Calvinism is Gospel !

[HeIsHere]

We are saved by grace through faith
in Jesus Christ. No faith? No salvation.

Agreed.

I think this fits your post.

 

[HeIsHere]

Scripture says that regeneration is HOW one is saved and also that God has chosen to save (by regeneration) those who believe, belief being the clear prerequisite.

Face it, Calvinism is not found in scripture.
People need to stop being duped by it.

 

[Anchorite]

According to you, His work is insufficient. It requires the work of individuals to be complete.

Also, while my theology is best described as reformed, I'm not a Calvinist. You perhaps should be ashamed for lazy labeling and slander.

You are slandering me and bearing false witness.

I do not say that Christ’s work is insufficient.

Each person must accept the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for it to be effective for their soul.

God does not force salvation on anyone, like you seem to believe.

 

[HeIsHere]

You are slandering me and bearing false witness.

I do not say that Christ’s work is insufficient.

Each person must accept the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for it to be effective for their soul.

God does not force salvation on anyone, like you seem to believe.

It usually goes that way... the slander, bearing false witness etc.,

 

[HeIsHere]

I know you don't even believe what you posted. "Unconditional election" does not exist in God's Word.? You know it does.

Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom_11:7 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
1Th_1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

Would you like many, many more?

Do you think this is about you?

 

[Cameron143]

You are slandering me and bearing false witness.

I do not say that Christ’s work is insufficient.

Each person must accept the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for it to be effective for their soul.

God does not force salvation on anyone, like you seem to believe.

Hardly. You have man as the master of his fate and the captain of his soul. You didn't say Christ's work was insufficient directly, but by making man the arbiter of salvation, you render man the determiner of salvation and not Christ.

 

[Genez]

Youm try proving it.

+
You sound like the Hatfield and McCoys school of theology.

It is embarrassing.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I don't think we will find any common ground to agree on anything, as it's clear to me that you have been thoroughly indoctrinated by Arminian theology, which is not supported by the Bible.
It teaches the man centred "saved by works" version of the gospel, while the Bible reveals that Gods elect are saved by grace.

The fact that you blame Arminias shows that you have not gone far enough back in history to understand the true roots of is now called Calvinism. The Catholic Bishop Augustine of Hippo is the primary figure responsible for importing ideas about theistic determinism, original sin and total human inability into the pure stream of the apostolic gospel. The generations of Greek-speaking Patristic writers prior to Augustine (d. 430 AD) overwhelmingly affirmed human free will and actively refuted philosophical or theological determinism as incompatible with Christian teaching.

I discovered this after I began studying how the Patristic "fathers" interpreted scriptures differently than Augustine, Martin Luther and Zwingli. I found that Augustinians had, in crucial ways, had abandoned key aspects of what was originally understood to be the good news of salvation by making it into a sort of lottery no one had any ability to choose.

Here is what Calvinist theologian and historian Loraine Boettner said about this shift in thinking:
“The earlier church fathers [those before Augustine]. . . taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet alongside of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will.” [11]

[11] Loraine Boettner, Calvinism in History, Monergism.com, http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/boettner_calvinism.html#chapter1, ch. 1, para. 1, accessed 9/4/19.

The inclusion of theistic DETERMINISM as an essential PART of the gospel did not come about as the result of biblical exegesis. Instead, it was absorbed from the many DETERMINISTIC religions that existed at that time such as Gnosticism, Stoicism, or Manichaeism. All of these taught unilateral determinism which is the the belief that all events, including human actions, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.

This was one reason for the Great Schizm which divided the Church. The Western (Catholic) half followed Augustine spoke primarily Latin while the Eastern (Orthodox) who still spoke Greek continued following what had been taught by the teachers during the centuries after the Apostles.

It is no coincidence that Augustine had been a member of the cult of Manichaeism for 9 years prior to his conversion. The name Manichaeism comes from the name of the founder of that movement - the Persian "prophet" MANI. The extent of Augustine's knowledge of their beiefs can be demonstrated in how Augustine quoted the Persian Gnostic prophet Mani directly and emphatically in his writings, primarily from two specific works: the Epistula fundamenti (Fundamental Epistle) and the Thesaurus (Treasure [of Life]). Augustine claimed he was capable of quoting “innumerable passages from the books of Mani.” Manichaeism, taught a strong form of soteriological determinism, meaning that one’s spiritual fate was largely predetermined by the mixture of light and darkness within them.

It is exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to find quotations in the historical Christian writings before Augustine that support a doctrine of hard determinism before the fifth century when Augustine lived. These are historical facts that can be discovered by comparing what Augustine wrote and what had been taught over the first three centuries BEFORE him by the Church fathers who, unlike Augustine, could still read the Greek language of the NT and the writings of the Greek-speaking Church Fathers that came after the Apostles.

I think it is necessary for all seekers of the truth to search these matters out and find out what the Bible does and does not say

 

[John146]

You tried to defend your "saved by works" version of the gospel when I quoted;

Saved by works? Nope, saved by grace through the Lord Jesus Christ. God's righteousness through Jesus Christ is imputed to those who believe.

 

[Standard]

The Blood of the Lamb: Full Atonement​

Scripture clearly shows the inability of any person to deliver himself from the guilt of sin and from the consequent sentence of God: death (Rom. 3:10-18). The law of God cannot provide a way of deliverance (Gal. 3:10). There is simply no way to escape the condemnation of the righteous God through our own efforts.

God provided the way out of this horrible situation. He sends His own Son, the second person of the Trinity, into our flesh (Gal. 4:4). Christ provided His life to redeem His people. He bore the curse of God to remove the curse from them (Gal. 3:13).

This payment was full and complete: once made for all of His own (Heb. 10:12). Nothing more need be added to meet the just requirements of the righteous God. Salvation has been merited by Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Neither man’s work nor the intercession of saints or other creatures can add to that which Christ has already accomplished (Heb. 10:14, 18).

This work of Christ was the fulfilment of God’s word spoken in Genesis 3:15. The “seed of the woman” crushed the head of the serpent on the cross. Christ accomplished all of this for His people—not for all people (Matt. 1:21). He would deliver all those “given Him of the Father” (John 6:37). He gives His life for “His sheep” (John 10:11). He did not give His life, then, for those whom He says are “not of my sheep” (John 10:26). Christ unconditionally assures “His sheep” that He gives them eternal life. They shall never perish nor shall any man pluck them out of His hand nor out of the hand of His Father (10:28-29).

We may not, then, tell all who hear, “Christ died for you.” Nor have we the right to say, “God loves all of you.”

This is the great wonder of salvation: that God should deliver poor, miserable sinners, no more deserving than any others, and provide them with forgiveness and adoption unto sons. This is the power of God’s grace which He has shown in Christ’s cross (Eph. 2:8-10). Salvation is of grace—all of grace, grace only to the glory of God’s name. We can never then boast in our works nor claim salvation on the basis of what man does.

Do you know this great Saviour? Do you belong to Him because He has redeemed you of your sins? Then you are blessed indeed. Are you troubled of heart? Are you weary because of your sins? To such Christ says, “Come unto me … and I will give you rest” (Matt. 11:28). With the apostle Paul, we too can state emphatically, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house!” (Acts 16:31). Rev. Hanko

Covenant Reformed News – Volume I, Issue 7 – CPRC 51

That's exactly it.... Saved by Jesus' sacrifice and not works. Regardless of the fact we're asked to follow His commands, that's isn't what saves us. All we're to do is believe on the Lord, accepting His free gift and we're His people. Praise God!

 

[brightfame52]

+
You sound like the Hatfield and McCoys school of theology.

It is embarrassing.

You challenging someone to prove something that you haven't proved. You present unproven sound bites.

 

[brightfame52]

That's exactly it.... Saved by Jesus' sacrifice and not works. Regardless of the fact we're asked to follow His commands, that's isn't what saves us. All we're to do is believe on the Lord, accepting His free gift and we're His people. Praise God!

This is works as well. You still conditioning salvation on what one must do.

 

[rogerg]

Your idea that faith itself is the gift of God rather than the willing response of a human to the Spirit comes from
a total misunderstanding of the meaning of Ephesians 2:8:
Ephesians 2:8
8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; IT is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.…

You misunderstood this verse because, in English, IT is an INDEFINITE PRONOUN. The reason it is INDEFINITE is because English nouns do not have gender. However, the Greek language in which the Bible was written has THREE genders - Masculine, Feminine and Neuter. Also nouns must also agree in gender with with their referrant pronouns and adjectives.

In this instance, the PRONOUN IT is a neuter pronoun which grammatically could NOT refer to either GRACE OR to FAITH since both of those words are FEMININE. To see what this verse is saying we will have to consult with someone who is widely regarded as a consummate master of Koine Greek dialect - A. T. Robertson.

I hope you don't mind me jumping into this discussion, but I was reading through the points you made and wanted to offer a different perspective based on a closer look at the scriptures

The grammar argument you are trying to make actually relies on English translation choices rather than what is written. The words 'it is' are not present in the original text; they were added by English translators strictly for readability.
The literal text reads: 'and this not of yourselves—of God the gift.'
When a pronoun like 'this' is used here, it is pointing to the entire process that was just stated: being saved by grace through faith. It is a complete package deal. You cannot pick apart a package deal and claim that a human manufactured the faith portion of it independently. Paul puts the words 'of God' right at the front to emphasize that the entire origin of salvation belongs to Him.
We can see this in Ephesians 2:7, where it says God's grace was shown to us in Christ. Since the grace is fully through Him, then the faith is a byproduct of that and also of Christ, leaving no room for human boasting. A spiritually dead person cannot produce that faith on their own, otherwise, the verse contradicts itself.

Abiding is also about our continuing to believe the gospel and following after Jesus. In fact, when Jesus taught on the necessity of ABIDING, REMAINING IN, CONTINUING IN CHRIST He used the illustration of the Vine-Branches relationship.

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

A. In John 15:2 Jesus speaks about a BRANCH (i.e., a believer/follower of Jesus) who is taken away.
Since branches are organically connected to the Vine they cannot be taken away unless they are first severed from the Vine.
Only then can they be hauled away and disposed of. According to Jesus this happens only after a long period of bearing NO FRUIT at all.
B. In John 15:6 Jesus goes into even more detail about someone who was originally joined to Him but subsequently became alienated and did not continue:
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
"Withering" speaks of the gradual cessation of the process of life.
Notice that the final cause of their departure is said to be IN THEM in their failure to continue, remain and abide in Christ. What they did or did not do is the result of many choices to serve the world, the flesh and the Devil rather than the One to whom they owed their lives.
C. Grace, as I have said, refers to God's FAVOR towards us which is based on the kind intentions He has towards man. Your doctrine compells you to say that human choice has nothing to do with it but Christ uses the possibility of our falling away as a warning to us. God does not issue warnings to animals or inanimate objects which have no moral agency.

People can attach themselves to a church, perform religious duties, and look like followers by their own choice and willpower. But if God didn't place them into the vine, they eventually wither. Jesus says exactly this in Matthew 15:13: 'Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.'
When a person walks out of the faith, they aren't a child of God losing their salvation. Their walking away is just the outward proof that God has removed a fake branch. As Jesus says in John 15:2, the Father takes away every branch that doesn't bear fruit. The Apostle John explains this clearly in 1 John 2:19, saying that when people leave the faith, it proves 'they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.' God removes them to show they were never truly part of the family.
If a true child of God could fail to abide and end up in the fire, it would mean our inheritance could wither and die. But 1 Peter 1:4-5 tells us the exact opposite.
It says our inheritance is 'incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.' And it guarantees that we are 'kept by the power of God through faith.'
Our salvation doesn't depend on a human branch's ability to hold onto the vine by its own willpower. The inheritance is already locked away safely in heaven, and our faith is guarded on earth by God's own power and commitment. An imitation branch will wither and be thrown into the fire, but a true son is entirely safe because God is the one doing the keeping from start to finish

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Journey_man]

The term EFFECTUAL call is not actually used in the text of scripture. You have had to COIN this special theological term and then to ADD the idea INTO the text. This was how the ancient Gnostics perverted the scripture - by assuming their presuppositions and then insinuating them into the text. They justified this practice by asserting that they had received special revelation which was rejected by other naturally-minded unenlightened Christians.

Your ideas, like theirs, come from OUTSIDE SCRIPTURE from teachers like Augustine who had imported many of their ideas from the Gnostic cult of Manichaeism to which Augustine had belonged for nine years prior to his conversion. Subsequently he interwove deterministic ideas into Christian terminology. One example of your attempt to do away with moral agency and responsibility is how you have attempted to eliminate human choice by promoting the EXISTANCE of two KINDS of calls - one of which is effectual and limited and another of which is universal but devoid of any power to save.

Of course, Paul never spoke about a presentation of the gospel being counterfeit and deceitful. He only acknowledged the existance of the one message he preached:
16 I am not ashamed of THE gospel, because it is THE power of God for salvation to EVERYONE who BELIEVES IT, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17 THE the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”…
(Romans 1:16-17)
Paul never promoted a counterfeit gospel which did not have the power to save anyone who believes. Offering a cure that cannot cure and has no therapeutic benefit breeds false hope which might actually lead to the death of a sick person who takes it. In our culture, such a person is guilty of fraud and malicious intent.


This makes God Himself a deceiver as much as a seller of sterile seed would be considered a deceiver. This is especially serious if what the person is offering as a cure for an illness is not only false but known to be false. It is a sign of malicious intent as well if sold to someone in desperate condition

Your idea that faith itself is the gift of God rather than the willing response of a human to the Spirit comes from
a total misunderstanding of the meaning of Ephesians 2:8:
Ephesians 2:8
8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; IT is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.…

You misunderstood this verse because, in English, IT is an INDEFINITE PRONOUN. The reason it is INDEFINITE is because English nouns do not have gender. However, the Greek language in which the Bible was written has THREE genders - Masculine, Feminine and Neuter. Also nouns must also agree in gender with with their referrant pronouns and adjectives.

In this instance, the PRONOUN IT is a neuter pronoun which grammatically could NOT refer to either GRACE OR to FAITH since both of those words are FEMININE. To see what this verse is saying we will have to consult with someone who is widely regarded as a consummate master of Koine Greek dialect - A. T. Robertson.

Here is what Robertson wrote about what Paul was saying:
Ephesians 2:8
And that (κα τουτο). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη, and so refers not to πιστις (feminine) or to χαρις (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εξ υμων, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (δωρον) and not the result of our work.
So contrary to what you have said faith, trusting in relying upon depending upon God is an position humanity has to take. It is not a GOOD WORK (that that earns God's favor through meritorious works). To say this would undermine the difference between faith and works that Paul establishes in much of his writings.


Abiding is also about our continuing to believe the gospel and following after Jesus. In fact, when Jesus taught on the necessity of ABIDING, REMAINING IN, CONTINUING IN CHRIST He used the illustration of the Vine-Branches relationship.

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

A. In John 15:2 Jesus speaks about a BRANCH (i.e., a believer/follower of Jesus) who is taken away.
Since branches are organically connected to the Vine they cannot be taken away unless they are first severed from the Vine.
Only then can they be hauled away and disposed of. According to Jesus this happens only after a long period of bearing NO FRUIT at all.
B. In John 15:6 Jesus goes into even more detail about someone who was originally joined to Him but subsequently became alienated and did not continue:
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
"Withering" speaks of the gradual cessation of the process of life.
Notice that the final cause of their departure is said to be IN THEM in their failure to continue, remain and abide in Christ. What they did or did not do is the result of many choices to serve the world, the flesh and the Devil rather than the One to whom they owed their lives.
C. Grace, as I have said, refers to God's FAVOR towards us which is based on the kind intentions He has towards man. Your doctrine compells you to say that human choice has nothing to do with it but Christ uses the possibility of our falling away as a warning to us. God does not issue warnings to animals or inanimate objects which have no moral agency.

There is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that fallen man has the ability to believe the gospel. People believe or reject the gospel because of divine election, total depravity, and the effectual call of the Holy Spirit. Salvation depends entirely on God’s sovereign grace rather than human free will.

Due to the fall of man, humans are spiritually "dead" in sin, meaning the natural mind is hostile to God and unable to choose good on its own.
Unbelievers naturally reject the gospel because they lack the spiritual sight and desire to embrace Christ. Without outside intervention, every person would choose to reject it.

Before creation, God chose specific individuals (the elect) to receive salvation, not based on any foreseen good works or faith in them, but purely according to His own merciful will.
The fundamental reason one person believes rather than another is that God set His love and choice upon that individual.

The external preaching of the gospel goes out to everyone as a general invitation, but it is routinely resisted by the unregenerate heart.
When God intends to save an elect person, the Holy Spirit gives an effectual call—an internal, life-giving work that transforms the "heart of stone" into a "heart of flesh".
This divine power overcomes human resistance, sovereignly granting the spiritual life needed to willingly repent and believe.

 

[Genez]

Agreed.

I think this fits your post.

View attachment 292723

He does not change our nature to believe in Him.

He controls BY THE POWER OF HIS GRACE the flesh. The flesh is where our depravity sits on its throne.
Grace controls our flesh so that our soul can be made to be free to consider what God's drawing is presenting to our mind.
That is why we need to be saved by grace.

If we keep accepting His drawing?
He will reach a point where the Father will clinch the deal and present to us the Word of God.
Jesus Christ is the Word. That Father hands us over to the Gospel!

When we accepted God's Word?
The Word of God that was accepted becomes our faith.
Jesus is the Word made flesh!

The Faith we have that God approves of?
Is simply taking God on His Word.

When God assigns angels to do something?
What God communicates to them?
They accept without question = faith.

grace and peace!!!!!

 

[Journey_man]

As your way of thinking is pointing to? One would think they ate from the Tree of Evil, not knowledge of Good and Evil.
They ate from the Tree of knowledge of Good AND Evil.

We have the ability to make choices in favor of good, but only after being presented it externally as an option.

You claim that "man has the ability to make choices in favour of good, after he is presented it as an option".
The problem with that view is, Gods Word reveals that it's not true and the truth of the matter is found in -

Genesis 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

According to God, man was created perfectly righteous. But after he ate of the tree, he lost his freedom to choose and instead became a slave to sin and Satan.

 

[Anchorite]

You claim that "man has the ability to make choices in favour of good, after he is presented it as an option".
The problem with that view is, Gods Word reveals that it's not true and the truth of the matter is found in -

Genesis 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

According to God, man was created perfectly righteous. But after he ate of the tree, he lost his freedom to choose and instead became a slave to sin and Satan.

Genesis 6:5 is referring to the world near the time of Noah’s flood, not humanity of all time periods.

If unsaved people cannot respond to God, why did Jesus preach “repent and believe the gospel”?


Mark 1

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[Genez]

You claim that "man has the ability to make choices in favour of good, after he is presented it as an option".
The problem with that view is, Gods Word reveals that it's not true and the truth of the matter is found in -

Genesis 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

According to God, man was created perfectly righteous. But after he ate of the tree, he lost his freedom to choose and instead became a slave to sin and Satan.

You are forgetting?

Noah had the ability to make right choices.
Was he not also a man?

 

[Cameron143]

You are forgetting?

Noah had the ability to make right choices.
Was he not also a man?

A man God granted grace to...but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[Genez]

Genesis 6:5 is referring to the world near the time of Noah’s flood, not humanity of all time periods.

Don't confuse him with the facts..