I have said it many times and I will say it again:
Dispensationalist for lack of a better term.
Futurist and premillennialist: much tighter and to the point.
The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8
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Dispensationalist for lack of a better term.
Futurist and premillennialist: much tighter and to the point.
That's not a definition. Here, let me help you out. Choose a number:
1) Dispensations as different rules or tests for mankind.
- God deals with people differently in different periods of history for salvation. Each dispensation has its own responsibilities or requirements. For example: before the Law, under the Law, and under grace.
- God has one unified plan for salvation, but He unfolds and administers that plan in different stages throughout history. The administrations change, but the way of salvation does not.
That was pagan Rome, it fulfilled its role when Constantine blended paganism with Christianity, changing the Holy Sabbath day of God to the “venerable day of the sun”. After that the Pope took over, a loathsome enterprise at best. That was when the anti-Christ appeared.
[Act 20:29 KJV] 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
From humble beginnings the “church” used the power of the state to persecute true Christians. Ther RCC is now a major power with a membership exceeding 1 billion.
[Dan 7:8 KJV] 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
[Dan 8:9 KJV] 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land].
Here is an indepth video that should will this topic:
I believe you, or another poster, previously mentioned that Scripture never directly says, “The clay represents Israel.” That is true. But biblical prophecy often does not explain every symbol in a single sentence. God frequently gives us symbols and expects us to interpret them by considering their timing, their Old Testament background, the other symbols surrounding them, and the larger purpose of the prophecy.
Daniel itself requires this kind of interpretation. The metals, beasts, horns, wings, and the Stone are all symbolic. Their meanings must be discovered from the context and from the way Scripture uses those images elsewhere. So the question is not simply whether Daniel directly says, “The clay is Israel.” The question is whether the biblical use of clay, the timing of its appearance, and its relationship to the Stone make Israel the most reasonable identification.
The word translated “clay” in Daniel 2:33 is the Aramaic word ḥăsaph. It can refer to clay, pottery, earthenware, or something made from clay. Therefore, I agree that we should not imagine only soft mud or clay beneath the iron. The material may also include the idea of pottery—clay that has been formed and may be broken. But that does not weaken the connection with Israel. In fact, the Old Testament repeatedly uses both moldable clay and hardened pottery as symbols of God’s covenant people.
In Jeremiah 18, God sends Jeremiah to the potter’s house. The vessel becomes marred, but the potter reshapes it according to his will. God then says:
“Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.”
There Israel is pictured as clay that can still be shaped by God.
In Jeremiah 19, however, the image changes. Jeremiah takes a hardened pottery vessel and breaks it as a sign of judgment:
“Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel.”
So Scripture can portray God’s people both as clay that remains responsive to the Potter and as pottery that has hardened and can be shattered. The fact that the clay in Daniel 2 can be broken therefore does not disprove the identification with Israel. That distinction may become especially important when the Stone strikes the feet.
Before the Stone arrives, the clay represents God’s covenant people as a whole, living under the authority of the iron kingdom of Rome. But when the Messiah comes, the people no longer remain spiritually undivided. They must respond to Him. Some accept Him as the Messiah. They remain like clay in the Potter’s hands—willing to be reshaped by God through Christ. These believers become the first Jewish disciples and apostles. They are then sent throughout the Roman world to proclaim the good news of the kingdom. Others reject Him. They remain attached to their pre-cross understanding and continue waiting for a Messiah who has already come. In this interpretation, they become like hardened pottery—still religious and still identifying themselves as God’s covenant people, but resistant to the One God has sent.
The Stone’s impact therefore does not merely break political governments. It creates a spiritual division within the clay itself. This reading also fits the larger message of Daniel. The book begins with God allowing His disobedient people to be carried into Babylonian captivity. But God does not abandon them. He creates a plan of restoration. Through the kingdoms that follow, He preserves His people, returns them to their land, restores Jerusalem, rebuilds the temple, and prepares everything necessary for the coming of the Messiah. The four kingdoms are therefore not the main story. They are the historical framework through which God carries His people from captivity to restoration.
By the time the prophecy reaches the feet of the fourth kingdom, Israel is again in Jerusalem. The city has been rebuilt. The temple is functioning. The priesthood, sacrifices, and festivals have been restored. The sixty-nine weeks—483 years—are approaching their fulfillment, and the people are awaiting Messiah the Prince. That is the precise point at which the clay appears within the image.
The clay is not shown within the gold, silver, or bronze, even though Jewish people certainly lived under Babylon, Persia, and Greece. Their physical presence within those kingdoms was not the reason for the symbol. The clay appears only when the work of restoration has reached its Messianic purpose.
One important element of the former temple had never been restored: the Ark of the Covenant. The golden-covered chest did not return to the second temple. Yet the Ark had represented the covenant presence, mercy, holiness, and glory of God among His people. In this interpretation, the final restoration of God’s presence would not come through the return of the old wooden chest. It would come through the Messiah Himself. Jesus would become the true meeting place between God and humanity. He would embody the presence of God, establish the covenant through His blood, and bring the mercy and reconciliation toward which the Ark had pointed.
This is why the timing of Daniel 2:34 is so important. The Stone arrives during the fourth kingdom and during the final week of the seventy-weeks prophecy. He comes to the restored people and restored city, fulfills His redemptive mission, and goes to the cross. At the cross, the decisive separation begins. The iron and clay are exposed as distinct. Rome remains the ruling Gentile power, while Israel remains God’s covenant people living under its control. But the clay itself is also divided according to its response to the Messiah. Those who accept Him become the believing remnant and carry the gospel into the Roman Empire. Those who reject Him continue in the old covenant forms while refusing the One to whom those forms pointed.
Thus, all of these symbols fit together:
God sends His people into captivity.
He restores them through the four-kingdom period.
The clay becomes visible when Israel has returned to Jerusalem and the Messiah is about to arrive.
The Stone strikes during the fourth kingdom.
The Stone strikes the feet of iron and clay…and broke them in pieces.
The Stone did not destroy the image, that would take place some 2000 years later in 2:35. There is so much history to take place after the cross until then.
2:34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
The coming of Christ divides His people according to their response to Him.
The believing remnant carries the gospel into the Gentile world.
The hardened portion continues waiting for the Messiah it has rejected.
I would not claim that the Aramaic word ḥăsaph by itself proves this entire interpretation. Nor does Daniel directly state every part of the symbolism. But biblical prophecy rarely works by giving us only explicit definitions. The meaning emerges when the symbols, timing, Old Testament background, and redemptive purpose are brought together. When all of those elements are considered, the clay as Israel is not a random guess. It becomes part of a coherent prophetic picture centered on the restoration of God’s people, the arrival of the Messiah, and the spiritual division created by His coming.
Then what evidence do you have that it's Israel because you can't use the reference of us being molded clay, if the reference in Daniel is hardened/pottery type based which Daniel describes as brittle (and I mean by symbolic reference, not trying to apply history as a forced evidence which doesn't tie in with scripture). Then are God's people brittle? Do you admit that your interpretation means Christ breaks his own people into dust then?
And please stop using AI because its making your argument illogical, convoluted and extremely wordy which is unnecessary.
Frankly I don't think either is entirely adequate. Throw them both into a bucket and mix them up and see what you get.
If the 1260 days in Rev 13 are years, what about the trampling of Jerusalem and the two witnesses who witness IN Jerusalem where their Lord was crucified for 1260 days. How can that be years and I remember Adventists teaching "where their Lord was crucified" and great city somehow isnt Jerusalem but Paris or something?
Any historicist here wants to explain all that?
AI? I will tell you that the above narrative is a composite of more than a few parts of the interpretations found within the chapter 2 commentary on Daniel. Now, I have attempted to provide you with ton of information during this long thread - and I can assure you that you will not find these or the so many other new interpretations of Daniel within the commentary on ANY site or in ANY commentary by ANY of today's or yesterday's scholarly papers.
I am sorry to say that I will no longer be discussing this or any other issue with you from now on. Good luck... Ignored
Here let me help you:
Might I suggest that you could.....(what is that word??).....Oh yes....."deduce"....my peculiar "flavor" of "dispensationalism" by reading the content of my many posts on the matter?
Then let your imagination run wild.
Thanks buddy....
Very nice comments. Well, it is clear that you are a member of the SDA church. And as you know, they are proud of their work on Daniel - absolutely the most amazing but complicated book in the Bible.
I don’t know of another organization or denomination that has focused so much of their time and effort on Daniel. And what they have contributed is truly amazing. And they accomplished this almost in a vacuum - no internet, no other tremendous focus by others, no massive number of commentaries they could pull off the shelves to study from.
Again, they have accomplished so much in understanding Daniel and, also, this took place when the RCC did not sit idle and accept their interpretations. They clearly taught the papacy was the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 and that triggered the RCC to use all of its resources to go against them in any way possible.
But getting back to your comment / video, the little horn can be no one other than the papacy. Daniel 2, 7, 8,9 and certainly 11 ALL reveal his identity, his characteristics, his decisions, his desire to he worshipped, his change to one’s salvation, his claim of divinity and infallibility, his changing of God’s laws and commandments, certainly the timing of his coming, where he comes out of, and of course, that “he will continue until he is destroyed without human hands.”
This one then, could not be an end time character, he is a literal man that continues through time by succession within the 4th beast kingdom, AND, SO MUCH MORE!
But despite all the interpretations given by the SDA folks, they were not all interpreted correctly. But Daniel is immensely complex and difficult and, to be candid, there have been no group, denomination, or individual that have been able to unpack the many remaining / major interpretations.
Now, I respectfully would like to ask you what is their understanding of the following:
1) clay within the feet,
2) meaning and timing of 2:34,
3) identity of 10 toes,
4) we already know they believe the papacy is the little horn,
5) identity AND timing of the 10 horns,
6) why did God change the symbol of the 10 toes to 10 horns from chapter 2 to 7,
7) what is the cause of this change,
8) why did the little horn have to come out AFTER the 10 horns.
These are just some of the questions that must be addressed that originate in chapter 2 and move into chapter 7.
These questions are for anyone in this forum. Thanks.
I have the iron clad answer to all of those queries. No sweat. And these correct answers are antithetical to the SDA historicism position. Rightfully so.
For me Daniel is a walk in the park.
So why all this grinding and groaning? Makes no sense to me....
Here is a copy of the last reflective narrative found in the Daniel commentary in chapter 8. It may not give you a complete understanding of the prophecies found in Daniel as they move forward into Revelation, but it may offer you something to consider concerning the question around the 1260 days v the 42 months as well as a very brief understanding of the meaning behind the time element found in Daniel 7:25. It will be so difficult to truly make sense of all of this because we have not yet completed and discussed the chapter 2, 7, or 8 prophetic verses.
Part 1 of 2
Reflective narrative:
The Architecture, Signature, and Final Unraveling of the Counterfeit Kingdom
The Architecture, Signature, and Final Unraveling of the Counterfeit Kingdom
The little horn’s brilliance lies not merely in persuasion, but in architecture. It understands that to endure, deception must be layered. First, the conscience must be captured—so that a human authority is obeyed in place of God’s revealed law and the authority of His Word. Then that captured allegiance must be institutionalized—written into liturgy, calendar, canon law, and catechism—so that substitution becomes normal. Finally, the system must project universality—so that resistance feels like rebellion against history, unity, and even God Himself. A deception that lives only in the mind can be repented of; a deception that is built into institutions and culture can hold generations.
This is what Daniel 7:25 describes when the horn “thinks to change times and law.” In this reading, that verse is doing more than describing pressure—it is describing custody. “A time, times, and half a time” marks the long covenant span during which God’s Ten Words remain placed upon the earth, beginning when they were given to Moses at Sinai. Within that 3,500-year period—understood here as time (1,000) + times (2,000) + half a time (500)—the law of God does not vanish; it remains present, contested, and central. Yet during the latter portion of that span, the commandments fall into the hands of the little horn system for roughly 1,500 years, not to be destroyed, but to be altered, rearranged, obscured, and institutionalized. The horn cannot erase God’s law, so it corrupts it, then wraps that corruption in sacred language, and finally enforces it through layered authority. This is why we do not set dates for the Messiah’s return—yet we can still recognize convergence. If the covenant span is measured, then we are not wandering blindly through history; we are approaching the end of what has been allotted.
Revelation identifies this same actor with divine precision. When John writes, “Here is wisdom… it is the number of a man: his number is 666” (Revelation 13:18), he is not offering a trivial code.
He is marking the system with prophetic clarity. Six is the number of man—created on the sixth day, always falling short of seven, the number of divine completion. Triple six is humanity enthroned at every level: conscience, institution, and world. It is not random repetition; it is exposure. God stamps the counterfeit so it can be identified: human authority multiplied, systematized, made universal, and then presented as though it were divine.
Daniel 8 shows us the inner character of this power: fierce, deceitful, empowered from below, aiming itself at the sanctuary and the holy things of God. Daniel 7 adds that it persecutes the saints of the Most High—and in this reading that persecution includes an assault on God’s Ten Words themselves, because the law becomes the very object of alteration and pressure. Revelation 13 then gives the same power a body, a voice, and a platform. The beast stands where Christ should stand. It speaks where God’s Word should speak. It demands allegiance that belongs only to the Prince of princes. What Daniel shows inwardly—motive, method, and spiritual hostility—Revelation shows outwardly—structure, reach, and enforced compliance.
This is not the profile of a last-minute antichrist who appears for a brief seven-year sliver at the end of time. Daniel places the horn inside the fourth kingdom, rising after Rome divides, growing over time, speaking great words, thinking to change law, and continuing until it is finally broken “without hand.” Revelation shows the same power emerging from the ruins of pagan Rome, receiving a deadly wound, and yet living on. In this framework, that deadly wound corresponds to the Reformation—when Scripture was translated, conscience was awakened, and the system’s authority was openly challenged. The institutional grip was shaken. Yet Revelation says the wound would be healed—and it was. The system survived, reorganized, and reasserted global influence, so that the world once again wondered. The wound did not remove the identity of the beast; it interrupted its dominance, and its healing marked the return of its confidence.
Historically, during the Reformation, Protestant interpreters built on earlier dissenting voices (such as, Arnulf, Bishop of Orléans, Cardinal Benno, Eberhard II, Archbishop of Salzburg, John Wycliffe, and Jan Hus,) —some of whom openly identified the papacy with Antichrist, and in certain cases even with Daniel’s little horn—and they brought that interpretation into the center of prophetic preaching.
In response, alternative prophetic frameworks were introduced—most notably futurism, promoted in Jesuit counter-interpretation during that era. By relocating the antichrist into a brief future seven-year tribulation, attention was diverted away from the long historical career Daniel and Revelation describe.
The spotlight shifted from an enduring system to a hypothetical final villain. But the prophetic texts themselves do not confine the horn to a brief end-time cameo.
They trace a sustained, centuries-long influence extending all the way to judgment. In that sense, a future seven-year antichrist narrative becomes more than a timing mistake—it functions as a theological deflection, moving the reader’s gaze away from the actor Scripture has been describing all along.
Yet the story does not end with the beast’s architecture. God answers architecture with architecture. If the little horn builds control from the top down—capturing conscience, codifying substitution, and projecting universality—God restores from the inside out. And here the prophecy turns toward its final hinge. When the measured covenant span of Daniel 7:25 reaches its end, the Messiah grants His people a corporate Damascus moment. Just as Saul of Tarsus was struck blind and then awakened to recognize the One he had persecuted, so Israel’s blindness is removed. They look upon the One they pierced. Recognition leads to repentance, and repentance leads to proclamation. This moment does not merely change what they believe; it changes what they do. The commandments are no longer held in distorted custody. They are restored in clarity. The Testimony of Jesus is no longer distant or disputed. It becomes confessed, embraced, and proclaimed.
Part 2 of 2
Then—and only then—begins the final 3½-year window. This is not the same as the 3,500 years; it follows it. The longer span ends with awakening. The shorter span begins with witness. Revelation describes that final period using two parallel expressions that are intentionally tied to two different activities in the text. In Revelation 11:3, the period is described as 1,260 days, and it is explicitly connected to prophetic proclamation: “they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” In Revelation 11:2 and 13:5, the same span is described as 42 months, and it is explicitly connected to trampling and beast authority: the holy city is tread underfoot for forty-two months, and power is given to the beast to continue forty-two months. The difference is not mystical; it is textual. Days appear when Revelation is emphasizing prophecy.
Months appear when Revelation is emphasizing permitted opposition. Heaven counts the days of testimony; the beast measures the months of authority. It is one period shown from two angles—witness and resistance.
In this framework, the “two witnesses” are not two individual prophets. They represent the two covenant pillars Revelation repeatedly places at the center of the conflict: the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12:17 defines the remnant as those who “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” These are the two truths the dragon wages war against, and these are the two truths God raises a final witness to proclaim. The 144,000—sealed in Revelation 7 and seen again in Revelation 14 with the Lamb—are the proclaimers of those two realities. They carry the witness. They speak the Word. They testify of Jesus. And they do so for the 1,260 days that complete the final phase of God’s measured plan.
This is also where the Great Jubilee framework reaches its conclusion. Jesus fulfilled His requirements within the seventy weeks, and by the time of the cross 486.5 years of the 490 were complete. But in this framework, the counting of the fourth Great Jubilee paused for Israel when blindness fell and desolation continued. That Jubilee “clock” does not resume by human effort or historical momentum; it resumes when God removes blindness and restores fellowship. The final 3½ years are therefore not a requirement placed upon Christ—His work is finished—but a mission entrusted to His restored people. Their Spirit-empowered proclamation completes what remained to close the final Jubilee cycle, and when that witness is complete, the King appears.
And if this is not the Great Tribulation, then when would it be? This final 3½-year window is fierce precisely because it is final. For centuries the little horn system has survived by layered authority and managed substitution; but when the 144,000 begin proclaiming the restored commandments of God and the pure Testimony of Jesus, the system will recognize that its foundation is being exposed and its world is beginning to collapse. What has been hidden by tradition will be brought into open light. What has been defended by institutional power will be challenged in the conscience of multitudes. The reaction will not be gentle. The 42 months describe a permitted final surge of resistance—trampling, coercion, suppression, and intensified enforcement—because systems that sense collapse reach for control. The world will be pressed into a decision with unusual sharpness.
Every individual will be forced to choose: allegiance to human authority layered in 666, or allegiance to the Lamb and to the restored Word of God.
Then the measured period ends. When the 1,260th day concludes and the 42nd month expires, Daniel’s court scene is no longer distant language. The judgment sits. The books are opened. The beast is destroyed.
The little horn is broken “without hand.” The Prince of princes appears. The counterfeit kingdom—built over centuries—falls in the presence of the true King. The architecture of 666 collapses before the architecture of heaven. What was human-centered and layered in control falls before what is Spirit-breathed and layered in truth. The counterfeit kingdom required centuries to build. The true King needs only to appear.
Did you mean the historicist Interpretaion for Revelation 11 ?
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Here we have in verse "forty and two months" and verse 3 "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" which is 1260 days.
In Daniel 7 and Rev 12 it is expressed as "a time, times and the dividing of time"
In Rev 11 and 13 it is "forty and two months"
In rev 11 and 12 "a thousand two hundred and threescore days"
which is 1,260 days = 1,260 years
"the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" The holy city - the church - the body of Christ - the people of God will be trodden under foot for 1,260 days - which in the year for a day understanding = 1,260 years.
There is actually three fulfilments of this, each concerning the different powers of the Papacy, the persecuting power of the Papacy is this one:
In AD 606 Boniface III was made the first official Pope - forward 1,260 years we have the burning of the last protestant in Barletta, Italy, in 1866.
The two witnesses are the Word and the church (for the church as a witness see Zech 4:11, Rev 1:20, Rev 11:4)
Sorry for the over simplified explanation
"In AD 606 Boniface III was made the first official Pope - forward 1,260 years we have the burning of the last protestant in Barletta, Italy, in 1866."
Are you seriously trying to sell this zany nuttery as sound exegesis?
Just to let you know, the Church is nowhere to be found in Daniel nor in Revelation chapters 6 thru 18, all of which constitute the 70th week of Daniel that applies strictly to the redemption of the NATION ISRAEL.
