The book of Job

[reneweddaybyday]

When Job prays to God in the midst of his suffering and asks God to reveal to him his sin, are you saying that Job is saying something stupid?

Job 13:23 (Job to God))
How many are my iniquities and my sins?
Make me know my transgression and my sin.

No! I am saying that God answered Job with terrifying dreams and visions, because Job said so. Job 7:14Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:-------

did God give Job those "terrifying dreams and visions" as you so vociferously claim?

Job was extremely ill ... boils covered him from the soles of his feet to the top of his head ... he was feverish ... he experienced severe itching ... all at the hand of satan (Job 2:7) ... not God. That Job attributes his sorrowful state to God does not mean God afflicted Job. Job 2:7 tells us exactly who was the cause of Job's intense suffering.

you continue to claim Job was filled with pride and your misinterpretation of the text has been proven to be in error.

Elihu claims God gave Job "a vision in the night" in order to "keep back his soul from the pit" ... when you know from the outset that Job was a believer whose soul was already redeemed:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu have an excuse for ignorance of what God said about Job as God did not reveal those words to them.

However, in your case ... how many times does God have to tell you Job was upright ... that Job reverenced God ... that Job eschewed (Hebrew = sûr = turned away from) evil before you will believe Him? God should only have to tell you one time ... but God tells you three times that Job was a believer prior to his having undergone the attacks by satan.

Job knew in his heart of hearts that he would see his Redeemer:

Job 19:25-27

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Does an unbeliever claim that he or she will see the Redeemer with his or her own eyes after worms have destroyed his or her body?


That Job stated "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee" (Job 42:5) does not equal Job not having been a believer prior to satan's attack. What it expresses is the deepening relationship Job had with God after his ordeal.

God tells us in 1 Peter 5:10 how He works within the believer during times of trial ... God perfects, stablishes, strengthens, settles the believer. The believer may or may not be aware of God working within because the believer is so focused on what is going on around him or her. We focus on the physical trial and we are completely oblivious to the spiritual when satan comes around seeking whom he may devour. But our being unaware of God working within does not negate God working within.

.

 

[christophernyc]

No! I am saying that God answered Job with terrifying dreams and visions, because Job said so. Job 7:14Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:-------
And Elihu made it clear. Job 33:14-18 (Elihu speaking.) For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

OK

So...........what then is your explanation for Job 13:23?

Job 13:23 (Job to God))
How many are my iniquities and my sins?
Make me know my transgression and my sin.

How do you explain why a proud person, full of self-righteousness and pride, would actively seek and eagerly ask to be shown his sin?

 

[tttallison]

OK

So...........what then is your explanation for Job 13:23?

Job 13:23 (Job to God))
How many are my iniquities and my sins?
Make me know my transgression and my sin.

How do you explain why a proud person, full of self-righteousness and pride, would actively seek and eagerly ask to be shown his sin?

This is my answer to Job 13:23, why can't you understand it? I am saying that God answered Job with terrifying dreams and visions, because Job said so. Job 7:14Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:-------

And Elihu made it clear. Job 33:14-18 (Elihu speaking.) For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

 

[tttallison]

did God give Job those "terrifying dreams and visions" as you so vociferously claim?

Job was extremely ill ... boils covered him from the soles of his feet to the top of his head ... he was feverish ... he experienced severe itching ... all at the hand of satan (Job 2:7) ... not God. That Job attributes his sorrowful state to God does not mean God afflicted Job. Job 2:7 tells us exactly who was the cause of Job's intense suffering.

you continue to claim Job was filled with pride and your misinterpretation of the text has been proven to be in error.

Elihu claims God gave Job "a vision in the night" in order to "keep back his soul from the pit" ... when you know from the outset that Job was a believer whose soul was already redeemed:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu have an excuse for ignorance of what God said about Job as God did not reveal those words to them.

However, in your case ... how many times does God have to tell you Job was upright ... that Job reverenced God ... that Job eschewed (Hebrew = sûr = turned away from) evil before you will believe Him? God should only have to tell you one time ... but God tells you three times that Job was a believer prior to his having undergone the attacks by satan.

Job knew in his heart of hearts that he would see his Redeemer:

Job 19:25-27

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Does an unbeliever claim that he or she will see the Redeemer with his or her own eyes after worms have destroyed his or her body?


That Job stated "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee" (Job 42:5) does not equal Job not having been a believer prior to satan's attack. What it expresses is the deepening relationship Job had with God after his ordeal.

God tells us in 1 Peter 5:10 how He works within the believer during times of trial ... God perfects, stablishes, strengthens, settles the believer. The believer may or may not be aware of God working within because the believer is so focused on what is going on around him or her. We focus on the physical trial and we are completely oblivious to the spiritual when satan comes around seeking whom he may devour. But our being unaware of God working within does not negate God working within.

.

Job did not have a relationship with God. Job said, Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? Job9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job was a hireling. Under Jewish law hirelings could not partake of the Passover Lamb.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job did not have a relationship with God. Job said, Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Do you know what Job meant when he said "I know it is so of a truth" ?

As far as "how should man be just with God" ... Job acknowledged that no one is righteous before God. Job's question is a correct question to ask his friends in the face of their unwarranted belief that Job was being punished by God for whatever sin they believed Job had committed ... "How shall sinful man be regarded and treated as righteous by his Maker?"

Job9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Are you aware that satan is the god of this world?

As to who gives the earth "into the hand of the wicked" ? ... Job and his friends were completely ignorant of the workings of satan.

We know from God's Word that satan is the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) ... when Adam sinned dominion was delivered to satan (Luke 4:6) and satan puts his minions in positions of power in this world. That God allows this is God's prerogative. We know satan's authority will end at some point so we endure and look to the eternal blessings God promises in His Word.

Job was a hireling.

chapter and verse please.

Under Jewish law hirelings could not partake of the Passover Lamb.

First of all, Job was not Jewish. Job lived prior to the time the children of Israel left Egypt ... the time God gave instruction to Moses concerning the Passover.

Aecondly ... I dealt with your claim almost 6 months ago ... click

.

 

[tttallison]

Do you know what Job meant when he said "I know it is so of a truth" ?

As far as "how should man be just with God" ... Job acknowledged that no one is righteous before God. Job's question is a correct question to ask his friends in the face of their unwarranted belief that Job was being punished by God for whatever sin they believed Job had committed ... "How shall sinful man be regarded and treated as righteous by his Maker?"





Are you aware that satan is the god of this world?

As to who gives the earth "into the hand of the wicked" ? ... Job and his friends were completely ignorant of the workings of satan.

We know from God's Word that satan is the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) ... when Adam sinned dominion was delivered to satan (Luke 4:6) and satan puts his minions in positions of power in this world. That God allows this is God's prerogative. We know satan's authority will end at some point so we endure and look to the eternal blessings God promises in His Word.





chapter and verse please.





First of all, Job was not Jewish. Job lived prior to the time the children of Israel left Egypt ... the time God gave instruction to Moses concerning the Passover.

Aecondly ... I dealt with your claim almost 6 months ago ... click

.

If you were knowledgeable enough to make comments on the book of Job you would know where Job implied that he was a hireling.

I never claimed that Job was Jewish, he was an Edomite. You are wrong about the date of the book.

Why did Job reprove God?

 

[christophernyc]

This is my answer to Job 13:23, why can't you understand it? I am saying that God answered Job with terrifying dreams and visions, because Job said so. Job 7:14Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:-------

And Elihu made it clear. Job 33:14-18 (Elihu speaking.) For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Hahaha….this is not an answer to the question at all.

Why would a proud person, full of self-righteousness and pride (in this case Job, according to you) eagerly ask and actively seek to be shown their sin? Can you explain why such a person would ask for their failings to be revealed to them?

Why would a proud person ask for this? Can you explain?

 

[tttallison]

Hahaha….this is not an answer to the question at all.

Why would a proud person, full of self-righteousness and pride (in this case Job, according to you) eagerly ask and actively seek to be shown their sin? Can you explain why such a person would ask for their failings to be revealed to them?

Why would a proud person ask for this? Can you explain?

Job was so proud of himself that he was challenging God to try and come up with an answer. God said Job was striving with God, instructing God, reproving God, and condemning God.

You have been blinded by the counsel of your own narrative. You have chosen the side of Job against God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you were knowledgeable enough to make comments on the book of Job you would know where Job implied that he was a hireling.

quit playing games and provide chapter and verse for your statement.

tttallison said:​

Job was a hireling.​

You're the one who made the claim ... please provide chapter and verse.

I never claimed that Job was Jewish, he was an Edomite. You are wrong about the date of the book.

You are wrong about the time when Job lived.

I have already provided information from your own source concerning when Job lived:

tttallison said:​

My Jewish Learning put out an article on The Strange Language of The Book of Job. The following are a couple of extracts from it.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

From the article you provided (bold/underline mine):

The story of Job is set long ago in the period of Israel’s patriarchs and matriarchs. The verse describing Job’s extraordinary wealth (1:3) — “His livestock were seven thousand small-cattle and three thousand camels and five hundred yoke of large-cattle and five hundred she-asses, and a very large servantry; that man was greater (in wealth) than all the sons of Qedem”— alludes to the wealth of Isaac, as it is described in Genesis 26:13–14. Not only are the terms for “cattle” (miqne) and “great (in wealth)” (gadol) shared, but the unique terms for “servantry” (avudda) occurs in only these two verses.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

You posted this excerpt from the article ...​

tttallison said:​

"Moreover, the names of Job’s three companions are all derived either directly (in the case of Eliphaz the Teimanite) or by a small adaptation (such as Bildad from Bedo and Zophar from Zepho) from the list of Edomites in Genesis 36. The name “Job,” in post-exilic times, is identified with the Edomite name “Jovav,” which appears in the same chapter."​

but you left out this information (bold/underline mine):

Moreover, the names of Job’s three companions are all derived either directly (in the case of Eliphaz the Teimanite) or by a small adaptation (such as Bildad from Bedo and Zophar from Zepho) from the list of Edomites in Genesis 36. The name “Job,” in post-exilic times, is identified with the Edomite name “Jovav,” which appears in the same chapter. All of this serves to set the book, from the perspective even of its author, in a time long ago and a place far away.​

We had that discussion back in May click ... you never responded to my comments concerning your own source telling you that Job lived long ago ... before the children of Israel were called out from Egypt ... before the term "Jew" or "Jewish" was ever used in Scripture.

Why did Job reprove God?

why do you not believe God?

.

 

[tttallison]

quit playing games and provide chapter and verse for your statement.

tttallison said:​

Job was a hireling.​

You're the one who made the claim ... please provide chapter and verse.





You are wrong about the time when Job lived.

I have already provided information from your own source concerning when Job lived:

tttallison said:​

My Jewish Learning put out an article on The Strange Language of The Book of Job. The following are a couple of extracts from it.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

From the article you provided (bold/underline mine):​

​

The story of Job is set long ago in the period of Israel’s patriarchs and matriarchs. The verse describing Job’s extraordinary wealth (1:3) — “His livestock were seven thousand small-cattle and three thousand camels and five hundred yoke of large-cattle and five hundred she-asses, and a very large servantry; that man was greater (in wealth) than all the sons of Qedem”— alludes to the wealth of Isaac, as it is described in Genesis 26:13–14. Not only are the terms for “cattle” (miqne) and “great (in wealth)” (gadol) shared, but the unique terms for “servantry” (avudda) occurs in only these two verses.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

You posted this excerpt from the article ...​

tttallison said:​

"Moreover, the names of Job’s three companions are all derived either directly (in the case of Eliphaz the Teimanite) or by a small adaptation (such as Bildad from Bedo and Zophar from Zepho) from the list of Edomites in Genesis 36. The name “Job,” in post-exilic times, is identified with the Edomite name “Jovav,” which appears in the same chapter."​

​

but you left out this information (bold/underline mine):​

​

Moreover, the names of Job’s three companions are all derived either directly (in the case of Eliphaz the Teimanite) or by a small adaptation (such as Bildad from Bedo and Zophar from Zepho) from the list of Edomites in Genesis 36. The name “Job,” in post-exilic times, is identified with the Edomite name “Jovav,” which appears in the same chapter. All of this serves to set the book, from the perspective even of its author, in a time long ago and a place far away.​

We had that discussion back in May click ... you never responded to my comments concerning your own source telling you that Job lived long ago ... before the children of Israel were called out from Egypt ... before the term "Jew" or "Jewish" was ever used in Scripture.





why do you not believe God?

.

I never said I agreed with everything in “My Jewish Learning”.

Job and Jobab are two different words. Job means hated, and Jobab means desert.

Most scholars agree that the words in the book of Job are consistent with a late timeframe. No earlier than David.

As for “qeḏem”, it is a location. In Zechariah 14:4 we see this word for a location where the Lord’s feet will stand in a future event.

The earliest we see any mention of Job is in the book of Ezekiel. He is mentioned in relationship to Noah and Daniel. The sequence the writer used was to place Job last. Daniel was contemporary with Ezekiel. I believe Job was also contemporary with Ezekiel. Elihu’s father was a Busite as was Ezekiel’s father.

Why I feel the book of Job is late is from the fact that Job received the same cup of woe as Israel received. In says in Lamentations that the cup of woe would be passed from the daughter of Zion to the daughter of Edom. This cup was passed to Zion in the late 5th Century BC.

The relationship between the book of Job and the writings of Jeremiah​

There is only three places where the land of Uz is mentioned in the bible. One is Job, one is Jeremiah, and one is Lamentations 4:21. Only in Lamentations and Job are the residents specified. In Lamentations we are told that it is the land of Edom(Esau). In Job we are told that Job is the greatest man in Uz. In Lamentations we are told that a cup of woe is passed from Jacob(Zion) to Esau(Edom).

As we compare the book of Job with Lamentations we see that the woes of Israel run parallel with the woes of Job.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me.
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Lamentations 3:2 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Job 19:8 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
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Lamentations 3:3 Surely against me is he turned; he turns his hand against me all the day.

Job 30:21 You have become cruel to me; with your strong hand you oppose yourself against me.
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Lamentations 3:4 My flesh and my skin has he made old; he hath broken my bones.

Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me and my bones are burned with heat.
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Lamentations 3:5 He has builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travel.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaves my reins asunder, and does not spare; he pours out my gall upon the ground.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lamentations 3:6 He has set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.

Job 19:8 He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
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Lamentations 3:7 He has hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he has made my chain heavy.

Job 3:23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in.
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Lamentations 3:8 Also when I cry and shout, he shuts out my prayer.

Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.
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Continued------

 

[tttallison]

Lamentations 3:9 He has enclosed my ways with hewn stone, he has made my paths crooked.

Job 30:13 They mar my path, they set forward my calamity, they have no helper.
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Lamentations 3:10 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

Job 10:16 --. You hunt me as a fierce lion: and again you show yourself marvelous upon me.
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Lamentations 3:11 He has turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he has made me desolate.

Job 16:7 But now he has made me weary: you have made desolate all my company.
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Lamentations 3:12 He has bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lamentations 3:13 He caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lamentations 3:14 I was derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

Job 30:1,9 But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock.--And now I am their song, yes, I am their byword.
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Lamentations 3:15 He has filled me with bitterness; he has made me drunk with wormwood.

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but fills me with bitterness.
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Lamentations 3:16 He has also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he has covered me with ashes.

Job 30:19 He has cast me into the mire, and I am become like dust and ashes.
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Lamentations 3:17 And you have removed my soul far off from peace: I forgot prosperity.

Job 7:15 So that my Soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lamentations 3:18 And I said, my strength and my hope is perished from the Lord.

Job 19:10 He has destroyed me on every side, and I am gone; and mine hope has he removed like a tree.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I never said I agreed with everything in “My Jewish Learning”.

Job and Jobab are two different words. Job means hated, and Jobab means desert.

Most scholars agree that the words in the book of Job are consistent with a late timeframe. No earlier than David.

Here is what is pointed out in your source ...

The narrative in prose that frames the book is good biblical Hebrew, albeit of the later (post-Babylonian exile) variety​

As I pointed out from your source ... it was written later (post-Babylonian exile) about an earlier time in which Job lived ...

"All of this serves to set the book, from the perspective even of its author, in a time long ago and a place far away."​

and fyi, the word Job is translated from the Hebrew word'îyôḇ which means hated (i.e. persecuted) and God tells you who hated and persecuted Job [hint: satan].

The earliest we see any mention of Job is in the book of Ezekiel. He is mentioned in relationship to Noah and Daniel. The sequence the writer used was to place Job last. Daniel was contemporary with Ezekiel. I believe Job was also contemporary with Ezekiel.

I responded to this claim by you back in May.

reneweddaybyday said:​

Here you imply that the names Noah, Daniel, and Job are listed chronologically (Noah lived before Daniel ... Job must have lived after Daniel). However, the order of the sequence may not be chronological. Please consider ...​

​

In the case of Noah ... the whole world was destroyed, yet Noah's family was saved on the basis of Noah's faith (Heb 11:7).​

​

In the case of Daniel ... Daniel and his friends (Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah) were saved from execution when Daniel interpreted the king's dream (Dan 2:13).​

​

In the case of Job ... Job delivered only himself ... Job's children were slain (Job 1:18-19).​

Do you read the responses to issues you continuously and repeatedly bring up? ... no one knows if you read and consider responses to your claims because you never respond to the points brought up which counter your assertions. You just keep regurgitating your allegations without taking into consideration the information I and others have provided. You even ignore what your own source tells you.

Why I feel the book of Job is late is from the fact that Job received the same cup of woe as Israel received.

nope ... God tells you specifically that Job suffered at the hand of satan (Job 1:12 and Job 2:7). satan attacked Job because Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3).

Israel was chastened because of transgressions and sins (Lamentations 1:5; Lamentations 1:8).

.

 

[tttallison]

Here is what is pointed out in your source ...

The narrative in prose that frames the book is good biblical Hebrew, albeit of the later (post-Babylonian exile) variety​

As I pointed out from your source ... it was written later (post-Babylonian exile) about an earlier time in which Job lived ...

"All of this serves to set the book, from the perspective even of its author, in a time long ago and a place far away."​

and fyi, the word Job is translated from the Hebrew word'îyôḇ which means hated (i.e. persecuted) and God tells you who hated and persecuted Job [hint: satan].





I responded to this claim by you back in May.

reneweddaybyday said:​

Here you imply that the names Noah, Daniel, and Job are listed chronologically (Noah lived before Daniel ... Job must have lived after Daniel). However, the order of the sequence may not be chronological. Please consider ...​

​

In the case of Noah ... the whole world was destroyed, yet Noah's family was saved on the basis of Noah's faith (Heb 11:7).​

​

In the case of Daniel ... Daniel and his friends (Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah) were saved from execution when Daniel interpreted the king's dream (Dan 2:13).​

​

In the case of Job ... Job delivered only himself ... Job's children were slain (Job 1:18-19).​

Do you read the responses to issues you continuously and repeatedly bring up? ... no one knows if you read and consider responses to your claims because you never respond to the points brought up which counter your assertions. You just keep regurgitating your allegations without taking into consideration the information I and others have provided. You even ignore what your own source tells you.





nope ... God tells you specifically that Job suffered at the hand of satan (Job 1:12 and Job 2:7). satan attacked Job because Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3).

Israel was chastened because of transgressions and sins (Lamentations 1:5; Lamentations 1:8).

.

The difference between Job and Israel and David is that Israel and David confessed their sin, and Job thought he was righteous and God was not.

Do you believe Job's own right hand saved him?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The difference between Job and Israel and David is that Israel and David confessed their sin, and Job thought he was righteous and God was not.

really?

Jeremiah 3:8-10 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.


Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Please provide chapter and verse showing that Israel and/or Judah turned to God with their whole heart ... not "feignedly" ... between the time Jeremiah 3 and Matthew 23 were written.

And I'm not referring to the faithful remnants or individuals who repented at various times ... I'm talking about the nation as a whole ... turning to God with their whole heart without turning away again.

Do you believe Job's own right hand saved him?

see ? ... there you go ... off on the same old same old without considering what others have been telling you all along. your repeated question has been asked and answered in the pages of this thread.

Why should anyone bother with you when you won't even acknowledge that your own source ... provided by you ... tells you truth and your flippant reply is "I never said I agreed with everything in “My Jewish Learning”. " What a sham!

Now ... how about you provide that chapter and verse concerning your statement:

tttallison said:​

Job was a hireling.​

.

 

[tttallison]

really?

Jeremiah 3:8-10 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.


Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Please provide chapter and verse showing that Israel and/or Judah turned to God with their whole heart ... not "feignedly" ... between the time Jeremiah 3 and Matthew 23 were written.

And I'm not referring to the faithful remnants or individuals who repented at various times ... I'm talking about the nation as a whole ... turning to God with their whole heart without turning away again.






see ? ... there you go ... off on the same old same old without considering what others have been telling you all along. your repeated question has been asked and answered in the pages of this thread.

Why should anyone bother with you when you won't even acknowledge that your own source ... provided by you ... tells you truth and your flippant reply is "I never said I agreed with everything in “My Jewish Learning”. " What a sham!

Now ... how about you provide that chapter and verse concerning your statement:

tttallison said:​

Job was a hireling.​

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I never said Israel turned to God whole heartedly. I said they acknowledged their sin.

Actually Jeremiah confessed for Israel. Lam 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

Daniel also confessed for Israel. Dan 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

You still haven't answered with a yes or no as to whether Job could save himself.

A hireling can also be considered a mercenary, for he can have more than one master. God asked Job if he was making a permanent covenant with the king over all the children of pride. Job had two masters. Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Job 7:1-3 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling? As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work: So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me.

Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I never said Israel turned to God whole heartedly. I said they acknowledged their sin.

Actually Jeremiah confessed for Israel. Lam 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

last verse written in Lamentations:

Lamentations 5:22 But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.

Daniel also confessed for Israel. Dan 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

There has always been a remnant in Israel who prayed faithfully to God.

fyi ... Daniel was taken captive in 605 BC. King Cyrus allowed Jewish exiles to return to Israel in 538 BC. Daniel did not return ... he remained in Babylon/Persia.

You still haven't answered with a yes or no as to whether Job could save himself.

such a frivolous question ... no need to answer ... time to move along.

A hireling can also be considered a mercenary, for he can have more than one master. God asked Job if he was making a permanent covenant with the king over all the children of pride.

nope. God asked Job if leviathan could make a covenant with Job ... we have gone over this verse in the past. You and I are not in agreement ... no need to revisit at this point in time.

Job had two masters.

God tells you three times Job was a believer who reverenced God:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

This is part of the record the Lord Jesus Christ taught the multitudes. Is it your claim that the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking concerning Job here?

Job 7:1-3 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling? As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work: So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me.

Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

Do you know anything about figures of speech? Figures of speech are literary devices and Scripture is full of them.

Look up simile ... metaphor ... personification ... hyperbole ... metonymy ... there are many figures of speech identified in Scripture.

Job 7:1-3 ... Job 14:6 "like the days of an hireling" ... "as an hireling" - these are a similes

Job 14:6 ... first of all, in Job 14:1 Job indicates he is speaking of mankind in general ... secondly, look at Job 14:2 ... are you going to assume Job was a flower because Job is speaking figuratively?

Job 3:19 - in this verse, Job reveals that death removes all human ranking ... both small and great ... kings, counsellors (vs 14), princes (vs 15), infants (vs 16), the wicked, the oppressor (vs 17), prisoners (vs 18), servants, masters (vs 19). In death, all are equal.

.

 

[tttallison]

God tells you three times Job was a believer who reverenced God:

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Chapter and verse please!

 

[tttallison]

Job 14:6 ... first of all, in Job 14:1 Job indicates he is speaking of mankind in general ... secondly, look at Job 14:2 ... are you going to assume Job was a flower because Job is speaking figuratively?

.

So you are the one that decides if Job is speaking figuratively, or if he really means it?

 

[tttallison]

nope. God asked Job if leviathan could make a covenant with Job ... we have gone over this verse in the past. You and I are not in agreement ... no need to revisit at this point in time.

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If I asked you if you always beat your dog until it bleeds, would you surmise that I believed you beat your dog?

 

[tttallison]

This is part of the record the Lord Jesus Christ taught the multitudes. Is it your claim that the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking concerning Job here?

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My claim is that Job was serving two masters.