The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

[WayneNSO]

I apologize for that... there is a ton that has gone back and forth and you can see just how complicated Daniel is and it can be so frustrating to try and impart on the comments that surround almost every interpretation - especially when they will deviate so dramatically from "today's accepted interpretations."

Here is how I view (maybe) how you are seeing things at this time:

I think you might agree there are only 4 metal kingdoms within God's plan,

The clay is the only non-metalic element within chapter 2 and hopefuly, you might see they symbolize His people when they are back in Jerusalem awaiting His first coming,

And I think the only other open issue may be that you find that His first coming as found in 2:34 is meant to establish His church through the cross and also to separate those of His people who would accept Him as their Messiah - they, of course would be His Apostles, Pau, and the many followers that would be found at Pentecost. They represent the "Pottery clay" who will preach the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus after the cross.

Can you tell me why the clay isn't part of the legs please ?

 

[Delvianna]

I apologize for that... there is a ton that has gone back and forth and you can see just how complicated Daniel is and it can be so frustrating to try and impart on the comments that surround almost every interpretation - especially when they will deviate so dramatically from "today's accepted interpretations."

Here is how I view (maybe) how you are seeing things at this time:

I think you might agree there are only 4 metal kingdoms within God's plan,

The clay is the only non-metalic element within chapter 2 and hopefuly, you might see they symbolize His people when they are back in Jerusalem awaiting His first coming,

And I think the only other open issue may be that you find that His first coming as found in 2:34 is meant to establish His church through the cross and also to separate those of His people who would accept Him as their Messiah - they, of course would be His Apostles, Pau, and the many followers that would be found at Pentecost. They represent the "Pottery clay" who will preach the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus after the cross.

I just meant which response to me directly you'd like me to comment on, since there were several lol, but that's okay, I'll respond to this one.

I think you might agree there are only 4 metal kingdoms within God's plan,

Correct

The clay is the only non-metalic element within chapter 2 and hopefuly, you might see they symbolize His people when they are back in Jerusalem awaiting His first coming,

I do not, due to the context that Daniel gives himself. To infer there is more symbolic meaning attached to the answer Daniel already gave Nebuchadnezzar, would be doing something that no where else in scripture is done. Which is assigning a symbol double meaning via completely separate context (which goes into my next response).

And I think the only other open issue may be that you find that His first coming as found in 2:34 is meant to establish His church through the cross and also to separate those of His people who would accept Him as their Messiah - they, of course would be His Apostles, Pau, and the many followers that would be found at Pentecost. They represent the "Pottery clay" who will preach the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus after the cross.

I think to merge two separate depictions is doing a disservice to Daniel. Clay doesn't always = the elect. Just because it was used in 1 example elsewhere, doesn't mean the same should be applied. Daniel gave the meaning for the clay which is found in verse 42.

If clay = The elect, then you would have to conclude that Jesus (the rock) smashes His own people (verses 44 and 45). Because the rock doesn't just smash the iron, it smashes ALL the toes.

 

[Delvianna]

Can you tell me why the clay isn't part of the legs please ?

When you have something splits (like 2 legs), it means that kingdom is split in 2. When you have something like 10 toes, it means that kingdom is split into 10. In the case of the depictions, it would be like this:

Leg 1 = section 1
Contains 5 smaller sections within section 1

Leg 2 = Section 2
Contains 5 smaller sections within section 2

But combined, they form 1 kingdom.

An example is like the United States who currently owns and runs Puerto Rico despite it not being a state. That would be a split, but still under the same country, United States.

 

[Inquisitor]

Okay, I don't want to be noisy, but i believe the only place in the US that uses that term "swamp cooler" is maybe in New Mexico?

Manufactured units—often using wet Aspen wood pads—became widespread in the 1930s, particularly in hot, dry states like Arizona. Because "evaporative cooler" is a bit of a mouthful, the "swamp cooler" nickname stuck to describe the humid, marsh-like environment they could produce if not properly maintained. (AI)

 

[WayneNSO]

When you have something splits (like 2 legs), it means that kingdom is split in 2. When you have something like 10 toes, it means that kingdom is split into 10. In the case of the depictions, it would be like this:

Leg 1 = section 1
Contains 5 smaller sections within section 1

Leg 2 = Section 2
Contains 5 smaller sections within section 2

But combined, they form 1 kingdom.

An example is like the United States who currently owns and runs Puerto Rico despite it not being a state. That would be a split, but still under the same country, United States.

I agree that Rome first split into two, East and West - Rome and Constantinople - But I do not think the two legs depict this, after all it has two arms and two thighs also, it is just to make up the figure of a man.

As for the ten sections making one kingdom, the Western Roman Empire was revived as ten separate nations who gave their power to the Papacy - so we can have ten kings over ten kingdoms and one head.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[Delvianna]

I agree that Rome first split into two, East and West - Rome and Constantinople - But I do not think the two legs depict this, after all it has two arms and two thighs also, it is just to make up the figure of a man.

As for the ten sections making one kingdom, the Western Roman Empire was revived as ten separate nations who gave their power to the Papacy - so we can have ten kings over ten kingdoms and one head.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The two arms/chest and stomach/theighs are two different kingdoms. Each area of the statue is a different kingdom. Daniel explains this in verses 36+

 

[JustThinking]

Can you tell me why the clay isn't part of the legs please ?

God’s people were physically present during all four kingdoms. They lived under Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Yet the clay is not shown mixed with the gold, silver, or bronze, or within the legs or feet of Rome (at that time). That suggests their mere physical presence inside a Gentile empire is not the reason God introduces the clay.

The image first establishes the four-kingdom structure. Gold, silver, bronze, and iron represent the successive Gentile powers through which God’s people would pass. Those metals provide the fixed historical framework of the prophecy.

During the first three kingdoms, Israel’s restoration was still unfolding. Babylon had destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people away. Under Medo-Persia, they began returning, rebuilding the temple, and restoring the city. Those developments continued through the Greek period. By the time the prophecy reaches the iron feet of Rome, however, the restoration has reached its decisive stage. Israel is again established in the land. Jerusalem has been rebuilt. The temple is functioning. The priesthood, sacrifices, festivals, and national religious life are again present. Most importantly, the sixty-nine weeks—483 years—are approaching their fulfillment, and the people are awaiting Messiah the Prince. That is when God introduces the clay.

The clay therefore does not appear merely because Israelites happen to live inside the Roman Empire. It appears because God’s covenant people have now been restored to Jerusalem and have reached the appointed moment when the Messiah is about to come. This also explains why the clay is not blended into the substance of the earlier metals. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are the four ruling kingdoms. Israel is not another empire and does not contribute to the political strength of any of them. The clay is placed only within the feet of iron because Rome is the kingdom ruling when Israel’s restoration reaches its purpose and the Stone arrives.

Rome remains the iron. Israel remains the clay. They are mixed together only because Rome rules Judea, but they never become one people or one kingdom. Rome does not share its imperial authority with Israel, and Israel retains its distinct covenant identity. So the appearance of the clay specifically in the feet is not arbitrary. God first establishes the four Gentile kingdoms, then reveals His restored people within the fourth kingdom at the exact point when the Messiah is about to enter history, and Israel (clay) was not part of the Roman Empire (legs) until the restoration of His people and His city were completed. The clay is found only in the feet because that is where the story of the kingdoms reaches the central purpose for which Israel and Jerusalem were restored: the coming of the Stone.

 

[JustThinking]

When you have something splits (like 2 legs), it means that kingdom is split in 2. When you have something like 10 toes, it means that kingdom is split into 10. In the case of the depictions, it would be like this:

Leg 1 = section 1
Contains 5 smaller sections within section 1

Leg 2 = Section 2
Contains 5 smaller sections within section 2

But combined, they form 1 kingdom.

An example is like the United States who currently owns and runs Puerto Rico despite it not being a state. That would be a split, but still under the same country, United States.

If you will, this will indeed be answered when we begin to discuss chapter 7.

 

[JustThinking]

Manufactured units—often using wet Aspen wood pads—became widespread in the 1930s, particularly in hot, dry states like Arizona. Because "evaporative cooler" is a bit of a mouthful, the "swamp cooler" nickname stuck to describe the humid, marsh-like environment they could produce if not properly maintained. (AI)

Thank you very much.... BTW, was my question sent to you? Or are you simply answering it? Thanks.

 

[WayneNSO]

The two arms/chest and stomach/theighs are two different kingdoms. Each area of the statue is a different kingdom. Daniel explains this in verses 36+

Different KIngdoms yes:

Gold Head = Babylon
Silver Chest and Arms = Medo-Persia
Brass Belly and Thighs = Greece
Iron legs = Rome

 

[Inquisitor]

Thank you very much.... BTW, was my question sent to you? Or are you simply answering it? Thanks.

Just commenting on an interesting phrase "swamp cooler".

Funny name.

 

[WayneNSO]

God’s people were physically present during all four kingdoms. They lived under Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Yet the clay is not shown mixed with the gold, silver, or bronze, or within the legs or feet of Rome (at that time). That suggests their mere physical presence inside a Gentile empire is not the reason God introduces the clay.

The image first establishes the four-kingdom structure. Gold, silver, bronze, and iron represent the successive Gentile powers through which God’s people would pass. Those metals provide the fixed historical framework of the prophecy.

During the first three kingdoms, Israel’s restoration was still unfolding. Babylon had destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people away. Under Medo-Persia, they began returning, rebuilding the temple, and restoring the city. Those developments continued through the Greek period. By the time the prophecy reaches the iron feet of Rome, however, the restoration has reached its decisive stage. Israel is again established in the land. Jerusalem has been rebuilt. The temple is functioning. The priesthood, sacrifices, festivals, and national religious life are again present. Most importantly, the sixty-nine weeks—483 years—are approaching their fulfillment, and the people are awaiting Messiah the Prince. That is when God introduces the clay.

The clay therefore does not appear merely because Israelites happen to live inside the Roman Empire. It appears because God’s covenant people have now been restored to Jerusalem and have reached the appointed moment when the Messiah is about to come. This also explains why the clay is not blended into the substance of the earlier metals. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are the four ruling kingdoms. Israel is not another empire and does not contribute to the political strength of any of them. The clay is placed only within the feet of iron because Rome is the kingdom ruling when Israel’s restoration reaches its purpose and the Stone arrives.

Rome remains the iron. Israel remains the clay. They are mixed together only because Rome rules Judea, but they never become one people or one kingdom. Rome does not share its imperial authority with Israel, and Israel retains its distinct covenant identity. So the appearance of the clay specifically in the feet is not arbitrary. God first establishes the four Gentile kingdoms, then reveals His restored people within the fourth kingdom at the exact point when the Messiah is about to enter history, and Israel (clay) was not part of the Roman Empire (legs) until the restoration of His people and His city were completed. The clay is found only in the feet because that is where the story of the kingdoms reaches the central purpose for which Israel and Jerusalem were restored: the coming of the Stone.

Thank you for the reply

 

[JustThinking]

I agree that Rome first split into two, East and West - Rome and Constantinople - But I do not think the two legs depict this, after all it has two arms and two thighs also, it is just to make up the figure of a man.

As for the ten sections making one kingdom, the Western Roman Empire was revived as ten separate nations who gave their power to the Papacy - so we can have ten kings over ten kingdoms and one head.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Again, this is a chapter 7 discussion... however, and forgive me, but we must finish up with chapter 2 first. I have just looked at a few of today's responses and find that my responses have not been accepted or satisfied the open issues - clay and that 2:34 represents the first coming of Messiah.

Unless I am mistaken, there are at least two folks that consider these two issues unresolved or not satisfactorily addressed.

 

[WayneNSO]

Again, this is a chapter 7 discussion... however, and forgive me, but we must finish up with chapter 2 first. I have just looked at a few of today's responses and find that my responses have not been accepted or satisfied the open issues - clay and that 2:34 represents the first coming of Messiah.

Unless I am mistaken, there are at least two folks that consider these two issues unresolved or not satisfactorily addressed.

Delvianna had replied to me on a question about the legs I put to you - I thought it was ok to reply to what she said to me ?

 

[JustThinking]

Just commenting on an interesting phrase "swamp cooler".

Funny name.

I think it may have been sent to @Researcher - he may have been the first to comment on it... but he has yet to respond...I think I may have asked him if this meant he may be residing in New Mexico....

I cannot imagine you folks in Australia would install them...

 

[JustThinking]

Delvianna had replied to me on a question about the legs I put to you - I thought it was ok to reply to what she said to me ?

Are you kidding? I don't seem to be successful in answering her questions... I am sure you will do a much better job! Further, I do seem to be running low on my lies....

 

[cv5]

You are forbidden to use the term "gap" in any manner.... No gap... no gap... please no gap!

Gap? Of course there is a "gap". You are quite literally existing and abiding in this (PRESENT) CHURCH AGE gap. You didn't get the memo?

It is only after this CHURCH AGE "gap" ends (at the harpazo), does the time of Jacob's trouble at the hand of the Satan-man (the little horn) commence. Which of course results in the full and final REPENTANCE and faith of the Nation Israel. This prophecy now fulfilled, Messiah Jesus Go'el returns to destroy the armies of the anti-christ and usher in the DOTL aka the AGE TO COME.

Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mat 17:11
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Act 3:21
“whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[DavidLamb]

Hello David and thank you for your thoughts! That is a fair question, but I would prefer not to move into Daniel 8 before we have completed the foundation established in Daniel 2.

At the moment, I am asking us to focus on three basic questions from the text immediately before us:

1. Does the image contain four kingdoms, or does the clay introduce a fifth kingdom?​

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2. Does the clay represent part of Rome itself, or a separate people found within the Roman kingdom?​

​

3. Does the Stone’s first impact in verse 34 destroy the entire image, or does it initially strike and separate the iron and clay in the feet?​

Those conclusions will directly affect how we later understand the horns in chapters 7 and 8. If we move ahead now and begin interpreting the little horns before agreeing on the structure established in chapter 2, we will simply bring our existing conclusions backward into the earlier chapter.

Regarding Daniel 8:9, I do not believe the wording requires the little horn to arise from one of the four horns. The phrase “out of one of them” will refer back to the four winds, not the four notable ones. But that grammatical and structural question deserves a much fuller discussion when we reach chapter 8.

So I am not avoiding your question. I am asking that we take Daniel in order and allow each chapter to establish the foundation for the next. Once we have completed chapter 2 and then examined the fourth beast and ten horns of chapter 7, we will be in a much better position to determine whether the little horn of chapter 8 is the same power, a related power, or an entirely different one.

The earlier chapters should interpret the later ones, not the later chapters control the meaning of Daniel 2 before Daniel 2 has been settled.

In the meantime, I would welcome your thoughts on the open items we are still discussing in chapter 2 – agree or not.

Thanks. Sorry did not refer to Daniel 2 in my reply, but I was answering your point about the two little horns. I'll try to answer your questions now:

1. I would say 4 kingdoms, the feet and toes partly of iron, partly of clay being the fourth kingdom divided, as Daniel explains:

(Dan 2:41 NKJV) Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

2. Daniel does not say which kingdoms any of the parts of the statue represent, apart from saying that the gold head was Nebuchadnezzar himself. The mixture of iron and clay could have been Rome, but was Rome divided?

3. It seems that the stone crushed the feet, causing the whole statue to fall and be broken:

(Dan 2:34-35 NKJV) You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

 

[DavidLamb]

By the way, I may have missed it but have you offered your thoughts on what I believe to be the two open issues within the chapter 2 discussion?

1) your thoughts on the identity of the clay,

I don't think we are told what the clay mixed with iron refers to.

2) your thoughts on verse 2:34 - Stone being His first coming..

I believe that the stone refers to the Saviour, yes.

3) any other open issues you might see thus far?

Not at present.

 

[Melach]

God devotes a remarkable amount of attention to the little horn in Daniel 7, 8, 9, and 11. Yet this figure is often identified almost immediately, without first gathering and carefully examining all of the details Daniel provides.

Before deciding who the little horn is, perhaps we should ask the text itself:

When does this power arise?​

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From what kingdom or political setting does it emerge?​

​

What conditions allow it to come to power?​

​

How is it different from the powers that come before it?​

​

What actions does it take against God, His truth, His sanctuary, His law, and His people?​

​

How long does its influence continue?​

​

Is it presented as one short-lived individual, a succession of rulers, or a continuing religious-political power?​

What relationship does it have to the fourth kingdom, the Prince, the daily, the covenant, the abomination, and the final judgment?​

Rather than beginning with Antiochus, Satan, or a future Antichrist and then fitting the verses into that conclusion, perhaps we should first assemble every identifying mark Daniel gives us. Once those characteristics are placed side by side, we can then ask which historical or future power actually fulfills the entire description—not merely a few selected features. So, before naming the little horn, we might try to answer some of the identifying marks (above) and / or others, given to us within Daniel.

the best fit in the opinion of the reformers and me as well is that its talking about the papacy. they do persecute the saints, they are behind ecumenical movement, they did change the times and the laws, and most importantly it is the only power that fits the time period.
the little horn arises after the destruction of western rome into 10 nations, 3 of which got plucked up and the papacy that little horn did rise up.