The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

[Melach]

Thank you. And yes, it is very important that folks will recognize this… the 10 toes were within the iron feet in chapter 2.

And although we have not moved on to chapter 7 yet, they will be now referred to as 10 horns (powers) that are COMING OUT “ of that same 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

So there will be at few two critical questions to answer:

1) what was the reason / cause for the 10 toes to “come out” of the 4th beast when they were WITHIN the 4th beast in chapter two, and,

2) since they “came out” (now visible) in early part of chapter 7 AND existed BEFORE the destruction of the 4th beast in 476AD, does that eliminate them from being a 10 member nation or power that comes in the future?

3) and these changes or movements presented to us from one chapter to the next do NOT occur WITHOUT a cause - no different than at anytime in the world, something causes something else to happen… (and in this case could it possibly be the Stone striking the feet that has broken the iron and the clay in 2:34 in pieces (as opposed to the Stone being treated as an end time destructive event?)

God has given us the 4 and only 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2. He then gives us the “actions or events” that He finds important and wants us to see. Those two actions are found in 2:34- the first coming of the Messiah, and then in 2:35 - His return.

That is the big picture He is giving us in chapter 2. The rest of Daniel will explain and expand on ALL those “actions and movements” BETWEEN 2:34 and 2:35.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

1. the collapse of rome and civil unrest
2. it does eliminate the futurist interpretation, absolutely eviscerates it in my opinion
3. it is one way of viewing it. you could say during the reign of these kings, meaning rome, God will setup His kingdom which He did at pentecost. small mustard seed that then grows to be in all the world as we see today.

 

[JustThinking]

I do not see Daniel saying that the iron and clay were 'separated' upon being 'smote' by the stone (Jesus) in verse 34; rather, the iron and clay feet - still a mixture of iron and clay [til the very end of its existence] - were broken into pieces. Nor do I see a significant gap between verse 34 and verse 35 - I see the "breaking into pieces" process continuing to consume the entire statue after it has begun at the feet. Furthermore, I see the iron-and-clay mixture 'divided kingdom' including both the iron and clay in the kingdom (i.e. both the iron and the clay are [together] part of the same kingdom) for the full span of time that is the feet-and-toes span of time of the kingdom. The feet and toes are all part of the same kingdom. The iron and clay are all part of the same kingdom.

I understand why you read Daniel 2:34–35 as one continuous end-time event. That is certainly the interpretation most of us were first taught. Rather than repeating the same arguments about the iron and clay, however, may I ask you to consider the structure of the chapter itself?

In verses 31–33, Daniel gives the dream sequence—the broad outline of the four kingdoms:

• the head of gold,
• the chest and arms of silver,
• the belly and thighs of bronze,
• the legs and feet of iron, with clay appearing in the feet.

Daniel moves through those kingdoms very quickly. He is not yet explaining their details. He is giving Nebuchadnezzar the large prophetic picture. Then, in only two verses, God reveals the two decisive actions of the Stone.

In verse 34, the Stone comes and strikes the feet.​

​

In verse 35, the entire image is finally crushed, removed like chaff, and the Stone becomes a great mountain filling the whole earth.​

Could these two verses be giving us the two great appearances of Christ within the broad dream sequence—His first coming and His return? That would place the Messiah exactly where we should expect Him in Daniel’s timeline. He comes during the fourth kingdom, when Rome rules over Judea and Israel is awaiting Messiah the Prince. At His first coming, He does not destroy Rome or remove every earthly kingdom. But His coming does strike the point where the iron and clay are found together and begins a series of enormous changes within both Israel and the Roman world. Then verse 35 carries us to the final result: all earthly dominion is removed and the kingdom of God fills the earth.

The importance of this distinction becomes clearer when Daniel begins the interpretation in verses 36–45. Those verses are not a chronological continuation after verse 35. They circle back and explain what occurs within the earlier dream sequence.

That is the pattern already established in the chapter:

• first, the dream;
• then, the interpretation of the dream.

The interpretation does not begin after the dream’s final event in time. It returns to the beginning and explains the kingdoms and the events already shown. That means verses 40–45 will be explaining what develops within the fourth kingdom after the Stone’s first impact, rather than describing conditions that somehow continue after the entire image has already been destroyed.

This raises an important question.

If verse 34 and verse 35 are both the same final destruction, what causes the developments described within the fourth kingdom in verses 41–45?

Why does the kingdom become divided?​

​

Why are iron and clay still present?​

​

Why do they mingle but fail to adhere?​

​

Why does Daniel spend several verses describing changes within the feet and toes if the Stone has already reduced the entire statue to dust?​

Those details make sense only if verse 34 begins a process and verse 35 reveals its final completion.

The Stone’s first coming produces the decisive spiritual division. Israel must respond to its Messiah. Some receive Him; others reject Him. The gospel then moves outward through the Roman world, producing changes that will unfold across the following centuries. The Stone’s return brings the final destruction of every earthly kingdom.

This also helps explain why Daniel’s symbols continue to develop in later chapters. In Daniel 2, the fourth kingdom has feet and toes. In Daniel 7, the same fourth kingdom is shown with ten horns—powers that have now emerged and become visible.

What caused the prophecy to move from hidden toes within the feet to visible horns exercising authority?​

If verse 34 is only an end-time destruction, then it cannot explain any historical or spiritual developments within the fourth kingdom, because nothing would remain afterward to develop.

But if verse 34 represents Christ’s first coming, then cause and effect begin to appear:

• the Messiah comes during the fourth kingdom;
• His coming divides His covenant people;
• His kingdom begins without human hands;
• the gospel enters the Roman world;
• the fourth kingdom undergoes major internal changes;
• the toes later appear as horns;
• and powers arise that affect God’s people, truth, law, worship, and sanctuary.

Daniel is not merely recording changes in political governments. He is revealing what happens to God’s people and to the Gentile world because the Messiah has come. That is why Daniel 2 could not move through the entire timeline from Babylon to the end of history without clearly presenting Christ’s first coming, the cross, the resurrection, and the beginning of His kingdom. Those are not minor events to be omitted from the prophecy. They are the central events of God’s plan of salvation.

So perhaps the question is not simply whether verses 34 and 35 can be read as one end-time event. The larger question is this:

Where does Daniel 2 place the first coming of the Messiah, and what event causes the many changes later described within the fourth kingdom?​

To me, verse 34 provides that cause. Verse 35 reveals the final result.

 

[JustThinking]

i think the 10toes/horns come from the 4th kingdom. if thats what ur asking. so i guess those nation did exist before the fall of rome, just as underneath rome

Thank you for your response... and if we ever get to chapter 7 you will clearly see how important this timeline becomes...

 

[JustThinking]

Thanks. Sorry I missed that.

Is the mountain the same as Mount Zion/Sion?

Examples:




Thanks.

No, the mountain within Daniel 2 represents the church that began with a small group of Jewish followers after Pentecost and spread all over the world.

Please keep in mind that God may use a symbol in one book or in one chapter that does not have to mean the same thing in the earlier verse... Here, He has arrived, gone to the cross, been resurrected and send the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Of course, none of this could happen without His first coming and that is why God had Daniel record His first coming within the 4th kingdom when His people and His city were completly restored back from Babylon. He could not arrive until they were restored and everythin was ready for His coming. Symbolically, God is showing us His people (clay) now fully restored but still held captive within the iron kingdom of Rome (symbolically within the feet). But rather that come to physicaly destroy Rome, as all the Jewish people had expected of Him when He arrived, He came not to destroy but to divide. That striking of the Stone would divide His people into those who would accept Him and go out into the world and start His church verses all the Pharisees, etc., people who would reject Him.

 

[JustThinking]

1. the collapse of rome and civil unrest
2. it does eliminate the futurist interpretation, absolutely eviscerates it in my opinion
3. it is one way of viewing it. you could say during the reign of these kings, meaning rome, God will setup His kingdom which He did at pentecost. small mustard seed that then grows to be in all the world as we see today.

If you are referring to verse 2:44 (and again, we have not discussed these "interpretation sequence verses" - 36 to 45), then yes. Please find below a copy of the narrative for verse 2:44 only within the Daniel commentary. Obviously, there is so much more that could be given for the verses leading up to verse 44 but this might be interesting for your consideration.


Part 1 of 2

After describing the divided condition of the fourth kingdom and the failure of iron and clay to adhere, Daniel now lifts the reader’s eyes to what the statue was ultimately built to reveal. Verses 41–43 explain the instability of Rome’s final phase; verse 44 reveals heaven’s answer to it. The prophecy moves from the brittleness of human kingdoms to the certainty of God’s kingdom—established not by political force, but by divine action. This is the interpretation-sequence counterpart to the Stone and mountain in the dream: the moment when God confirms that the kingdoms of men are temporary, but His kingdom will be eternal.

Verse 44 shifts focus from the symbolism of the fourth kingdom to the prophecy of God's eternal kingdom. It consists of four significant phrases:

44a: In the days of these kings.​

​

44b: The God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed.​

​

44c: And the kingdom shall not be left to other people.​

​

44d: It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever​

44a: “In the days of these kings”

This phrase does more than set a vague backdrop; it establishes a prophetic boundary. The “kings” are not random rulers, but the kings represented by the statue itself—Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. In other words, God’s redemptive plan, including the establishment of His kingdom, unfolds entirely within the framework of these four world powers. This is the blueprint Daniel unfolds throughout his book. The later visions do not expand the statue into a fifth empire; they deepen the same fourfold structure. Chapter 7’s beasts, chapter 8’s ram and goat, the seventy weeks of chapter 9, and the long conflict of chapter 11 all operate within this boundary.

This is why Daniel 2 leaves no room for a fifth earthly empire beyond Rome. Instead, God intervenes directly while the fourth kingdom is still in place. That intervention is Christ Himself. Jesus was born, lived, died, and rose again under Pagan Rome. The Stone “cut without hands” struck the image while it still stood, and it did not cause its annihilation. Christ even announced this fulfillment in the language of divine timing: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15). Daniel 2:44a therefore anchors the arrival of God’s kingdom inside history, not outside it. It did not wait for Rome’s collapse, nor for a later empire to arise. It came exactly when Daniel said it would—in the days of these kings. And once that boundary is understood, the rest of Daniel’s prophetic structure becomes far easier to read with consistency.

This phrase does more than establish a vague prophetic setting—it defines the boundary and limits of the prophecy’s timeline. “These kings” refers not merely to the ten toes or the rulers of the divided Roman Empire, but to the rulers throughout the entire span of the four kingdoms revealed in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

By saying “in the days of these kings,” Daniel is revealing a profound truth—God’s entire redemptive plan, including the establishment of His kingdom, will unfold within the framework of these four world powers.

This is God’s blueprint. Every vision that follows in the book of Daniel—chapter 7 with the four beasts, chapter 8 with the ram and goat, and even the seventy weeks in chapter 9—operates within the same prophetic boundary. No fifth worldly kingdom arises after Rome. Rather, it is within the time of Rome—specifically during the fourth kingdom’s reign—that God intervenes directly and decisively.

That intervention is the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who was born, lived, died, and rose again under the rule of pagan Rome. The stone cut without hands strikes the image during the lifetime of the fourth kingdom, not after its fall. This confirms that the kingdom of God was inaugurated not in some distant future age, but in the very days when these kings ruled. Jesus Himself proclaimed, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15).

Thus, Daniel 2:44a sets a prophetic limit on the rise of Christ’s kingdom. It was not delayed until after Rome’s collapse, nor reserved for some later earthly empire. It came exactly when Daniel said it would: during the fourth kingdom, while the kings of the image still ruled. And this framework ensures that all other biblical prophecies—whether in Daniel, Revelation, or the Gospels—must operate within the divine timeline established here.

This phrase anchors the fulfillment of God’s promise to a precise time—during the lifespan of the fourth kingdom. The “kings” here are not new rulers of a different empire but represent the fragmented authorities within the divided fourth kingdom described in verses 41–43. These include both the iron strength of Rome and the clay elements that were never fully integrated—symbolizing both political powers and religious entities.

The prophecy does not await the rise of a fifth kingdom in human succession. Instead, it is while these human rulers still reign, during the era of the fourth kingdom’s divided state, that God Himself acts.

The phrase aligns perfectly with the moment of the Stone's arrival in verse 34, which struck the image at its feet—not its head, chest, or thighs.

This detail confirms that the Messiah’s first coming and the establishment of His kingdom occur not after the fourth kingdom has ended, but during its divided state. Christ was born under Roman rule, crucified under a Roman governor, and resurrected while Rome still held global dominion. The stone struck during the lifetime of these kings. The foundation of God's eternal kingdom was laid precisely when the vision foretold it would be.

44b: “The God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed”

This is the great contrast at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar’s vision. Every previous kingdom was raised by human hands—marked by conquest, decline, and eventual collapse. But this kingdom is established by the God of heaven Himself. It is not born of political ambition, military dominance, or dynastic succession. It is spiritual in origin, inaugurated in the coming of Christ, who declared: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17).

Unlike the fragile clay or the brute iron, this kingdom is unshakable. It cannot decay, it cannot be overthrown, and it cannot be passed down like an earthly throne. Human institutions may corrupt themselves, misuse authority, or imitate the kingdom’s name—but the kingdom God establishes cannot be corrupted at its source, because it is rooted not in earthly power but in divine authority and eternal truth. The Messiah’s kingdom—God’s kingdom—does not rise and fall with the tides of history. It endures, and it will endure, until every other kingdom has passed away.

This is the central miracle and contrast of the entire vision. Whereas all previous kingdoms were built by men and marked by decline, division, and destruction, this kingdom is established by God Himself. It is not a political structure built by rebellion or conquest; it is a spiritual reality inaugurated by the arrival of Christ, who proclaimed, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:1

Unlike the fragile clay or the brute iron, this kingdom is unshakable. It is not subject to decay or corruption, nor can it be passed on through dynastic succession. It does not rise and fall according to human ambition. The Messiah’s kingdom—God’s kingdom—is indestructible, because it is not rooted in earthly politics, but in divine authority and eternal truth.

 

[WayneNSO]

That was me! And I was lying!!!!!!!

It cant be you - I heard it said by a retired USA Marine turned preacher - with a Southern accent and looked like he was 160 years old

 

[JustThinking]

1. the collapse of rome and civil unrest
2. it does eliminate the futurist interpretation, absolutely eviscerates it in my opinion
3. it is one way of viewing it. you could say during the reign of these kings, meaning rome, God will setup His kingdom which He did at pentecost. small mustard seed that then grows to be in all the world as we see today.

Part 2 of 2

44c: “And the kingdom shall not be left to other people”

This phrase makes an enduring declaration: God’s kingdom, once established by the Messiah, will never be transferred the way earthly dominions are transferred. No pope, council, empire, or denomination ever becomes the owner of Christ’s kingdom.

Human empires pass from one people to another—Babylon to Medo-Persia, Medo-Persia to Greece, Greece to Rome. But the kingdom God sets up is not an inheritance that changes hands. It remains under divine authority alone.

God first entrusted covenant light to Israel, calling them to be a witness to the nations. Though they often fell short, God did not abandon His plan. In Christ, He fulfilled it—establishing a kingdom that cannot be seized, redefined, or handed over as property. And after the cross, this kingdom was not “left” to men as rulers. It was carried forward by the Holy Spirit.

This is the meaning of Daniel’s statement. The kingdom is not entrusted to a human hierarchy as though salvation flows through an institution’s authority. Churches may claim succession, and systems may claim exclusive power to govern Christ’s reign on earth, but Daniel’s prophecy places the kingdom’s continuity elsewhere: in God Himself. Jesus said, “When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). Yes, the apostles founded churches. Yes, they preached and taught. But they did not rule. They did not inherit the kingdom.

This verse therefore draws a bright line between Christ’s kingdom and every human attempt to possess it. Human institutions rise, fracture, and sometimes corrupt themselves. But the kingdom of God remains untouched, because it has not been—and never will be—left to other people. It belongs to Christ, it is sustained by the Spirit, and it will endure in righteousness until the King returns in glory.

This phrase carries profound implications. God is making a bold and eternal declaration: His kingdom, once established by the Messiah, will never be inherited, transferred, or handed over to any other people, nation, or religious system. It is not a possession to be passed down. It is a divine kingdom—and it remains under divine control.

Historically, God chose Abraham and through him formed a covenant people—Israel. Their calling was clear: to be priests to the world, to bring knowledge of the one true God to the nations. But instead of fulfilling that mission, Israel often kept the truth of God to themselves, separated from the world they were meant to reach. Yet even then, God did not abandon His plan.

He fulfilled it through His Son, Jesus Christ, and after the cross, the responsibility of guiding and expanding this spiritual kingdom was given not to another group of people, but to the Holy Spirit. This is the heart of Daniel 2:44c.

“The kingdom shall not be left to other people”—because it has been entrusted to the Spirit of God.

The Catholic Church may claim to be the inheritor of Christ’s kingdom, teaching that salvation flows through its hierarchy and that its priests serve as mediators between God and man. But such claims are directly contradicted by the declaration of Daniel 2:44c. God’s kingdom was never left to any institutional church. It was never handed over to men—not even to the apostles in a legal sense.

Yes, the apostles founded churches. Yes, they preached and taught. But they did not rule. They did not inherit the kingdom. They were led by the Spirit—and it is the Spirit who was given full authority to carry forward the kingdom Christ established. Jesus said:

“When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth… for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.” (John 16:13)

This divine guidance ensures that the kingdom remains uncorrupted. The Holy Spirit does not change doctrines to suit culture. He does not deviate from the testimony of Jesus. He does not teach apart from the Word. He is the perfect custodian—not of a denomination, but of a living, spiritual kingdom made up of those who hear and follow the voice of the Shepherd.

So while human churches have risen and fallen, while doctrines have shifted, and while power has corrupted many who claimed to speak for God, the truth of Daniel 2:44c stands unshaken: God’s kingdom has not been—and never will be—left to other people. It belongs to the Messiah. It is administered by the Holy Spirit. And it will be preserved in righteousness until the day it is revealed in full glory at the return of the King.


44d: “It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever”

This is the climactic act in God’s redemptive plan. Daniel 2:44d points directly back to verse 35, where the entire image—iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold—is crushed together and swept away like chaff, leaving no trace behind. Here history reaches its conclusion: the end of every earthly dominion, and the open, permanent reign of Christ.

Earlier, in verse 34, the Stone “cut without hands” struck the feet—symbolizing Christ’s first coming. That strike did not immediately annihilate the statue. It fractured the foundation of the fourth kingdom, separating iron and clay and initiating the kingdom of God within history through the Gospel.

The kingdom was inaugurated quietly, not through conquest, but through the calling out of a people. But in verse 44d, the prophecy moves from inauguration to consummation. This is not gradual reform, cultural influence, or institutional change. It is decisive judgment. The kingdom God establishes will ultimately break in pieces and consume every kingdom represented in the image:

Babylon — the golden head of human glory and false worship.​

​

Medo-Persia — the silver chest of decree and imposed law.​

​

Greece — the bronze belly of conquest, reason, and human wisdom.​

​

Rome — the iron legs and feet of domination, continuing in both its pagan and papal phases.​

And even the clay—those who remained hardened, who rejected the Spirit of Christ, and who clung to the world’s kingdoms rather than to the Stone—will not survive the final winnowing. When the Stone returns, the statue will not be fractured again. It will be pulverized. And what remains will not be another empire, another successor, or another mixture. Only one kingdom will stand—unshakable and eternal. One Rock. One King.

Verse 44 Takeaway

Daniel 2:44 is the divine conclusion to the entire statue vision. It reveals that God’s kingdom is not an afterthought placed outside history, but a kingdom established within the four-kingdom framework— “in the days of these kings.” It is set up by the God of heaven, not by human hands, and therefore it cannot be transferred, inherited, or owned by any earthly institution. The kingdom is inaugurated at the Messiah’s first coming, when the Stone strikes the feet and begins His separating work within the fourth kingdom. Yet it is consummated at His return, when that same kingdom breaks in pieces and consumes every earthly dominion represented in the image. Verse 45 now seals this interpretation by returning to the Stone itself—its origin, its authority, and the certainty that what God has shown will come to pass.

 

[JustThinking]

It cant be you - I heard it said by a retired USA Marine turned preacher - with a Southern accent and looked like he was 160 years old

I told you I was lying!

 

[JustThinking]

1. the collapse of rome and civil unrest
2. it does eliminate the futurist interpretation, absolutely eviscerates it in my opinion
3. it is one way of viewing it. you could say during the reign of these kings, meaning rome, God will setup His kingdom which He did at pentecost. small mustard seed that then grows to be in all the world as we see today.

Just wanted to mention that the two parts of the narrative that were copied below for verse 2:44 were corrupted.... I seem to have messed up when copying them to this forum... but I am sure you get the meaning within it.... sorry.

 

[JustThinking]

Just wanted to check to see if anyone is still interested in addressing the issues that seem to be still open in chapter 2:

1) identity of clay,

2) 2:34 represents the first coming of Jesus

3) other ????

If there is no further interest ... no problem at all.

 

[cv5]

Thank you. And yes, it is very important that folks will recognize this… the 10 toes were within the iron feet in chapter 2.

And although we have not moved on to chapter 7 yet, they will be now referred to as 10 horns (powers) that are COMING OUT “ of that same 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

So there will be at few two critical questions to answer:

1) what was the reason / cause for the 10 toes to “come out” of the 4th beast when they were WITHIN the 4th beast in chapter two, and,

2) since they “came out” (now visible) in early part of chapter 7 AND existed BEFORE the destruction of the 4th beast in 476AD, does that eliminate them from being a 10 member nation or power that comes in the future?

3) and these changes or movements presented to us from one chapter to the next do NOT occur WITHOUT a cause - no different than at anytime in the world, something causes something else to happen… (and in this case could it possibly be the Stone striking the feet that has broken the iron and the clay in 2:34 in pieces (as opposed to the Stone being treated as an end time destructive event?)

God has given us the 4 and only 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2. He then gives us the “actions or events” that He finds important and wants us to see. Those two actions are found in 2:34- the first coming of the Messiah, and then in 2:35 - His return.

That is the big picture He is giving us in chapter 2. The rest of Daniel will explain and expand on ALL those “actions and movements” BETWEEN 2:34 and 2:35.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

"God has given us the 4 and only 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2."

Because of course those are the 4 gentile nations that constitute the "times of the gentiles".

Israel lost their sovereignty due to transgressing the Mosaic covenant and were essentially vassals all the way to 70AD and then the final end in 132AD.

 

[cv5]

Of course the futurist dispensationalist premillennialist are correct.....

Yes, the **Great Red Dragon (Satan)** in Revelation 12:3 possesses **both** the seven heads (with seven crowns) *and* the ten horns simultaneously.

From an expository standpoint, this highlights a crucial theological distinction between **who is pulling the strings** (the Dragon) and **who executes the final geopolitical system** (the Beast):

### 1. The Dragon's Permanent Blueprint
Satan is the ultimate architect of human rebellion against God from Eden onward. Therefore, the Dragon’s anatomical description is a **comprehensive composite** of his entire historical and future apparatus:

* **The 7 Heads & 7 Crowns:** Represent his total historical dominion through every major empire that has ever opposed God's purposes (from ancient roots up to Rome and its final form).

* **The 10 Horns:** Represent the fact that **the final ten-nation end-time confederacy has always been part of his blueprint.** Even before those ten kings physically manifest on earth in history, the blueprint, design, and ultimate backing of that final global power structure originate with Satan.

### 2. The Dragon vs. The Beast
* **The Dragon (Revelation 12:3):** Represents the *hidden spiritual source* of power behind all anti-God government. He is portrayed with the full suite—all seven heads of history and all ten horns of the future—because he is the master puppeteer behind the entire timeline of the Times of the Gentiles.

* **The Beast (Revelation 13:1):** Represents the *manifest political system on earth*. When the Beast rises out of the sea, the focus narrows to the active, operational end-time phase. That is why the crowns shift from the historical heads to the ten active horns, showing that the final stage of his global empire has finally materialized on the world stage.

In short, the Dragon has the ten horns because **he owns the final end-time scheme from its inception**, even if those ten kings haven't yet taken their thrones in human history when the dragon first
appears.

 

[cv5]

Just wanted to check to see if anyone is still interested in addressing the issues that seem to be still open in chapter 2:

1) identity of clay,

2) 2:34 represents the first coming of Jesus

3) other ????

If there is no further interest ... no problem at all.

"2) 2:34 represents the first coming of Jesus"

Of course not.

[Dan 2:34-35 KJV] 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The Result of the Impact: Total Annihilation vs. Historical Coexistence

The Text: When the stone strikes the image, the iron, clay, brass, silver, and gold are "broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them" (Daniel 2:35).

The Commentators' Proof:
Andy Woods and Arnold Fruchtenbaum point out the undeniable historical reality: When Jesus Christ arrived at His First Advent, none of the previous empires were annihilated, nor did human earthly governments vanish. Rome continued its absolute imperial dominance for centuries after the crucifixion. In fact, Jewish sovereignty was entirely eliminated, not restored.

At the Second Coming, however, the geopolitical systems of man are completely obliterated, and the Stone instantly "became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth"—signifying the literal, global establishment of the Messianic Kingdom. Jesus did not set up a global physical kingdom that crushed Rome in 30 AD; He inaugurated a spiritual kingdom in the hearts of believers while the Roman Empire marched on.

 

[cv5]

And (BTW) - this is the reason why a 'pre-trib' rapture is literally impossible - there can be no 'pre-trib' anything - because, we are already beyond/past the beginning of it - nothing else can be previous to it...

No, but rather the pre trib rapture is inevitable. Yes, the futurist dispensationalist premillennialist are undoubtedly correct.

You see, in fact it is THE STEP of the Hebrew betrothal wedding protocol Jesus is speaking to here:

[Jhn 14:2-3 KJV]
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

### 1. The Historical Background: The Two-Part Jewish Wedding
Ancient Jewish marriage customs consisted of two distinct phases separated by an interval of time (typically around twelve months):

1. **Kiddushin (The Betrothal/Contract):** The groom left his father's house, traveled to the bride's home, paid the *mohar* (purchase price), and established a blood-sealed covenant. From that moment, the bride was legally bound and sanctified (set apart) as a wife, though they did not yet live together.

2. **Nissuin (The Fetching/Marriage Proper):** After the separation period, the groom would return to the bride’s home unexpectedly—usually at night—to snatch her and her attendants away to his father's house, where the wedding chamber (*huppah*) and the seven-day feast awaited.

### 2. Proof Points in John 14:2–3
When Jesus tells His disciples, *"In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself,"* He is intentionally invoking this exact cultural sequence:

* **The Departure and the Price Paid:** Just as the groom left his father's house to secure his bride, Jesus left heaven (His Father's house) to earth to purchase His bride (the Church) with the ultimate price—His own blood, instituted at the Last Supper moments before this discourse via the New Covenant cup (1 Corinthians 11:25).

* **The Construction Period ("I Go to Prepare a Place"):** Following *Kiddushin*, the Jewish groom returned to his father's house and spent months building an addition or a bridal chamber (*chagall/room*) onto the family compound (*insula*) for his bride. Commentators emphasize that Jesus' declaration—*"I go to prepare a place for you"*—directly mirrors this structural task during the current separation period (the Church Age).

* **The Sudden Return (*Nissuin* / The *Harpazo*):** The groom's return to fetch his bride was marked by a sudden arrival, often preceded by a shout in the night. As Fruchtenbaum and Showers outline, this cultural return maps directly onto 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, where the Lord Himself descends from heaven with a **"shout"** and the **"voice of the archangel"** to snatch away (*harpazo*) His bride to meet Him in the air.

* **"Receive You Unto Myself" (*Paralambano*):** The specific Greek term used in John 14:3 for "receive you unto myself" (*paralambano*) is the exact technical term used in Jewish wedding literature for the groom taking the bride to himself to bring her back to his father's house.

### 3. The Parallel Conclusion: The Seven-Year Separation
To complete the typological picture highlighted by these commentators:
* In the ancient custom, once the groom snatched the bride away to his father's house, they entered the *huppah* (bridal chamber) where they remained hidden for **seven days** of feasting while tribulation or unbridled chaos occurred outside.
* In the prophetic timeline, this corresponds to the **seven-year Tribulation** on earth while the Church (the Bride) remains hidden and sheltered in heaven before returning openly with the Groom at the
Second Coming.

 

[cv5]

And (BTW) - this is the reason why a 'pre-trib' rapture is literally impossible - there can be no 'pre-trib' anything - because, we are already beyond/past the beginning of it - nothing else can be previous to it...

[2Ti 2:18 KJV] 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Yes Gary, this passage proves the
pre-trib nissuin aka harpazo aka rapture where the Groom takes His Bride to the huppah.

And I know (surely know) that no matter how many ways I prove it so, and no matter how many times, you simply will not "get it".

I say this with confidence because your track record in this regard has been thus far impressively flawless.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

For both the full preterists and pre-tribbers, what do you think of the mark of the beast? How would you react if it becomes imposed in your lifetime? The covid vaccination is a prototype of the mark of the beast. Did you take it?

 

[HeIsHere]

For both the full preterists and pre-tribbers, what do you think of the mark of the beast? How would you react if it becomes imposed in your lifetime? The covid vaccination is a prototype of the mark of the beast. Did you take it?

Speculation is really not a good way to approach scripture.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Speculation is really not a good way to approach scripture.

Yeah, you should take your own advice. But no worries. I already know you don't believe a lot of what the Bible simply says. I just want to know what other full preterists and pre-tribbers think.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah, you should take your own advice. But no worries. I already know you don't believe a lot of what the Bible simply says. I just want to know what other full preterists and pre-tribbers think.

Right, read my signature I actually do follow the words of Christ Jesus.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Right, read my signature I actually do follow the words of Christ Jesus.

LOL, okay Karen. If you say so!