The Bible repeatedly refers to the Torah as being God's way, such as with Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Psalm 119:1-3, an many others.It's just so strange. They act like God doesn't see that what they believe doesn't line up with His ways and they will not face consequences for it.
Knowing God.
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Just because a few moral commands such as Lev. 19:18 are reaffirmed by Christ's command in John 13:34-35 does not mean souls must obey the entire Torah to be saved. Many of the Mosaic laws were preceded by the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1754).
The NC replaces the OC per Jer. 31:31-34, because Jesus fulfilled the reason the Torah was given, which was to prepare the way for the NC it foreshadowed. Once the NC was revealed, the OC had fulfilled its purpose and was superseded by what was greater (John 3:30).
Now sin is defined for souls by the NT/Christ, and Christians cooperate with the loving HS/GW indwelling their hearts because they are saved rather than obey words on paper scrolls in order to be saved.
You think it is astute to stick with the OC/Law to your own condemnation per Paul in Galatians that you contradict/kick against, which makes you a Judaizer.
Is there no true Messianic Jew on CC who will witness to Soy?
Jesus sums all the laws God wants us to follow in two laws:
- Love God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."
- Love Neighbor: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Do you not understand what Lord Jesus was saying? I do. He was saying that no one qualifies to enter God's Kingdom by their own righteousness. That's why there is the New Covenant in His blood. The New Covenant is grace, which is in opposition to Law. (John 1:17, Ephesians 2:5).
The new law is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. If you do not understand that, you need to study and pray until you do.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." Galatians 2:19. What laws apply to dead people?
But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6.
"All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Galatians 3: 1-12
When you follow the law, you are not living by faith. That means that you are not pleasing God.
"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:23-25
The law does not save us and neither does it make us righteous. "Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18
"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:14
I justify everything I've said according to God's word. That you do not understand is your problem, not mine. I'd offer to help you but your arrogance makes you unteachable.
When will you stop denying God's revealed word and accept the truth? From what I've read from you, it will be on your judgement day. You do not know the true gospel. You do not know that you are crucified with Christ and raised again to new life. If you imagine that Christianity is a set of rules to follow, you are deluded. Don't be too bothered. You are not alone in that regards.
I am concerned for those whose default attitude is to follow the law religiously. God is going to ask you why you disobeyed His written word that says by the works of the law, no one will be justified.
How can God make it clearer? Do you even know what grace is? I can assure you that if you are living by law, you cannot be living by grace. The two are entirely incompatible.
New Covenant, New Life, New Law. It's the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Sure, obedience is necessary, but not to a written code of conduct that is for the spiritually dead. The law kills. The Spirit gives life.
Legalists have turned the Law of Moses into an idol. Those who are born again do not need the law to tell them what to do. The sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God leads us in the way that we should go.
The law does not even apply to gentiles. God did not send Moses to preach law to Pharaoh. When God gave the Law, he said, "Hear O Israel............."
I will just comment on this to prove you always revert to the 613 ""the 613 laws of the Torah were how his audience knew what sin is"
did Jesus teach this? the 613? or did he teach all of the ten commandments, explaining that Love was the foundation of the commandments and the rest of the law. many many of the Law of Moses pointed to Christ in different way, but like i said do we need to sacrifice animals to atone for sin ? Many of these are done with since Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world, all these ceremonies are no longer required.
all the rest of the law of Moses that was added because the israelites disobeyed were derived from the ten commandments called the Covenant also that people refer as the Moral law, the rest of it is different and served a purpose at that time for slaves just freed from the Egyptians who had no instructions, bowed before idols ext... the law of Moses was necessary then but not today, what is still applicable could be kept but just following the "Moral law, the covenant Ten Commandments is what is required for a gentile.
Very simply, First to Love GOD with all our strength mind and heart and to Love one another.
things have changed since Jesus was rejected bu the Jews, given away bu them to be scourges horribly and to hang on a cross, by the Romans until death. and Judas who sold him for 30 pieces of silver. Yes the truth is in the words spoken by GOD the O.T was to prepare the way for Christ, and to confirm without a doubt that HE IS the Messiah, the son of God, one with God.
ill give you examples of the Law of Moses that you will agree with me cannot should not be followed today;
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, that will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and, though they chasten him, will not hearken unto them; then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, ASV)
Jesus never instructed His disciples or parents to carry out this civil penalty. Instead, He taught mercy, repentance, and restoration. yes things change! : "And he arose, and came to his father. But while he was yet afar off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. " (Luke 15:20, ASV) do you see a difference???
They say unto him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery. (Matthew 19:7-9, ASV)
Jesus explains that Moses permitted divorce because of hardened hearts, but points back to God's original intention.
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.(Exodus 21:24-25, ASV)
Jesus teaches His disciples not to seek personal revenge.; "Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, Resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-39, ASV)
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10, ASV)
Jesus responded differently; And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more. (John 8:11, ASV)
Notice that Jesus did not approve of adultery. He called her to repentance, but He did not carry out the civil punishment.
About he Law regulated vows made in God's name. Jesus taught something greater.Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not swear falsely, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God; nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37, ASV)
Jesus expanded what many had come to believe.Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy: but I say unto you, Love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you; that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust. (Matthew 5:43-45, ASV)
All these examples show that Jesus did not abolish God's moral commandments. Rather, He revealed their true meaning and often replaced the civil penalties and concessions that were part of the Law of Moses for the nation of Israel with the higher standard of the Kingdom of God: repentance, mercy, forgiveness, love, and righteousness from the heart. This is exactly what He was doing throughout the Sermon on the Mount when He repeatedly said, "Ye have heard... but I say unto you."
if jesus who is one with GOD says this then this is what we must DO!
The reason why the commandments to love God and our neighbor are the greatest two commandments is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which is why Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on them. If someone thought that they just needed to love God and their neighbor, so they did not to to refrain from committing idolatry or favoritism, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and their neighbor and the same is true about everything else commanded in the Torah. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Torah because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.Jesus sums all the laws God wants us to follow in two laws:
Jesus stated that "all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37–40).
- Love God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."
- Love Neighbor: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
you quoted GAl, Romans, twisted James completely , you really do not understand scripture it is CLOSED off to you, you are Blind !
Still no details of the new laws instead I got a platitude : "The new law is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. If you do not understand that, you need to study and pray until you do." still no contents only vague concepts, if you want to Know GOD , Listen to the words of Jesus , God said so twice with his own voice thae was herd by many witnesses in the N.T. GOD said Listen to HIM! until you do your blindness will remain.
then Jesus was a legalist when he said clearly" ...If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17" these we need to keep absolutely without a doubt because Jesus said so, do you believe Jesus? in Matthew 19:16-19. i think it was crystal clear. the ten commandments many consider the law and mix it with the law of Moses but it is distinct the proof is in the ARK of the Covenant.
What Paul explicitly taught in Rom. 3:21-5:11 is that anyone may be justified/saved via faith, which may be referred to as positional righteousness because of being IN Christ (Eph. 1:3-14)/elect/saved/redeemed. etc.
What Paul also explicitly taught is that those who have saving faith will cooperate with God's HS/manifest godly behavior (Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:16-25, etc.) is that practical righteousness or becoming loving like Christ is the goal/end of saving faith/sanctification (Eph. 3:16-19, 4:11-24, Phil. 3:12-21). Thus the importance of perseverance in saving faith is taught in sixteen passages of Scripture.
Implication? TULIP is baloney!
I do not always refer to the 613 laws and there are many instances where I have not, but I said that because I was answering a question that you specifically asked me about the 613 laws.
Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits and sin is the transgression of any of the 613 laws because they were given in order to teach us how to embody God's character traits, so when Jesus said that he came to call sinners to repentance, that includes transgressing any of the 613 laws. The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of all of the 613 laws is to teach us how to love different aspects of God's character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. Moreover, all of the 613 laws are in regard to how to love our neighbor and/or God.
Jesus taught obedience to more than just the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5 alone. God's Word points to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and everything in it was given in order to teach us about who he is. The sacrificial system has always pointed towards Christ and they did not cease to point towards Christ and the only way that we should cease to point to Christ would be if what God's laws teach us about him were to cease to be true. The only way that we should cease to follow God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy would be if He were to cease to be holy.
The Bible never refers to the Ten Commandments as the Moral Law, it never states that we can be acting morally while disobeying the rest of God's laws, and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. God's character traits are eternal, so His instructions for how to know Him through embodying them are not temporary. Do you consider the laws against sexual misconduct to be moral laws? What about the greatest two commandments? What about the law against kidnapping? What objective standard to you use to determine which of the other laws are moral laws?
In Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially be being zealous for teaching the Torah.
Nothing about the coming or rejection of Christ had any bearing on the fact that God's righteousness and righteous laws are eternal.
There is no record of anyone being executed in accordance with that law. I'd recommend looking up all the hoops that someone had to jump through in order to qualify for being executed by that law within Judaism. Mercy, repentance, and restoration are all in accordance with the OT, so that is not a difference.
Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the OT hundreds of times in order to support their position, so it doesn't work to interpret them as speaking against following what they considered to be an authoritative source. For example, Jesus quoted three times form Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed God as still being an authoritative source and you should have major problems with you interpreting Jesus as speaking against living by what God spoke in Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy 12:32, it is a sin to add to or subtract form the Torah, and in Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah.
In Matthew 19:3, Jesus was asked a question about whether a man was permitted to divorce his wife for any reason, so it was divorce for frivolous reasons that was not the case from the beginning. Jesus should not be interpreted as being in disagreement with what God spoke in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in regard to divorce.
In Matthew 4, Jesus preceded a quote from what was written by saying "it is written...". but in Matthew 5, he preceded a quote from what the people had heard being said by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 12:32 by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. "An eye for an eye" is still a good guidelines for judges to help ensure fair sentencing that does not escalate out of proportion to the offense, but it was not intended to be used in personal situations to justify taking revenge into our own hands. In those situations we are instructed not to repay in kind (Proverbs 20:22, 24:29).
The Torah instructs for the man and the woman accused of adultery be brought before a judge to do an investigation, that no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses, and that the witness are to throw the first stone, so if Jesus had stoned her, then he would have sinned in violation of the Torah.
Leviticus 19:12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.
Someone who was focused on obeying the spirit of the law would understand that the intent of this law is that we should not swear falsely, whereas someone who was focused on obeying the letter of this law exactly as written would understand that we are free to swear falsely just as long as swear by something other than God's name, which is the issue that Jesus was addressing in Matthew 5:33-37.
For what it is worth, Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew translated Matthew 5:33-37 as specifically speaking against making false vows, which I think both the surrounding and broader context supports. God swore by Himself (Genesis 22:16-17, Hebrews 6:13, 7:21), Jesus swore under oath before the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:63), and Paul also made an oath to the Corinthian church (2 Corinthians 1:23), and made solemn appeals to God (Romans 1:9, Galatians 1:20, Philippians 1:8; 1 Corinthians 15:31, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, Revelation 10:5-6). God commanded His people to swear by His name in Deuteronomy 6:13 and 10:20, and we see many examples of this throughout the OT, such as 1 Kings 2:23 and 1 Samuel 20:3, so Jesus should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, especially because he upheld vows in Matthew 23:20-22, so he was speaking against making vows in general, but rather he was only speaking against false vows.
This was said in regard to Gentiles:
Jeremiah 12:16-17 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, ‘As the Lord lives,’ even as they taught my people to swear by Baal, then they shall be built up in the midst of my people. 17 But if any nation will not listen, then I will utterly pluck it up and destroy it, declares the Lord.”
While the Torah does instruct to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not instruct to hate our enemies, so again that is what Jesus was correcting. Loving our enemies is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverb 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22, so again Jesus was not teaching anything brand new.
Everything that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount is based on what was taught in the OT.
All of the 613 laws of the Torah are either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the rest of the 611 laws in the Torah. For example, if someone thought that they just needed to love God and their neighbor, so they didn't need to refrain from committing idolatry or favoritism, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor, and the same is true for the rest of the laws of the Torah. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the 611 laws in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Torah because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:4-7).Jesus sums all the laws God wants us to follow in two laws:
Jesus stated that "all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37–40).
- Love God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."
- Love Neighbor: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus was speaking about having a love that is full, mature, or complete where we don't just love those who love us but also love our enemies, not about having sinless obedience. There would be no point in telling people who have already sinned that they need to have sinless obedience.
We can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works or with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11, so it is not that we need to have faith instead of works, but rather we need to do works through faith in Christ rather than works done to earn our righteousness as a wage, and it is through that faith in Christ alone that we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as a wage. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses that refer to those who are in Christ such as Ephesians 1:1-14 are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Torah through faith, which is why we have positional/practical righteousness.
It is absurd to think that we can commit idolatry by taking the position that we should obey the command in the Law of Moses to refrain from committing idolatry. In 1 John 3:10, those do are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Torah are not born again regardless of whether or not they need to the Torah to tell them what to do. God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to embody God's character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to it. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from doing what He has revealed to be sin. God gave the Torah to Israel to make the knowledge of Him known to the nations in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel (Deuteronomy 4:5-8).
In Matt. 5:43-48 Jesus did not speak of the imperfect Torah's love for Jews, but of the perfect Holy Spirit's love for all humanity.
In Rom. 5:5 Paul did not speak of salvation via obeying 613 laws, but of the Holy Spirit loving through the saved.
Put your Torah in a museum and allow Christ's Spirit into your heart.
I did not say anything about the Torah's love just being for Jews. Loving our enemies is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22.
God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody God's character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to it (Romans 8:4-7).
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being doers of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not not being doers of it. It is contradictory for someone to want salvation from sin while not wanting to be a doer of the Torah.
All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalm 119:160). The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Torah.
The flaw in your faith seems to be failure to affirm foreshadowing. The Torah's purpose was to lead people to faith in Christ and filling with His Spirit, after which it should fade in significance or be superseded by the New Covenant (cf. John 3:30).
Otherwise the temptation is to revert to Judaism/pervert the Gospel, as you seem to do.