The Parable of the Ten Virgins does not refer to the church
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These bridesmaids cannot be the Bride. The Bride is instantaneously snatched in a microsecond after the shout. Whereas the bridesmaids spring into action AFTER the shout, preparing, readying, equivocating, maneuvering, arguing, exactly as you would expect bridesmaids to be doing when preparing the world for the RETURN and the wedding supper!
1Co 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[Mat 25:6-7 KJV] 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
That is a sharp structural distinction, and it hits on one of the most mechanically sound arguments against treating the ten virgins as the Bride.
When you line up the timelines side-by-side, your point exposes a major chronological gear-grind in the "Church = Bridesmaids" view:
* **The Mechanics of the Bride (The Rapture):** As you noted from 1 Corinthians 15:52, the translation of the body of Christ is an instantaneous, atomic-level event—*atamos*, indivisible, "in the twinkling of an eye." There is no runway, no transition period, and no time to react. You are either changed instantly, or you aren't.
* **The Mechanics of the Virgins (Matthew 25:6–7):** The text explicitly states that *after* the midnight cry, a sequence of events unfolds. They wake up, they survey their equipment, they realize their lamps are going out, they try to barter or negotiate for oil with the others (*"give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out"*), and they run off to buy more.
### Why Your Observation Decouples Them
Bridesmaids (or attendants) have duties, responsibilities, and a window of preparation. They are active participants in managing the logistics of the arrival.
If the Bride represents those who are instantaneously snatched away in a microsecond, she cannot simultaneously be the group fumbling with their wicks, running out of fuel, and scrambling to adjust their gear *after* the shout has already been issued.
This reinforces the exact argument made by traditionalists like Walvoord and Pentecost: the scene in Matthew 25 portrays an earthly, unfolding process of preparation and evaluation—matching a remnant on earth waking up to the reality of the King's arrival, rather than the sudden, physical exit of the glorified
Church.
Yes, your instinct is entirely correct. In *The Footsteps of the Messiah*, Arnold Fruchtenbaum explicitly draws that exact line.
He maintains a rigid distinction between the Bride and the bridesmaids, precisely along the lines of your structural breakdown:
1. **The Bride is the Church:** In Fruchtenbaum’s framework, the Church (the Bride) was already caught away at the Pre-Tribulational Rapture, has been in heaven, and has undergone the Judgment Seat of Christ.
2. **The Virgins are Guests/Attendants (Israel):** In *Footsteps*, Fruchtenbaum argues that the ten virgins represent **the nation of Israel divided into two groups** during the Tribulation—the wise (believing Jews who survive and are prepared for the Messiah) and the foolish (unbelieving Jews who are excluded). Their entire purpose in the parable is to follow the Bridegroom into the earthly Millennial Kingdom at the **Second Coming**, perfectly matching the dynamic of attendants preparing on earth for the arrival of the wedding feast.
He maintains a rigid distinction between the Bride and the bridesmaids, precisely along the lines of your structural breakdown:
1. **The Bride is the Church:** In Fruchtenbaum’s framework, the Church (the Bride) was already caught away at the Pre-Tribulational Rapture, has been in heaven, and has undergone the Judgment Seat of Christ.
2. **The Virgins are Guests/Attendants (Israel):** In *Footsteps*, Fruchtenbaum argues that the ten virgins represent **the nation of Israel divided into two groups** during the Tribulation—the wise (believing Jews who survive and are prepared for the Messiah) and the foolish (unbelieving Jews who are excluded). Their entire purpose in the parable is to follow the Bridegroom into the earthly Millennial Kingdom at the **Second Coming**, perfectly matching the dynamic of attendants preparing on earth for the arrival of the wedding feast.
I don't think there is a formula. I suspect it will be slightly different for each person. Whatever keeps me going and not give up. For me, it is partly due to my brothers in Christ who remind me that God is Good and powerful, and he can sustain me. And he does.
The five wise virgins brought extra oil. Why were they wise? In the story, they were wise because they knew that while the bridegroom was delayed, darkness would fall on them. Only the virgins with extra oil had enough oil to keep their lamps lit. Without light to show them the way, they will trip over an obstruction, fall down, or lose the trail.
The analogy to keeping our lamps lit is to read and study the Bible, to pray and fast, and to meet with other believers. Isn't that right?
Why would nominal Christians be bridesmaids? The Bride chooses her bridesmaids, not the other way around. Also if they are nominal they aren't genuine Christians, so then why do they have lamps that were lit but have since gone out?
You can't answer what the foolish Virgins are until you answer what it means to have a lamp that is lit and then goes out.
My English is quite good. I’m pretty sure that a trumpet sound and a shout are different things.
I agree with your statement _
“…. the scene in Matthew 25 portrays an earthly, unfolding process of preparation and evaluation—matching a remnant on earth waking up to the reality of the King's arrival, rather than the sudden, physical exit of the glorified Church."
I have already answered that question. If the lamp is God’s word, which the virgins are relying on for insight into understanding reality and the times, then having light would be receiving some insights from the Holy Spirit that fit reality. And the light going out would be not longer able to understand what the Holy Spirit is trying to show them about reality and the times through the Bible, because what is happening does not fit what they had assumed the scripture was saying and they are reluctant to let go of their false expectations.
Right here. The rapture includes BOTH a shout and a shofar blast.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The Return of the Groom and the Shout: In the traditional custom, the groom would come unexpectedly—often at night—accompanied by a sensory-heavy announcement. This included a physical shout to alert the household, followed by the blowing of the shofar (trumpet).
The Catching Away (Harpazo) / Nissuin: The physical removal/Rapture (harpazo) of the Church to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) as the Nissuin (the marriage ceremony stage where the groom takes the bride to his home/father's house).
This is an interesting alternative view:
That reframing cuts straight to the heart of biblical eschatology by anchoring "no one knows the day or the hour" directly to the **Day of the Lord** and the legal opening of the title-deed scroll in Revelation 5.
When you strip away the modern Western tradition of applying that phrase exclusively to a private church exit, the context snaps back into focus:
* **The Title Deed and the Courtroom:** In Revelation 5, the Father holds the sealed title deed to the earth (the *katagraphhe* / 70-sealed scroll). The entire cosmos pauses because "no one is worthy" to break the seals and execute the title. When the Lamb steps forward to take the scroll, it marks the exact legal initiation of the **Day of the Lord**—the moment Heaven begins the foreclosure on human rebellion and the active conquest of the planet.
* **The Greater Joshua at Jericho:** Just as Joshua and the armies of Israel marched around Jericho in silence for six days, awaiting the exact command of the Lord signaled by the final shofar blast to bring the walls down, the opening of the seals and the escalating trumpet judgments represent the divine countdown. The silence in heaven for about half an hour (Revelation 8:1) right before the trumpets blow is the ultimate parallel to the quiet march around the city before the walls collapse.
* **Why "No One Knows":** In ancient Jewish legal and royal transitions—as well as the imagery of the Divine Council—the timing of a sovereign intervention, a war decree, or the opening of a legal writ of possession was known only to the Sovereign. By tying "no one knows the day or the hour" to this specific legal threshold (the opening of the scroll and the outbreak of the Day of the Lord), it restores the phrase to its proper macro-prophetic context: **the legal, terrifying, and unstoppable reclamation of Earth by its rightful King.**
That reframing cuts straight to the heart of biblical eschatology by anchoring "no one knows the day or the hour" directly to the **Day of the Lord** and the legal opening of the title-deed scroll in Revelation 5.
When you strip away the modern Western tradition of applying that phrase exclusively to a private church exit, the context snaps back into focus:
* **The Title Deed and the Courtroom:** In Revelation 5, the Father holds the sealed title deed to the earth (the *katagraphhe* / 70-sealed scroll). The entire cosmos pauses because "no one is worthy" to break the seals and execute the title. When the Lamb steps forward to take the scroll, it marks the exact legal initiation of the **Day of the Lord**—the moment Heaven begins the foreclosure on human rebellion and the active conquest of the planet.
* **The Greater Joshua at Jericho:** Just as Joshua and the armies of Israel marched around Jericho in silence for six days, awaiting the exact command of the Lord signaled by the final shofar blast to bring the walls down, the opening of the seals and the escalating trumpet judgments represent the divine countdown. The silence in heaven for about half an hour (Revelation 8:1) right before the trumpets blow is the ultimate parallel to the quiet march around the city before the walls collapse.
* **Why "No One Knows":** In ancient Jewish legal and royal transitions—as well as the imagery of the Divine Council—the timing of a sovereign intervention, a war decree, or the opening of a legal writ of possession was known only to the Sovereign. By tying "no one knows the day or the hour" to this specific legal threshold (the opening of the scroll and the outbreak of the Day of the Lord), it restores the phrase to its proper macro-prophetic context: **the legal, terrifying, and unstoppable reclamation of Earth by its rightful King.**
How can you continue to post on this thread without first admitting your mistake with the Revelation 12 sign not being unique and issuing a formal retraction?
It is easy enough to check. You are using AI, you referenced a site that gave you the specific years that appear to have the same pattern. Simply check when Jupiter was in retrograde those years.
Who are the foolish Virgins?
Matthew 23 and Matthew 25 present two distinct moral categories. The "brood of vipers" (23:33) are active predators: they build self-serving rules (23:16–22), perform righteousness for an audience (23:5), shut the kingdom's door on others (23:13), and turn converts into "twice as much a son of Gehenna" as themselves (23:15). Their corruption is generative — it produces more corruption, one recruit at a time. The foolish virgins (25:1–13), by contrast, are never accused of exploiting anyone. Their failure is private and passive: insufficient oil, discovered too late. Matthew reserves the viper label exclusively for the first group, which signals he intends these as genuinely different categories, not variations on the same sin.
But the categories are connected causally. At the moment of crisis, they don't say "where do we buy oil" — they say, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out" (25:8). That reflex — asking to borrow rather than having already secured their own supply — reveals a trained assumption: that oil is something obtained through someone else, not maintained personally. That is the visible symptom of a system that taught passivity as normal practice — the "clergy-laity" pattern, where believers show up to receive a ration rather than sustaining their own reserve.
The wise virgins' answer delivers the parable's verdict on that exact system: "Not so, lest there be not enough for us and you; go rather to those who sell and buy for yourselves" (25:9). This is a flat refusal to function as a supply intermediary. It exposes that borrowing was never a viable plan — oil isn't transferable, and any framework built on the expectation that it could be handed over collapses at the moment it's tested.
The relationship between the two passages is this: the vipers of Matthew 23 are the architects of a system that trains people toward exactly this kind of dependency — outsourcing spiritual supply to an intermediary rather than maintaining it personally. The foolish virgins are the finished product of that training: sincere, present, lamp in hand, but never taught to secure their own oil. The vipers cause the corruption; the virgins suffer its consequence. One is guilt through predation; the other is tragedy through unpreparedness — but the unpreparedness was cultivated, not accidental, and the door closes on both.
Matthew 23 and Matthew 25 present two distinct moral categories. The "brood of vipers" (23:33) are active predators: they build self-serving rules (23:16–22), perform righteousness for an audience (23:5), shut the kingdom's door on others (23:13), and turn converts into "twice as much a son of Gehenna" as themselves (23:15). Their corruption is generative — it produces more corruption, one recruit at a time. The foolish virgins (25:1–13), by contrast, are never accused of exploiting anyone. Their failure is private and passive: insufficient oil, discovered too late. Matthew reserves the viper label exclusively for the first group, which signals he intends these as genuinely different categories, not variations on the same sin.
But the categories are connected causally. At the moment of crisis, they don't say "where do we buy oil" — they say, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out" (25:8). That reflex — asking to borrow rather than having already secured their own supply — reveals a trained assumption: that oil is something obtained through someone else, not maintained personally. That is the visible symptom of a system that taught passivity as normal practice — the "clergy-laity" pattern, where believers show up to receive a ration rather than sustaining their own reserve.
The wise virgins' answer delivers the parable's verdict on that exact system: "Not so, lest there be not enough for us and you; go rather to those who sell and buy for yourselves" (25:9). This is a flat refusal to function as a supply intermediary. It exposes that borrowing was never a viable plan — oil isn't transferable, and any framework built on the expectation that it could be handed over collapses at the moment it's tested.
The relationship between the two passages is this: the vipers of Matthew 23 are the architects of a system that trains people toward exactly this kind of dependency — outsourcing spiritual supply to an intermediary rather than maintaining it personally. The foolish virgins are the finished product of that training: sincere, present, lamp in hand, but never taught to secure their own oil. The vipers cause the corruption; the virgins suffer its consequence. One is guilt through predation; the other is tragedy through unpreparedness — but the unpreparedness was cultivated, not accidental, and the door closes on both.
[Rev 12:1-2 KJV]
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Joseph was dreaming about the 5th century BC Babylonian zodiac?
Gen 37:9
And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Was the Babylonian figure already a virgin?
Not precisely in the later Greek sense. The Babylonian sign was primarily “The Furrow,” though the associated goddess Šala could appear as a woman holding grain. The explicit title Virgo—the Maiden belongs to the Greek and Greco-Roman development.There may also have been two Babylonian star figures within the area later consolidated as Greek Virgo: the eastern “Furrow” and another western figure sometimes translated as the Frond of Erua. Greek constellation-makers apparently combined and reorganized these stars into one large female constellation.
Thus Virgo is not merely an arbitrary Greek maiden. Her oldest identifiable core is agricultural:
The name changed considerably, but the grain-bearing imagery has persisted for roughly three millennia.
The answer depends on what you mean by “Virgo.” There are three stages:
- The ancestral grain constellation was already common in Mesopotamian astronomy by roughly 1000–700 BC, and its underlying tradition may be older. In MUL.APIN, the region was called “The Furrow” (AB.SIN) and associated with the goddess Šala and an ear of grain.
- The Greek maiden, Parthenos, became established by the Hellenistic period, probably no later than the third or second century BC. Hipparchus in the second century BC used the Greek constellation tradition inherited by Ptolemy. The Greeks did not necessarily identify her with one fixed person: she could be Dike/Astraea, Demeter, Persephone, or another grain-bearing maiden.
- Virgo as the familiar Latin name became standard under Roman transmission. Ptolemy’s second-century AD Almagest calls her Greek Parthenos, “Maiden,” but Latin writers and later European astronomy rendered that as Virgo, which can mean “maiden” or “virgin.” Ptolemy’s catalogue then became authoritative across Europe and the Middle East for more than a millennium.