Daniel's 1260 vs. 1290 vs. 1335 vs. 2300 Days

[cv5]

Those of us who know how to correctly and properly interpret scripture...


The time of Jacob's trouble is Armageddon - it occurs after Christ returns - during the [time of the] 'Wrath of God' - at the Second Coming of Christ.


The 'Wrath' comes later - when/after Christ returns - at the Second Coming of Christ.


Keep studying...

The time of Jacob's trouble is Armageddon - it occurs after Christ returns - during the [time of the] 'Wrath of God' - at the Second Coming of Christ.

100% wrong as usual. Congratulations.

"The time of Jacob's trouble is Armageddon"

Armageddon aka Har Megiddo is a LOCATION, not Jacob's trouble.

And this location is where Christ intervenes and ENDS Jacobs trouble, not initiates it!

Yes friend, I do in fact understand Daniel and Revelation with great fidelity. And I understand that I do understand. I also understand perfectly well that you do not understand. I also understand perfectly well that you do not understand that I do in fact understand.

And believe me, knowing that I know and knowing that you do NOT know and knowing exactly why is a great feeling. Again, a feeling that you will likely never know

Conflating a literal geographic staging ground with a chronological era is a fundamentally sloppy hermeneutical error.

The commentator is mixing up categories—geography versus time—and completely reversing the eschatological sequence.

The Categorical Error
The Location: As you noted, Har Megiddo (Armageddon) in Revelation 16:16 is a physical place—the hill or ancient tell of Megiddo overlooking the Jezreel Valley. It is strictly the military muster point where the nations gather.

The Era: "The time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) refers specifically to an epoch of unprecedented national distress for Israel. The text explicitly defines it as a "time" ('et in Hebrew).

The Sequential Error
To your second point, equating the two misses the entire narrative arc of the prophetic texts.
The time of Jacob's trouble represents the tribulation itself. The gathering of the armies at Megiddo is the climax of that period. Christ's subsequent intervention—striking the nations gathered there and at Jerusalem (Zechariah 14, Revelation 19)—is the rescue operation that definitively terminates Jacob's trouble.

Calling Armageddon the "time of Jacob's trouble" is like calling the beaches of Normandy "World War II." One is the physical staging ground that helps end the conflict; the other is the conflict itself. You are entirely correct to call out the poor exegesis.

 

[GaryA]

The term 'Armageddon' is commonly used to refer to the particular-and-specific 'event' that takes place at the location - in the same exact way that some well-known battles are referred to by the location where it occurred.

Iwo Jima
Korea
Midway
Vietnam
Waterloo
etc.

 

[GaryA]

And this location is where Christ intervenes and ENDS Jacobs trouble, not initiates it!

Go read the verses in the 'Armageddon' column of the chart/table on this web page:

Order Of Events

 

[cv5]

The term 'Armageddon' is commonly used to refer to the particular-and-specific 'event' that takes place at the location - in the same exact way that some well-known battles are referred to by the location where it occurred.

Iwo Jima
Korea
Midway
Vietnam
Waterloo
etc.

The incident is the Time of Jacobs Trouble.

The time frame is future, at the 70th week of Daniel.

Har Megggido is location at which, at the END of the 70th week, Jesus Messiah the Go'el RETURNS and TERMINATES the genocidal assault of the Man of Sin (ho anthrōpos tēs hamartias) against the Jews by destroying his armies effortlessly like "tearing apart a young goat."

And yes, Samson is a pre-eminent type of Christ, a Nazarene from birth to death.

 

[Researcher]

...to this Messianic Jewish scholar.

I can see how your background gives you great Biblical insight.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s...

Are you him?

Fruchtenbaum rejects symbolic interpretations (such as the historicist "day-for-a-year" principle) and takes the phrase **2,300 evenings and mornings** literally.

Got it.

The Hebrew phrase *'erev boqer* mirrors the language of Genesis 1 and the specific daily temple ritual—the *Tamid*

My 2300-year timeline begins with this:

Genesis 8:20 - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Not exactly the same thing as a daily ritual, but there seems to be a hint at least.

Fruchtenbaum understands the truth of this passage: that the 1,150-day calculation fits the exact historical duration of the intense desecration and suspension of the daily sacrifices under Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Suspension is not what Daniel describes. Daniel describes the Daily Sacrifice being 'taken away', as in permanently.

This is where his theory fails. I would say he is debunked at this point. Sorry.

In Fruchtenbaum’s exposition of Daniel 8, the "Little Horn" of chapter 8 is **not** the end-times Antichrist directly,

I agree.

...but rather **Antiochus IV Epiphanes**, the Seleucid tyrant.

I disagree. The verses in Daniel 11 don't fit at all with that conclusion.

While Daniel 7's "little horn" arises out of the Fourth (Roman) Empire and represents the future Antichrist

I agree.

Daniel 8's "little horn" arises out of one of the four divisions of Alexander the Great's Greek Empire (specifically the Seleucid branch).

Kind of. You are missing the bigger picture. Said Little Horn *overcomes* the Seleucids and becomes the new King of the North at Daniel 11:20. The Little Horn of Daniel 8 is part of the early Roman Empire.

Think of the deadly wound that is healed. It is a Roman head. The Little Horn 1.0 of Daniel 8 exists in the times when Jesus walked the earth. The Little Horn 2.0 of Daniel 7 is the one that comes back to life.

This is why scholars have trouble with the ten horns. Does the Little Horn come before or after them? The answer is 'yes'. In other words, he does both.

* **The Event:** Antiochus suppressed Jewish religious practices, halted the *Tamid* (daily sacrifices), and desecrated the Second Temple by erecting an altar to Zeus Over the Jewish altar (the historical "abomination of desolation" of the Maccabean period).

That would be Daniel 11:17. Antiochus IV Epiphanes was given the 'Daughter of Women', as in Judea, to try and corrupt her.

Daniel 11:18 is the famous 'circle in the sand' incident with the Roman ambassador Gaius Popillius Laenas.

Daniel 11:19 is when Antiochus IV Epiphanes died. He is no longer mentioned or referenced after that.

* **The Pattern:** Just as Antiochus abolished the daily sacrifice in Jerusalem, set up a blasphemous image in the sanctuary, and persecuted Israel for a set time period, the future Antichrist (Daniel 9:27, 11:36–45) will break his covenant with Israel in the middle of the 70th Week, halt temple sacrifices, and desecrate the rebuilt Third Temple.

Ugh. I don't even want to get into just how blasphemous it is to call the Messiah the Prince the Antichrist in Daniel 9:26, not to mention how ignorant it is to believe God will bless a so called 'Third Temple' in the future. Give me a break.

As for Daniel 11:36 to 45, that is about the Battle of Actium and the Herodian Dynasty.

What, you think 'Ships of Chittim' are aircraft carriers or something? Lol, come on man.



Maybe they are UFOs.

 

[Researcher]

I watched the whole 7-part series.

Nice. Yeah, he agrees with you on the Abomination of Desolation being about Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Of course I disagree, however I believe he nailed it on the Herod connection.

 

[Researcher]

Yet - the passage in Revelation 20 you made reference to is unmistakably tied to the Second Coming of Christ and the 'first resurrection' - the thousand years being the Millennium.

Ah, now I see your point.

What would you call this event?:

Matthew 27:52-53 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Some call it the 'Resurrection of the Saints', however there could have been non-Saints as well if this is what Daniel 12:2 is referring to.

 

[Researcher]

And no "we" are definitely not in the tribulation. It is the time of Jacob's trouble.

I believe they are synonymous:

Jeremiah 30:7 - Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

The above verse is referring to 70 AD, which *began* the Great Tribulation we are all in now.

Look at the context:

Jeremiah 30:9 - But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

That is referring to Jesus at hist first coming. Jesus is 'raised up'. Think of the symbolism of that phrase. This is the smoking gun that the verse is describing the past.

The rest of the verses seem to describe 70 AD as well as the end times and everything in between. This fits the idea that the Time of Jacob's Trouble/Great Tribulation lasts for thousands of years.

There is a Mystery Babylon theme as well. Mystery Babylon is redeemed in the end. She receives Salvation:

Jeremiah 30:17 -For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

I see that as New Jerusalem and not 1948 or whatever. The Bride of the Lamb is cleaned and made ready.

 

[Researcher]

Mystery Babylon is redeemed in the end. She receives Salvation:

That might trigger some folks... lol.

God is Love. He can save whoever he wants.

 

[cv5]

I believe they are synonymous:



The above verse is referring to 70 AD, which *began* the Great Tribulation we are all in now.

Look at the context:



That is referring to Jesus at hist first coming. Jesus is 'raised up'. Think of the symbolism of that phrase. This is the smoking gun that the verse is describing the past.

The rest of the verses seem to describe 70 AD as well as the end times and everything in between. This fits the idea that the Time of Jacob's Trouble/Great Tribulation lasts for thousands of years.

There is a Mystery Babylon theme as well. Mystery Babylon is redeemed in the end. She receives Salvation:



I see that as New Jerusalem and not 1948 or whatever. The Bride of the Lamb is cleaned and made ready.

"And no "we" are definitely not in the tribulation. It is the time of Jacob's trouble."

The above verse is referring to 70 AD, which *began* the Great Tribulation we are all in now.

We? Who is we? Certainly not the Church. And certainly not me.

Are you a son of Jacob? If so, you had better pisteuson ep' auton your Messiah....ASAP.

 

[Komentaja]

I consider myself a historicist and believe that the Two Witnesses are two individual people and that the 1260 days are literal [24-hour] days.

On what textual basis do you interpret the 1260 as literal days here and sometimes literal years?

There is noo "fantasy" in believing in that 7 year or 3,5 year tribulation. Those are the time lengths given in the book of Revelation itself! How is that fantasy??

 

[Researcher]

We? Who is we?

Everyone in the entire world.

Certainly not the Church. And certainly not me.

Must be nice.

My mom in Italy used to hide Jews in her basement during WWII. The Nazis would come looking for them. She saw dead people hanging in the streets. Bombs would go off all the time. And yet at the same time, some folks were having the time of their lives in other countries. Life is so strange.

Romans 12:12 - Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Great tribulation is what many people go through in life. To marginalize what they go through is not something I wish to do.

 

[cv5]

Everyone in the entire world.



Must be nice.

My mom in Italy used to hide Jews in her basement during WWII. The Nazis would come looking for them. She saw dead people hanging in the streets. Bombs would go off all the time. And yet at the same time, some folks were having the time of their lives in other countries. Life is so strange.



Great tribulation is what many people go through in life. To marginalize what they go through is not something I wish to do.

Frankly, my heartfelt advice for you is the following:
Scrap your eschatological model completely and retool from the ground up on a biblically sound foundation and correct hermeneutics.

Your rambling incoherent "historicist" (if it even fits that bill) pretensions sound more like an LSD trip than a deliberate
effort in apprehending the truth of the matter.

Seriously, its that bad. Way waaayyyy off the beaten path and out in the weeds.

I recommend Sir Robert Andersons work for starters. He nails it and has the goods to prove his case.

 

[Researcher]

Frankly, my heartfelt advice for you is the following:
Scrap your eschatological model completely and retool from the ground up on a biblically sound foundation and correct hermeneutics.

Your rambling incoherent "historicist" (if it even fits that bill) pretensions sound more like an LSD trip than a deliberate
effort in apprehending the truth of the matter.

Seriously, its that bad. Way waaayyyy off the beaten path and out in the weeds.

I recommend Sir Robert Andersons work for starters. He nails it and has the goods to prove his case.

Meh. Ad hominem attacks don't impress me at all; in fact, it does the opposite. How about I post some more 'LSD trips' for you to mock since I have some free time at the moment. I have no doubt that you will be way too arrogant to comprehend the pearls I will cast at you, but whatever. This is also for anyone else that wishes to understand the meat of the Word.

It goes like this...

The Tabernacles and Temples were scale models of eukaryotic cells. Did you know this fact?

​

A cell requires nutrients for it to survive:



So, guess what the Tamid were all about?

They were nourishing the cell. Get it? Of course you don't.

Like this:

Revelation 12:6 - And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The Woman is Abraham's Seed. The wilderness is the Exodus. The 'place prepared' is the Tabernacle in the Wilderness.

They FED HER. Get it? No? Are you even reading this?

Let's try this another way...

On the Day of Atonement, the cell becomes symbolic of a female egg cell that is fertilized and becomes a zygote. HER SEED:

​

I showed you this already. Yom Kippur is like a wedding day:



The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is symbolic of Abraham and Sarah conceiving a child and the beginning of the Twelve Tribes leading to the Seed of the Messiah.

The High Priest carried the Blood, the DNA, into the Nucleolus to fertilize the cell. Blood is sprinkled SEVEN times. The SEVENTH element is Nitrogen, as in FERTILIZER. You know, Shmita? Let the land rest for SEVEN so it can regain NITROGEN?



Do you get it or is the concept of conception and fertilizers too much of an 'acid trip'... like wow man.

Long story short, the Israelites were *nourishing* their freshly conceived Messiah for 1260 years until he was born.

https://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Ancient-Israelite-Temples-Timeline4.jpg

Do you understand? They were *ministering* to His Body. They were being tested to see if they could take care of God when he is a vulnerable fetus and baby.

Sometimes they fed Her Seed too much:

Isaiah 1:11 - To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

They made baby Jesus sick.

40 years in the wilderness is symbolic of 40 weeks of pregnancy. Meat of the Word.

How a teaching that is so beautiful can be thrown into the trash by you and so many others is something I will never understand.

 

[Researcher]

This day-year principle is bogus.

By the way...

Your avatar is symbolic of Mitochondrial DNA:



Mitochondrial DNA is circular in nature, hence the inspired arc shaped branches. It is passed down by the mother which is why some consider it a feminine symbol.

The Seed is the Word.

Psalms 119:105 נ (NUN). Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Feet are sometimes symbolic of...

 

[cv5]

Meh. Ad hominem attacks don't impress me at all; in fact, it does the opposite. How about I post some more 'LSD trips' for you to mock since I have some free time at the moment. I have no doubt that you will be way too arrogant to comprehend the pearls I will cast at you, but whatever. This is also for anyone else that wishes to understand the meat of the Word.

It goes like this...

The Tabernacles and Temples were scale models of eukaryotic cells. Did you know this fact?

View attachment 292733

View attachment 292734​

A cell requires nutrients for it to survive:

View attachment 292735

So, guess what the Tamid were all about?

They were nourishing the cell. Get it? Of course you don't.

Like this:



The Woman is Abraham's Seed. The wilderness is the Exodus. The 'place prepared' is the Tabernacle in the Wilderness.

They FED HER. Get it? No? Are you even reading this?

Let's try this another way...

On the Day of Atonement, the cell becomes symbolic of a female egg cell that is fertilized and becomes a zygote. HER SEED:

View attachment 292736​

I showed you this already. Yom Kippur is like a wedding day:

View attachment 292738

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is symbolic of Abraham and Sarah conceiving a child and the beginning of the Twelve Tribes leading to the Seed of the Messiah.

The High Priest carried the Blood, the DNA, into the Nucleolus to fertilize the cell. Blood is sprinkled SEVEN times. The SEVENTH element is Nitrogen, as in FERTILIZER. You know, Shmita? Let the land rest for SEVEN so it can regain NITROGEN?

View attachment 292741

Do you get it or is the concept of conception and fertilizers too much of an 'acid trip'... like wow man.

Long story short, the Israelites were *nourishing* their freshly conceived Messiah for 1260 years until he was born.

View attachment 292742

https://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Ancient-Israelite-Temples-Timeline4.jpg

Do you understand? They were *ministering* to His Body. They were being tested to see if they could take care of God when he is a vulnerable fetus and baby.

Sometimes they fed Her Seed too much:



They made baby Jesus sick.

40 years in the wilderness is symbolic of 40 weeks of pregnancy. Meat of the Word.

How a teaching that is so beautiful can be thrown into the trash by you and so many others is something I will never understand.

Lol. Interesting insights. And yes, the Bible is a tuned fractal information system.

However, what you fail to comprehend correctly is that the Bible is also intentionally calibrated to our particular scale of reality and to human consciousness.

When the Bible speaks of an actual day, and of a tangible throne situated in a human-inhabited city called Jerusalem, that is the scale of reality we must recognize. And when the Bible specifies 173,880 days leading to Mashiach Nagid—Messiah the Prince—and that chronology is demonstrated to correspond to historical reality, it provides a dependable benchmark from which we may assess the credibility of the specified prophetic outcome.

Oh, and did I mention that there is a tangible, actual nation of Israel across the pond?

Yes, Israel has indeed been re-formed as a nation and will yet fulfil its specified prophetic role in the epic end-times saga soon to be revealed.

 

[GaryA]

The time frame is future, at the 70th week of Daniel.

The 70th week of Daniel ended in 34 A.D.

 

[GaryA]

What would you call this event?:



Some call it the 'Resurrection of the Saints', however there could have been non-Saints as well if this is what Daniel 12:2 is referring to.

That event was only saints being brought back to life - all indications are that they died again later - it was not a glorified-body kind of resurrection. It was a 'witness' to the resurrection of Christ and the power of God.

 

[GaryA]

I believe they are synonymous:



The above verse is referring to 70 AD, which *began* the Great Tribulation we are all in now.

No - the time of Jacob's trouble is not the 'great tribulation' that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:21 - it is the 'event' of Armageddon - Jeremiah 30:7 is referring to this event. Read the whole chapter very carefully. This does not match the outcome of the events of circa 70 A.D.; rather, it is the future "saving of Israel" that comes out of Armageddon after Christ returns at the Second Coming of Christ.

Look at the context:




That is referring to Jesus at hist first coming. Jesus is 'raised up'. Think of the symbolism of that phrase. This is the smoking gun that the verse is describing the past.

No - 'raised up' as in raise up a king and not raise up Christ on a cross. And, this did not occur at His first coming - but, will be at His second coming.

The rest of the verses seem to describe 70 AD as well as the end times and everything in between. This fits the idea that the Time of Jacob's Trouble/Great Tribulation lasts for thousands of years.

It is all-too-easy to confuse the events of 70 A.D. with the events of Armageddon - "similar language" is used in describing both events; however, the difference is in the details.

Please take a look at the 'Armageddon' column of the chart/table on this web page:

Order Of Events

Those verses are not "70 A.D. verses"; rather, they are referring to Armageddon. This is the time of Jacob's trouble.

There is a Mystery Babylon theme as well. Mystery Babylon is redeemed in the end. She receives Salvation:

Israel is 'redeemed' (in its proper context); Mystery Babylon is not (never).

I see that as New Jerusalem and not 1948 or whatever.

No - this is at the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

The Bride of the Lamb is cleaned and made ready.

This should be a clue to you (to that effect) - this is part of the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

On what textual basis do you interpret the 1260 as literal days here and sometimes literal years?

I will address this a bit later on when I have more time to spend on it specifically. Please be patient. Lord willing, I will get to it sooner rather than later...

There is noo "fantasy" in believing in that 7 year or 3,5 year tribulation. Those are the time lengths given in the book of Revelation itself! How is that fantasy??

In the meanwhile, please show me the particular-and-specific places in Revelation that you are referring to and I will address each of them in a future post.