christ and has zero to do with Rome. Here's my argument as to why:

Each section is part of 1 statue which means they all have to be apart of the same thing.
When you look at the territory involved, it's clear that this is a physical territory piece which makes sense why it's 1 statue. Now, I understand that Rome controlled the same land areas and split into 2 (legs) however, Rome fell. It never split into 10.

So Daniel says:

Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

And look what he says next:

“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Which means this cannot be a previous kingdom.

Also, Rome never "breaks/smashes everything". Rome isn't known for destruction of countries. It conquered them and ruled, but didn't destroy. So this cannot be Rome.

 

[WayneNSO]

1. i do yes
2. the bible many times uses different symbols for the same thing. think of the parables of Jesus Christ, He talks about wheat, sheep, yet both are about the redeemed people.
3. yes since its future from daniel's pov.
4. they definitely did exist yes, heres what i believe the 10 represent from among which the papacy arose:

• Anglo-Saxons
• Franks
• Allemans
• Burgundians
• Visigoths
• Suevi
• Vandals
• Heruli
• Bavarians
• Ostrogoths

(taken from ellicott as i obviously do not remember all of these by name )

Someone once said - you have no right teaching prophecy unless you have read The Horae Apocalypticae by E. B. Elliot

 

[JustThinking]

1. i do yes
2. the bible many times uses different symbols for the same thing. think of the parables of Jesus Christ, He talks about wheat, sheep, yet both are about the redeemed people.
3. yes since its future from daniel's pov.
4. they definitely did exist yes, heres what i believe the 10 represent from among which the papacy arose:

• Anglo-Saxons
• Franks
• Allemans
• Burgundians
• Visigoths
• Suevi
• Vandals
• Heruli
• Bavarians
• Ostrogoths

(taken from ellicott as i obviously do not remember all of these by name )

Thank you. If you do not mind, regarding #4 - do you believe / agree that the 10 toes / 10 horns had to come before the demise of pagan Rome - v. 7:11?

 

[Researcher]

So please tell me, if you will, how you are interpreting the clay within the feet of the iron kingdom? Thanks.

I first interpret with basic common sense, then I do a deep dive.

Daniel - 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Who are 'they'?:
The word 'they' is a personal pronoun. That means that whoever 'they' are, 'they' are *not* the seed of men, 'they' are something else.

Who are the 'seed of men'?:
The 'seed of men' refers to humans:


Conclusion:
'They' are not human. 'Clay' is human. It's just that simple.

Now, once we have that information we can make two assumptions:

1. 'They' refers to the Iron
2. 'Seed of men' refers to the clay

What is the Iron?
It is the Fourth Kingdom.

What is the Clay?
If we look at other verses, we find that it is not just clay but *miry* clay. Long story short, 'miry clay' goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden where the First Adam was made from the 'dust':

Strong's Hebrew: 2917. טִינָא (tin) -- Mud, Clay

Psalms 40:2 - He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

Like I said earlier, the clay is the ingredients to make humans. We came from dust, we return to dust:

2 Samuel 22:43 - Then did I beat them as small as the dust of the earth, I did stamp them as the mire of the street, and did spread them abroad.

One day you folks will understand this to mean Genome which is synonymous with Soul.

 

[JustThinking]

I was re-thinking this over recently, and I've come to the conclusion that the 4th Kingdom is not Rome, but its the future 10 king kingdom of the Anti-Christ and has zero to do with Rome. Here's my argument as to why:

Each section is part of 1 statue which means they all have to be apart of the same thing.
When you look at the territory involved, it's clear that this is a physical territory piece which makes sense why it's 1 statue. Now, I understand that Rome controlled the same land areas and split into 2 (legs) however, Rome fell. It never split into 10.

So Daniel says:


And look what he says next:


Which means this cannot be a previous kingdom.

Also, Rome never "breaks/smashes everything". Rome isn't known for destruction of countries. It conquered them and ruled, but didn't destroy. So this cannot be Rome.

You have raised several different reasons for identifying the fourth kingdom as a future ten-king kingdom rather than Rome. I think it would be helpful to separate them and consider them one at a time, because each claim depends upon a different part of the passage.

As I understand your position, you are making the following arguments:

1. Because all four kingdoms appear within one statue, they must occupy essentially the same territory.
2. Rome cannot be the fourth kingdom because Rome eventually fell.
3. The fourth kingdom must instead be a future kingdom composed of ten kings.
4. Rome never divided into exactly ten parts.
5. Daniel 2:44 places God’s kingdom in the days of those kings, so the kingdom described must still be future.
6. Rome does not fit the description of breaking, crushing, and smashing everything.

Each of those deserves a separate response. But before moving into the toes, the ten kings, or the timing of verse 44, perhaps we should begin with the most basic question:

Which kingdom historically followed Greece and exercised dominion over the land, Jerusalem, and God’s people?

Daniel presents the kingdoms as successive:

Babylon is followed by another kingdom, that kingdom is followed by a third, and then a fourth kingdom arises. If Babylon is first, Medo-Persia second, and Greece third, what kingdom immediately succeeded the Greek world and ruled Judea when the Messiah came?
Historically, that kingdom was Rome.

If the fourth kingdom is instead a still-future ten-king empire, then Rome—the power that succeeded Greece, ruled at the time of Christ, and destroyed Jerusalem—has no place anywhere in the image. The sequence would effectively move from ancient Greece to a future kingdom more than two thousand years later without mentioning the empire that actually came between them.

Before discussing whether the later feet and toes describe divisions within Rome, could we first settle this narrower question:

Do you believe Daniel intentionally omitted Rome altogether, even though Rome directly succeeded the Greek kingdoms and ruled God’s people at the coming of the Messiah?

Once we have considered that issue, we can move separately to whether the feet and toes remain part of the fourth kingdom, what “in the days of those kings” means, and whether Rome satisfies the description of iron.

 

[JustThinking]

Someone once said - you have no right teaching prophecy unless you have read The Horae Apocalypticae by E. B. Elliot

That was me! And I was lying!!!!!!!

 

[JustThinking]

I first interpret with basic common sense, then I do a deep dive.



Who are 'they'?:
The word 'they' is a personal pronoun. That means that whoever 'they' are, 'they' are *not* the seed of men, 'they' are something else.

Who are the 'seed of men'?:
The 'seed of men' refers to humans:

View attachment 292422
Conclusion:
'They' are not human. 'Clay' is human. It's just that simple.

Now, once we have that information we can make two assumptions:

1. 'They' refers to the Iron
2. 'Seed of men' refers to the clay

What is the Iron?
It is the Fourth Kingdom.

What is the Clay?
If we look at other verses, we find that it is not just clay but *miry* clay. Long story short, 'miry clay' goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden where the First Adam was made from the 'dust':

View attachment 292424

Strong's Hebrew: 2917. טִינָא (tin) -- Mud, Clay

Like I said earlier, the clay is the ingredients to make humans. We came from dust, we return to dust:



One day you folks will understand this to mean Genome which is synonymous with Soul.

I think we may be moving much too far beyond what Daniel 2 is actually showing us.

Before discussing genomes, souls, or the creation of Adam, could we first stay with the basic structure of the image?

Daniel identifies:

• gold as the first kingdom,
• silver as the second,
• bronze as the third,
• iron as the fourth.

The clay then appears only in the feet of the iron kingdom. It is not introduced as another kingdom, another metal, or as the material from which all human beings are made.

So my question is much simpler:

What does the clay represent within the fourth kingdom at the time the Stone strikes the feet?

The statement that “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men” does not prove that the clay is human DNA or a genome. Daniel does not mention DNA, genetics, or the soul. Those ideas are being brought into the passage from outside it.

I am only trying to understand the flow of Daniel 2 itself:

I am only trying to understand the flow of Daniel 2 itself (at this time in Daniel);

1. Four kingdoms are presented.
2. The fourth kingdom is iron.
3. Clay appears within its feet.
4. The Stone strikes those feet.

Before going any further, what do you believe the clay represents within that sequence?

And this is very important, we have NOT discussed verses 2:40 - 45 at all for two reasons:

1) Even within Daniel these are some of the most difficult verses to interpret - really, really difficult. And they will not make any sense unless one interprets the clay as representing His people at the time of the cross while they are held captive within the 4th kingdom of Rome,

2) If we did not decide to unpack these verses, BUT instead accepted that the clay does represent the Jewish nation at the time the Stone strikes the feet and that strike was symbolizing the separation of His people into those who would accept Him (Pottery clay) and those who would reject Him (miry or ceramic clay), then we could move onto chapter 7.

I do not remember you ever expressing this interpretation earlier.. and to be candid, I have never ever heard anyone interpret these verses this way... but it you would like to discuss them also (verses 40-45), it will indeed take time to go through and the outcome will definitely be that the clay is Israel and the Stone in 2:34 is the first coming of the Messiah. But, your opinion and interpretations are just as important as anyone's. Let me know if you want to unpack those verses one at a time....

 

[Researcher]

What does the clay represent within the fourth kingdom at the time the Stone strikes the feet?

When the Stone struck the feet and became a great mountain, did the great mountain slowly grow over many centuries or was it instantaneous?

 

[GaryA]

And this is very important, we have NOT discussed verses 2:40 - 45 at all for two reasons:

1) Even within Daniel these are some of the most difficult verses to interpret - really, really difficult. And they will not make any sense unless one interprets the clay as representing His people at the time of the cross while they are held captive within the 4th kingdom of Rome,

I have to disagree.

2) If we did not decide to unpack these verses, BUT instead accepted that the clay does represent the Jewish nation at the time the Stone strikes the feet and that strike was symbolizing the separation of His people into those who would accept Him (Pottery clay) and those who would reject Him (miry or ceramic clay), then we could move onto chapter 7.

That is too great and far-reaching of an assumption for me to simply accept and start building something on top of it...

I do not remember you ever expressing this interpretation earlier.. and to be candid, I have never ever heard anyone interpret these verses this way...

I have never heard anyone interpret these verses the way you are...

I understand what you are saying and see how it fits into your overall view; however, I have not determined that it fits into everything in my overall view.

 

[JustThinking]

When the Stone struck the feet and became a great mountain, did the great mountain slowly grow over many centuries or was it instantaneous?

As I had mentioned earlier in one of my responses, the Stone, Jesus, established His church at the cross. His Apostles and followers would then be given the great commission and they would preach the word of God and the testimony of Jesus throughout the Empire. That would begin the growth of His mountain and would continue to grow globally until His return.

 

[GaryA]

Does that mean you are a historicist? I have heard of the great tribulation being past and future but never that it started back then and has continued on till this day. How does that work?

In short, it is essentially this - we know with certainty from scripture exactly when the 'Great Tribulation' begins and when it ends - relative to other 'events' described/detailed in scripture.

In our history, we have actually seen the events associated with the beginning of it; however, we have not [yet] seen the events associated with the end of it.

It started circa 70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future. Therefore, we are in it now...

And (BTW) - this is the reason why a 'pre-trib' rapture is literally impossible - there can be no 'pre-trib' anything - because, we are already beyond/past the beginning of it - nothing else can be previous to it...

 

[JustThinking]

I have to disagree.


That is too great and far-reaching of an assumption for me to simply accept and start building something on top of it...


I have never heard anyone interpret these verses the way you are...

I understand what you are saying and see how it fits into your overall view; however, I have not determined that it fits into everything in my overall view.

I an assure you that you have never heard or read these interpretations ever - they are completely different than either of the two major "accepted interpretations" found in the christian community.

But Gary, this is exactly why I wanted to have these discussions with folks that have a strong interest in the Book of Daniel. I have absolutely no desire to tell people what they should believe - this forum and every other forum and every denomination has their experts that proclaim they have the correct interpretation of Daniel.... but once again, there are really only two major sets of interpretations.

I have completed my commentary on Daniel and published it on 3/10 /26 and have literally spent 7 full years unpacking and tearing each verse apart... My approach at the beginning was to take those two major sets of interpretations and understand them and try to learn as much as possible - why each has made their different set of interpretations. And remember, we are talking about the brilliant scholars all the way up to today's time. And yet they do not agree in so many ways.

Consequently, I decided to try and interpret Daniel... and now I would like to ask those questions - beginning with chapter 2 since it is the foundational chapter for all that comes after... for the remaining 10 chapters. If you get chapter 2 wrong, then there is no possibility of getting any of Daniel right - I don't mean minor interpretations, but the true prophecises given to Daniel by God.

So, without telling anyone what to think, I am attempting to walk through chapter 2 with anyone that is interested in Daniel. I ask them to share their interpretations (at this time) of what are and how many kingdoms are within the metal man image, what does the clay represent, who is the Stone that strikes the feet and what does that mean. Does it mean, as everyone contends, the entire statute is destroyed or just the two elements of iron and clay are broken into pieces for a very specific reason.

So, what are your thoughts on these verses in the early part of chapter 2... do you disagree with my assessment of the 4 kingdoms, the clay, the Stone... I am willing to discuss those with you as with anyone here.

 

[GaryA]

I do not see Daniel saying that the iron and clay were 'separated' upon being 'smote' by the stone (Jesus) in verse 34; rather, the iron and clay feet - still a mixture of iron and clay [til the very end of its existence] - were broken into pieces. Nor do I see a significant gap between verse 34 and verse 35 - I see the "breaking into pieces" process continuing to consume the entire statue after it has begun at the feet. Furthermore, I see the iron-and-clay mixture 'divided kingdom' including both the iron and clay in the kingdom (i.e. both the iron and the clay are [together] part of the same kingdom) for the full span of time that is the feet-and-toes span of time of the kingdom. The feet and toes are all part of the same kingdom. The iron and clay are all part of the same kingdom.

 

[Melach]

Thank you. If you do not mind, regarding #4 - do you believe / agree that the 10 toes / 10 horns had to come before the demise of pagan Rome - v. 7:11?

i think the 10toes/horns come from the 4th kingdom. if thats what ur asking. so i guess those nation did exist before the fall of rome, just as underneath rome

 

[JustThinking]

i think the 10toes/horns come from the 4th kingdom. if thats what ur asking. so i guess those nation did exist before the fall of rome, just as underneath rome

Thank you. And yes, it is very important that folks will recognize this… the 10 toes were within the iron feet in chapter 2.

And although we have not moved on to chapter 7 yet, they will be now referred to as 10 horns (powers) that are COMING OUT “ of that same 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

So there will be at few two critical questions to answer:

1) what was the reason / cause for the 10 toes to “come out” of the 4th beast when they were WITHIN the 4th beast in chapter two, and,

2) since they “came out” (now visible) in early part of chapter 7 AND existed BEFORE the destruction of the 4th beast in 476AD, does that eliminate them from being a 10 member nation or power that comes in the future?

3) and these changes or movements presented to us from one chapter to the next do NOT occur WITHOUT a cause - no different than at anytime in the world, something causes something else to happen… (and in this case could it possibly be the Stone striking the feet that has broken the iron and the clay in 2:34 in pieces (as opposed to the Stone being treated as an end time destructive event?)

God has given us the 4 and only 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2. He then gives us the “actions or events” that He finds important and wants us to see. Those two actions are found in 2:34- the first coming of the Messiah, and then in 2:35 - His return.

That is the big picture He is giving us in chapter 2. The rest of Daniel will explain and expand on ALL those “actions and movements” BETWEEN 2:34 and 2:35.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[Researcher]

As I had mentioned earlier in one of my responses, the Stone, Jesus, established His church at the cross. His Apostles and followers would then be given the great commission and they would preach the word of God and the testimony of Jesus throughout the Empire. That would begin the growth of His mountain and would continue to grow globally until His return.

Thanks. Sorry I missed that.

Is the mountain the same as Mount Zion/Sion?

Examples:

Hebrews 12:22 - But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1 - And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

Thanks.