The Parable of the Ten Virgins does not refer to the church

[cv5]

What is the Bride doing outside of her father’s house, waiting for the Groom so she can accompany her Groom to her house where she is also waiting. How can teh same person be in two places at the same time? Both in the Father’s house and also on the streets outside the Father’s house ?

Indeed, the Bride is already in the Father's house at the time of the 10 bridesmaids parable.

And the bridesmaids of Matthew 25 ARE NOT enjoying anything like a honeymoon at the Fathers house AFTER THE SHOUT. This obvious fact destroys any ridiculous notion that this is some kind of rapture scenario.

No, but rather they are busy doing prep work for the soon arrival of the now fully wedded Couple. Furthermore, the foolish are ejected from the wedding supper altogether!

And there you have it @Psalm1 @ZNP game set match case closed!

 

[ZNP]

Indeed, the Bride is already in the Father's house at the time of the 10 bridesmaids parable.

And the bridesmaids of Matthew 25 ARE NOT enjoying anything like a honeymoon at the Fathers house AFTER THE SHOUT. This obvious fact destroys any ridiculous notion that this is some kind of rapture scenario.

No, but rather they are busy doing prep work for the soon arrival of the now fully wedded Couple. Furthermore, the foolish are ejected from the wedding supper altogether!

And there you have it @Psalm1 @ZNP game set match case closed!

Then why do they say "the bridegroom cometh" and why have the bridesmaids fallen asleep waiting for his coming? Why do they come at midnight?

The story clearly depicts a midnight procession where the Bridegroom comes to get the bride because he has prepared a place for them and the ten bridesmaids have the job of lighting the way in the night with the torches.

The more you two talk the more I realize it is a complete waste of time talking with you two.

 

[ZNP]

I finally understand why the wise virgins tell the foolish ones they have to go and buy for themselves and then why when they do show up the Lord says "I don't know you".

It has become crystal clear in this thread that it is useless trying to share with people who absolutely will not examine the parable themselves but insist on using the message of some Phd from a decade ago or even several decades ago.

I also get why Jesus tells them "I don't know you". When they were told to "buy the oil for themselves" they thought that meant go check out the commentaries, rather than take the scripture and pray over it.

The wise weren't being stingy, they were speaking the truth, you have to buy the oil for yourself. The foolish don't know how to do that, all they know how to do is to borrow someone else's teaching. Of course AI has greatly amplified this problem.

The wise also say "there might not be enough for them if the foolish borrow their oil". I get that too. The wise understands that revelation comes from the entire body of Christ, we need everyone digging into the word, and so they get insights from one another that help them in their own study of the word. The foolish are not like that at all, they think they have all the answers, self assured they have subscribed to the best Phd on the subject. The wise understand this process of digging into the word is reciprocal and that they are not going to get any reciprocation from the foolish virgins who only know how to borrow someone else's labor.

 

[cv5]

I finally understand why the wise virgins tell the foolish ones they have to go and buy for themselves and then why when they do show up the Lord says "I don't know you".

It has become crystal clear in this thread that it is useless trying to share with people who absolutely will not examine the parable themselves but insist on using the message of some Phd from a decade ago or even several decades ago.

I also get why Jesus tells them "I don't know you". When they were told to "buy the oil for themselves" they thought that meant go check out the commentaries, rather than take the scripture and pray over it.

The wise weren't being stingy, they were speaking the truth, you have to buy the oil for yourself. The foolish don't know how to do that, all they know how to do is to borrow someone else's teaching. Of course AI has greatly amplified this problem.

The wise also say "there might not be enough for them if the foolish borrow their oil". I get that too. The wise understands that revelation comes from the entire body of Christ, we need everyone digging into the word, and so they get insights from one another that help them in their own study of the word. The foolish are not like that at all, they think they have all the answers, self assured they have subscribed to the best Phd on the subject. The wise understand this process of digging into the word is reciprocal and that they are not going to get any reciprocation from the foolish virgins who only know how to borrow someone else's labor.

You finally understand?
No not really.

Sorry fake sorry.....

 

[cv5]

Then why do they say "the bridegroom cometh" and why have the bridesmaids fallen asleep waiting for his coming? Why do they come at midnight?

The story clearly depicts a midnight procession where the Bridegroom comes to get the bride because he has prepared a place for them and the ten bridesmaids have the job of lighting the way in the night with the torches.

The more you two talk the more I realize it is a complete waste of time talking with you two.

Why were they not raptured at the instant of the shout?

Because they are BRIDESMAIDS who have work to do and are NOT on anything like a honeymoon.

You are 100% correct: at the Rapture, the Bride is removed instantaneously.

There is no lingering on Earth, no falling asleep waiting for midnight, and no scrambling to buy oil.

Fruchtenbaum reconciles this disconnect by stating that the Parable of the Ten Virgins does not happen at the Rapture. He completely separates the Rapture from the events of Matthew 25 by a span of seven years.
Here is how his timeline removes the problem:

1. The Rapture (Instant Removal)
The Action: The Bride (the Church) is instantaneously caught up to Heaven.

The Bridesmaids: There are no "10 virgins" in this scene. The Bride does not linger with anyone; she is simply gone in the blink of an eye.

2. The 7-Year Gap (The Tribulation)
In Heaven: The Bride is with Christ undergoing the heavenly marriage ceremony.

On Earth: The 7-year Tribulation is happening. During this time, a new group of people (specifically Jewish survivors, in his view) are living through the judgments. Some come to faith, while others do not.

3. The Second Coming (The 10 Virgins)
The Action: Seven years later, Christ returns to Earth to establish His Kingdom. He brings His Bride with Him.

The Bridesmaids: The 10 virgins are the people who are already on Earth having survived the Tribulation. They aren't waiting to be Raptured; they are waiting on Earth for the Groom to land from Heaven.

 

[PaulThomson]

What are you talking about?

You said that the virgins are both bridesmaids and priests. But priest are the church which is the Bride

So then, if the parable of the ten virgins does not refer to the church who does it refer to? I would say it refers to the whole body of the priests. All believers are priests to God. Our job as priests is to lead others to the Lord, or in this case to the wedding feast. Our job is to serve the bride of Christ, the church. Half of these priests are prepared for this task, half aren't. The full body of the priesthood was 288, and so the half that are ready to guide believers to the wedding feast during the seven year tribulation would be 144 virgins, or in the case at the end of the age, 144,000 virgins.

If the church is all believers, and the church is the Bride, and all believers are priests, and the virgins are all those who are priests, who is left to be the Bride that the 10 virgins are attending? If the virgins are only some of the priests, i.e. some of the church, what makes those church members so different from the rest of the church that they are not the Bride in the parable. If the Bride is one of the virgins, would that mean that all of the church falls asleep?

 

[ZNP]

You finally understand?
No not really.

Sorry fake sorry.....

I have skipped all of your AI generated garbage posts, but I think your points are simply this:

1. We must use the Galilean practice as the context for understanding this parable (I agree)

2. In this practice the wedding banquet is on the seventh day

3. Being locked out of the wedding banquet is what takes place on the seventh day, the last year of the seven year tribulation

4. Therefore to be locked out is proof that you are not saved

5. So then we must look at Matthew 25 in context with Matthew 24, this wedding procession is during the seven year tribulation

6. It is about the Jews.

Now if you could address that understanding without a bunch of AI generated garbage that is fine. I also think that the gospel of Matthew focuses on the Jews and since this parable is unique to the gospel of Matthew I agree that you have to read this parable as having a special focus on the salvation of the Jews as a nation.

So although I have looked at this parable as being specifically for the salvation of the Jews as a nation, I have come to a different conclusion.

1. The word of God is a two edged sword, so even if this should be read as being specifically for the salvation of the Jews as a nation, at the same time it is something that is good for teaching and exhortation to all believers.

2. The midnight procession lit by torches that leads to the wedding feast can refer specifically to the 70th week, but it can also refer to the entire church age.

3. 10 Virgins is not a complete number of all believers, that number would be 12, but it is a complete number of something, a subset of all believers. These are the servants of the Lord who are there to help guide the believers to the wedding feast.

4. These servants are divided into two equal groups, one is wise, they do what the Lord commands, and they carry out this function. The other is foolish, they don't do what the Lord commands and they don't carry out this function. The only group of "wise" Virgins who fit this description of lighting the way for the Jews to lead them to the wedding feast are the 144,000 in the book of Revelation referring to Jude quoting Enoch about the Lord coming with thousands of thousands. This number, 144, is half of the 288 priestly offices that are mentioned in Chronicles.

5. You cannot refer to unbelievers who are dead in their sins and offenses as "foolish" because they didn't prepare. No one would expect a dead person to "prepare". Instead Matthew 7 explains the situation far better. They heard the Lord speak, they are servants of the Lord, but they were foolish because they built their house, their ministry, their service on sand. A sand grain is a mini rock. Jesus Christ is the rock, they didn't dig down to the rock rather they built their house on "mini rocks". That is they built it on good messages, good commentaries. This is supported by them asking the wise virgins to borrow some of their oil. This is what these ones do, they go to canned messages, they go to commentaries, and borrow what others have said. They have not built up the practice of going to the Lord directly. So when they come again with oil the Lord tells them "I don't know you". He doesn't say "I never knew you" indicating they were never saved, but "I don't know you" indicating that they did not go to Him for their oil.

6. The fact that their lamps were lit and are now going out indicates that they have had some personal experiences of the Lord but they didn't take oil with them. (I am going to share my personal experience concerning this in the next post.) Suffice it to say they had a library filled with spiritual books, and Bible commentaries that they used. But those commentaries all run out at the end. The only source that doesn't run out is the Bible. They never developed the practice of going directly to the Bible. The Lord said "My words are spirit and they are life". That is where you go to get the oil. "Borrowing oil" is simply "borrowing someone else's revelation".

 

[ZNP]

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

My personal experience of Christians who "borrow oil". I was in a group that was completely focused on the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Now this group did something unique, after every message there was a time of personal testimonies. Usually there would be thirty minutes for people to stand up and share a testimony relevant to the message shared. This is extremely difficult. We did not know beforehand what was going to be shared, you weren't given a chance to prepare, and standing in front of hundreds and sometimes thousands of people to share your personal experience of the Lord can be intimidating. As a result what many people did and ultimately the vast majority of people did, was to simply read a commentary on the verses that had been shared that had been published by either Watchman Nee or Witness Lee. Now I also shared regularly, but I never read the commentaries for a testimony. I did read their books, I did know all of their commentaries, but my interest in getting saved and becoming a Christian was to have my own personal experiences of the Lord. I didn't want to parrot someone else's ministry. Everyone else had found a "shortcut" to having a "testimony". Simply read a footnote or short commentary. But I didn't do that, I prayed, the lord would shine a light, and I would realize I had an experience that week that directly related to the message.

When I read this parable I immediately recognized the "foolish virgins" as those who had found a shortcut to getting oil for their lamp. Simply borrow someone else's oil. So the lesson I get from this parable is the Lord is saying from the moment of that "midnight cry" all of those commentaries and prior messages are not going to help you. But it is worse than that, if your whole life you have simply borrowed someone else's oil, if you thought that ministry is simply studying commentaries the way a professor would study research before writing out a lesson plan, then your house will collapse in the storm, and the Lord's return is a storm. The wise virgins were not being stingy, they were simply telling them the truth. You have to buy the oil for yourself. You need to be able to go directly to the Lord in prayer and look at the word of God directly for spirit and life.

I don't think many appreciate the truly stunning significance of "I do not know you". Why does anyone get invited to a wedding? Is it because they write good lesson plans based on Bible teachers and commentaries? No, the only reason anyone gets invited to a wedding is because either the bride of the groom knows you. The foolish virgins didn't know the Lord because they didn't go to Him in prayer to get the oil, they went to someone else's message, canned sermon or commentary.

I like to compare this to being a quarterback in football. Every single play in football is a test for that quarterback. He has three seconds or less to answer the test. He must recognize the defense and know where each receiver is, figure out who is open and get the ball to them in that time. He can also audible to a different play if he recognizes the defense beforehand. You can spend as much time in practice as you want to prepare, but when you are being tested you have three seconds or less. The pressure is intense and unless you have trained specifically to do this you can't. You can't spend your whole life borrowing canned messages and now all of a sudden pick out those personal experiences you have had. What makes this really easy to spot is AI. Now with that people who are posting these canned messages are very easy to spot.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

 

[ZNP]

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

 

[ZNP]

You said that the virgins are both bridesmaids and priests. But priest are the church which is the Bride

If the church is all believers, and the church is the Bride, and all believers are priests, and the virgins are all those who are priests, who is left to be the Bride that the 10 virgins are attending? If the virgins are only some of the priests, i.e. some of the church, what makes those church members so different from the rest of the church that they are not the Bride in the parable. If the Bride is one of the virgins, would that mean that all of the church falls asleep?

OK, tell me this, was the apostle Peter a shepherd who was responsible to feed the Lord's sheep and His lambs, or was Peter a sheep in the Lord's flock? Which one?

 

[Psalm1]

Here let me be more precise: 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1. Watch Ye is a direct reference to watching and not being caught unaware at the Lord's return.
2. Accounted worthy to escape is a direct reference to Harpazo, which is to be snatched out of the way of certain destruction.
3. To stand before the Son of Man is a direct reference to being found faithful and receiving a reward at the Lord's coming.

Of the people you are "referencing" the only one I would listen to is Chuck Missler. If you want to share a message of his directly related to Luke 21:36 I would be interested, otherwise that is just noise.

Yes
It is one of 2 "escape" verses by Jesus and points DIRECTLY to the pretrib rapture.
The virgin parable is also a "worthy vs unworthy " dynamic.

The "buying gold" spoken by Jesus in rev 3 indirectly points to "worthy vs unworthy"
Ester the bride specifically points to the worthiness earned to be with the king.

 

[Psalm1]

What is the Bride doing outside of her father’s house, waiting for the Groom so she can accompany her Groom to her house where she is also waiting. How can teh same person be in two places at the same time? Both in the Father’s house and also on the streets outside the Father’s house ?

The delay is pointing to Jesus delaying.
We are in "the delay".
The last few words of the Bible is the bride calling out to the groom..."MARANATHA ...COME LORD JESUS."

Actually it is THE SPIRIT and the bride calling out.
That is ;"but the groom was delayed."
We are betrothed to Jesus. We are the bride that was alerted That he is coming soon.
So we keep "buying oil" for our lamps.

 

[Psalm1]

The "one taken and the 1 left behind" in Matthew 24 is also the rapture, and it is the same ratio that is taken in the Virgin parable of Matthew 25.
Both instances are the pre. Tribulation rapture

 

[Psalm1]

Here let me help you:

The Bride:
- properly prepared - shout/trumpet - REMOVED from the earth to the 7 year honeymoon at the Father's house.

Harpazo!

10 virgins (bridesmaids):
- shout - properly prepared - REMAIN on earth to enjoy festivities.

Wedding feast!

No
Let me help you..
Wedding supper is in heaven as Jesus prophesied.

 

[Psalm1]

You sound confused. Let me help you:
Matthew 25 concatenates with the preparatory vicissitudes of step #12, not #10.
Matthew 25 is NOT the Nissuin (נִישּׂוּאִין) – Taking the Bride.

There is not any TIME expended between the SHOUT and the rapture.

Nissuin (נִישּׂוּאִין) – Taking the Bride

The groom comes suddenly and takes the bride to the father’s house.

This completes the marriage legally.

Chuppah (חֻפָּה) – Bridal Chamber / Canopy

The couple enters the chuppah, symbolizing the consummation and union.

Traditionally associated with a seven-day bridal chamber period.

Seudat Nissuin (סְעוּדַת נִישּׂוּאִין) – Wedding Feast

The marriage supper or celebratory banquet with guests.

...and yet you have the groom taking the bride back to HER HOUSE , EARTH, FOR WEDDING SUPPER.
Your model of the 10 virgins, with all your modifications, mirrors postribber doctrine.
They also change most everything in the parable.
It is remarkable that the analogy of Jesus being the groom survives the changes.

 

[cv5]

...and yet you have the groom taking the bride back to HER HOUSE , EARTH, FOR WEDDING SUPPER.
Your model of the 10 virgins, with all your modifications, mirrors postribber doctrine.
They also change most everything in the parable.
It is remarkable that the analogy of Jesus being the groom survives the changes.

Yep. You are confused alright.

 

[cv5]

No
Let me help you..
Wedding supper is in heaven as Jesus prophesied.

Wrong again. Wedding supper is on the earth.

You see, the newlywed Couple DEPART from the Chuppah (located at the Fathers house) after their 7 year honeymoon.
Together they descend as the honored Couple to enjoy the Marriage Supper, which is the public kingdom celebration held after Christ and His Bride return to earth.

The Marriage and the Marriage Feast Are Distinct Events​

Jesus’ promise in John 14 and His teachings concerning the future wedding banquet describe two different locations and stages of the marriage program.

1. Christ takes His Bride to the Father’s house in heaven​

Jesus said:

“In my Father’s house are many mansions.… I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also”
—John 14:2–3

Christ was returning to His Father in heaven. Therefore, when He comes to receive the Church to Himself, He takes her to the same place to which He went: the Father’s house in heaven.

This corresponds closely with 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17:

1. Christ descends from heaven.
2. The dead in Christ are raised.
3. Living believers are caught up.
4. All meet the Lord in the air.
5. They thereafter remain with Him.

John Walvoord correctly regarded John 14:1–3 as Christ’s promise to take believers to the Father’s heavenly dwelling. Missler likewise compared the Rapture and heavenly marriage to the bridegroom’s taking his bride to the place prepared in his father’s house.

In the pretribulational sequence, the Church remains with Christ in heaven during Daniel’s seventieth week. During this period she is examined at the Judgment Seat of Christ and is clothed in “fine linen,” representing “the righteous acts of the saints”:

“The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”
—Revelation 19:7–8

Thus, the marriage or Nissuin stage belongs to heaven. The identification of this period as seven years follows from the pretribulational chronology; John 14 itself does not explicitly call it a seven-year honeymoon.

2. The public wedding feast follows Christ’s return to earth​

Revelation 19 presents a decisive sequence:

1. The Bride is already prepared and clothed in heaven — Revelation 19:7–8.
2. The invitation to the marriage supper is announced — Revelation 19:9.
3. Heaven opens and Christ descends to earth with His glorified saints — Revelation 19:11–14.
4. Christ defeats His enemies and establishes His earthly kingdom — Revelation 19:15–21; 20:1–6.

The marriage is therefore already accomplished before Christ leaves heaven, while the announced supper naturally belongs to the kingdom inaugurated by His return.

Walvoord connected the wedding feast with the close of the Tribulation and the Second Coming to earth. Fruchtenbaum likewise places the marriage feast on earth following the Second Coming, marking the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom. Thieme describes the Bride as prepared in heaven for the wedding supper occurring in connection with the Second Advent. Missler explicitly distinguishes “the Marriage of the Lamb in heaven” from “the Marriage Feast at the beginning of the Millennium.”

3. Jesus consistently locates the future kingdom banquet on earth​

Jesus described the banquet as occurring when the patriarchs and kingdom saints are raised and assembled in the Messianic Kingdom:

“Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
—Matthew 8:11

The expression “kingdom of heaven” in Matthew does not mean that the banquet is geographically inside heaven. It describes Heaven’s kingdom established upon the earth. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are associated with the resurrected saints entering Messiah’s earthly kingdom.

Jesus also said at the Last Supper:

“I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
—Matthew 26:29

Luke records the parallel statements:

“I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
—Luke 22:16

“I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.”
—Luke 22:18

Christ will eat and drink again when the kingdom comes. That points to the visible Messianic Kingdom on earth, not to the Bride’s preceding residence in heaven.

Jesus then told the apostles:

“That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
—Luke 22:30

The twelve apostles judging the twelve tribes clearly belongs to Messiah’s restored Israelite kingdom on earth. The royal banquet and the government of Israel occupy the same kingdom setting.

Matthew 25 presents the same order. After the Bridegroom comes, the prepared attendants enter the wedding celebration. Immediately afterward, the Son of Man comes in glory, sits upon His throne, judges the nations and says:

“Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.”
—Matthew 25:34

The feast is consequently associated with the earthly kingdom entered by surviving believers after the Second Coming.

4. The Bride and the invited guests are distinguishable​

Revelation 19 distinguishes the Bride from those invited to the supper:

“Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
—Revelation 19:9

The Church is the Bride, whereas the invited guests include other redeemed groups—particularly resurrected Old Testament saints and Tribulation saints. Fruchtenbaum identifies these saints as the friends or guests of the Bridegroom whose resurrection prepares them to attend the feast on earth.

Daniel 12:11–13 places the resurrection and reward of Old Testament saints after the Tribulation, during the interval preceding the full establishment of the kingdom. This explains why the public supper cannot be completed in heaven throughout the seven-year Tribulation: some of its invited guests are not raised until after that period.

Conclusion​

The dispensational sequence is therefore:

1. Betrothal:
The Church is presently espoused to Christ — 2 Corinthians 11:2.

2. The Bridegroom receives the Bride:
At the Rapture Christ takes the Church to the Father’s house in heaven — John 14:1–3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17.

3. Preparation and marriage in heaven:
The Church appears before Christ’s judgment seat, receives her rewards and is presented as His prepared and glorified Bride — 1 Corinthians 3:12–15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 19:7–8.

4. The Bride returns with Christ:
The glorified Church accompanies Him from heaven to earth — Revelation 19:11–14; Colossians 3:4.

5. The public marriage supper on earth:
Christ gathers the resurrected Old Testament saints, Tribulation saints and surviving kingdom believers for the great banquet inaugurating the Messianic Kingdom — Isaiah 25:6–9; Matthew 8:11; 26:29; Luke 22:16–18, 30; Revelation 19:9.

Therefore, the Father’s house is the heavenly abode to which Christ takes His Bride for the private marriage stage, whereas the Marriage Supper is the public kingdom celebration held after Christ and His Bride return to earth.

That distinction is represented, with some differences of detail, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, John Walvoord, R. B. Thieme Jr. and Chuck Missler. It is not based merely upon later Jewish wedding customs; it follows primarily from the geographical and chronological movement of the biblical texts themselves.

 

[cv5]

I have skipped all of your AI generated garbage posts, but I think your points are simply this:

1. We must use the Galilean practice as the context for understanding this parable (I agree)

2. In this practice the wedding banquet is on the seventh day

3. Being locked out of the wedding banquet is what takes place on the seventh day, the last year of the seven year tribulation

4. Therefore to be locked out is proof that you are not saved

5. So then we must look at Matthew 25 in context with Matthew 24, this wedding procession is during the seven year tribulation

6. It is about the Jews.

Now if you could address that understanding without a bunch of AI generated garbage that is fine. I also think that the gospel of Matthew focuses on the Jews and since this parable is unique to the gospel of Matthew I agree that you have to read this parable as having a special focus on the salvation of the Jews as a nation.

So although I have looked at this parable as being specifically for the salvation of the Jews as a nation, I have come to a different conclusion.

1. The word of God is a two edged sword, so even if this should be read as being specifically for the salvation of the Jews as a nation, at the same time it is something that is good for teaching and exhortation to all believers.

2. The midnight procession lit by torches that leads to the wedding feast can refer specifically to the 70th week, but it can also refer to the entire church age.

3. 10 Virgins is not a complete number of all believers, that number would be 12, but it is a complete number of something, a subset of all believers. These are the servants of the Lord who are there to help guide the believers to the wedding feast.

4. These servants are divided into two equal groups, one is wise, they do what the Lord commands, and they carry out this function. The other is foolish, they don't do what the Lord commands and they don't carry out this function. The only group of "wise" Virgins who fit this description of lighting the way for the Jews to lead them to the wedding feast are the 144,000 in the book of Revelation referring to Jude quoting Enoch about the Lord coming with thousands of thousands. This number, 144, is half of the 288 priestly offices that are mentioned in Chronicles.

5. You cannot refer to unbelievers who are dead in their sins and offenses as "foolish" because they didn't prepare. No one would expect a dead person to "prepare". Instead Matthew 7 explains the situation far better. They heard the Lord speak, they are servants of the Lord, but they were foolish because they built their house, their ministry, their service on sand. A sand grain is a mini rock. Jesus Christ is the rock, they didn't dig down to the rock rather they built their house on "mini rocks". That is they built it on good messages, good commentaries. This is supported by them asking the wise virgins to borrow some of their oil. This is what these ones do, they go to canned messages, they go to commentaries, and borrow what others have said. They have not built up the practice of going to the Lord directly. So when they come again with oil the Lord tells them "I don't know you". He doesn't say "I never knew you" indicating they were never saved, but "I don't know you" indicating that they did not go to Him for their oil.

6. The fact that their lamps were lit and are now going out indicates that they have had some personal experiences of the Lord but they didn't take oil with them. (I am going to share my personal experience concerning this in the next post.) Suffice it to say they had a library filled with spiritual books, and Bible commentaries that they used. But those commentaries all run out at the end. The only source that doesn't run out is the Bible. They never developed the practice of going directly to the Bible. The Lord said "My words are spirit and they are life". That is where you go to get the oil. "Borrowing oil" is simply "borrowing someone else's revelation".

"5. You cannot refer to unbelievers who are dead in their sins and offenses as "foolish" because they didn't prepare."

On the contrary, I can because Christ Jesus certainly did.
But you are right, in that they are not unprepared unbelievers because they are foolish, they are foolish because they are unprepared unbelievers.

 

[ZNP]

Wrong again. Wedding supper is on the earth.

You see, the newlywed Couple DEPART from the Chuppah (located at the Fathers house) after their 7 year honeymoon.
Together they descend as the honored Couple to enjoy the Marriage Supper, which is the public kingdom celebration held after Christ and His Bride return to earth.

The Marriage and the Marriage Feast Are Distinct Events​

Jesus’ promise in John 14 and His teachings concerning the future wedding banquet describe two different locations and stages of the marriage program.

1. Christ takes His Bride to the Father’s house in heaven​

Jesus said:


Christ was returning to His Father in heaven. Therefore, when He comes to receive the Church to Himself, He takes her to the same place to which He went: the Father’s house in heaven.

This corresponds closely with 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17:

1. Christ descends from heaven.
2. The dead in Christ are raised.
3. Living believers are caught up.
4. All meet the Lord in the air.
5. They thereafter remain with Him.

John Walvoord correctly regarded John 14:1–3 as Christ’s promise to take believers to the Father’s heavenly dwelling. Missler likewise compared the Rapture and heavenly marriage to the bridegroom’s taking his bride to the place prepared in his father’s house.

In the pretribulational sequence, the Church remains with Christ in heaven during Daniel’s seventieth week. During this period she is examined at the Judgment Seat of Christ and is clothed in “fine linen,” representing “the righteous acts of the saints”:


Thus, the marriage or Nissuin stage belongs to heaven. The identification of this period as seven years follows from the pretribulational chronology; John 14 itself does not explicitly call it a seven-year honeymoon.

2. The public wedding feast follows Christ’s return to earth​

Revelation 19 presents a decisive sequence:

1. The Bride is already prepared and clothed in heaven — Revelation 19:7–8.
2. The invitation to the marriage supper is announced — Revelation 19:9.
3. Heaven opens and Christ descends to earth with His glorified saints — Revelation 19:11–14.
4. Christ defeats His enemies and establishes His earthly kingdom — Revelation 19:15–21; 20:1–6.

The marriage is therefore already accomplished before Christ leaves heaven, while the announced supper naturally belongs to the kingdom inaugurated by His return.

Walvoord connected the wedding feast with the close of the Tribulation and the Second Coming to earth. Fruchtenbaum likewise places the marriage feast on earth following the Second Coming, marking the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom. Thieme describes the Bride as prepared in heaven for the wedding supper occurring in connection with the Second Advent. Missler explicitly distinguishes “the Marriage of the Lamb in heaven” from “the Marriage Feast at the beginning of the Millennium.”

3. Jesus consistently locates the future kingdom banquet on earth​

Jesus described the banquet as occurring when the patriarchs and kingdom saints are raised and assembled in the Messianic Kingdom:


The expression “kingdom of heaven” in Matthew does not mean that the banquet is geographically inside heaven. It describes Heaven’s kingdom established upon the earth. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are associated with the resurrected saints entering Messiah’s earthly kingdom.

Jesus also said at the Last Supper:


Luke records the parallel statements:



Christ will eat and drink again when the kingdom comes. That points to the visible Messianic Kingdom on earth, not to the Bride’s preceding residence in heaven.

Jesus then told the apostles:


The twelve apostles judging the twelve tribes clearly belongs to Messiah’s restored Israelite kingdom on earth. The royal banquet and the government of Israel occupy the same kingdom setting.

Matthew 25 presents the same order. After the Bridegroom comes, the prepared attendants enter the wedding celebration. Immediately afterward, the Son of Man comes in glory, sits upon His throne, judges the nations and says:


The feast is consequently associated with the earthly kingdom entered by surviving believers after the Second Coming.

4. The Bride and the invited guests are distinguishable​

Revelation 19 distinguishes the Bride from those invited to the supper:


The Church is the Bride, whereas the invited guests include other redeemed groups—particularly resurrected Old Testament saints and Tribulation saints. Fruchtenbaum identifies these saints as the friends or guests of the Bridegroom whose resurrection prepares them to attend the feast on earth.

Daniel 12:11–13 places the resurrection and reward of Old Testament saints after the Tribulation, during the interval preceding the full establishment of the kingdom. This explains why the public supper cannot be completed in heaven throughout the seven-year Tribulation: some of its invited guests are not raised until after that period.

Conclusion​

The dispensational sequence is therefore:

1. Betrothal:
The Church is presently espoused to Christ — 2 Corinthians 11:2.

2. The Bridegroom receives the Bride:
At the Rapture Christ takes the Church to the Father’s house in heaven — John 14:1–3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17.

3. Preparation and marriage in heaven:
The Church appears before Christ’s judgment seat, receives her rewards and is presented as His prepared and glorified Bride — 1 Corinthians 3:12–15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 19:7–8.

4. The Bride returns with Christ:
The glorified Church accompanies Him from heaven to earth — Revelation 19:11–14; Colossians 3:4.

5. The public marriage supper on earth:
Christ gathers the resurrected Old Testament saints, Tribulation saints and surviving kingdom believers for the great banquet inaugurating the Messianic Kingdom — Isaiah 25:6–9; Matthew 8:11; 26:29; Luke 22:16–18, 30; Revelation 19:9.

Therefore, the Father’s house is the heavenly abode to which Christ takes His Bride for the private marriage stage, whereas the Marriage Supper is the public kingdom celebration held after Christ and His Bride return to earth.

That distinction is represented, with some differences of detail, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, John Walvoord, R. B. Thieme Jr. and Chuck Missler. It is not based merely upon later Jewish wedding customs; it follows primarily from the geographical and chronological movement of the biblical texts themselves.

AI vomiting all over this thread again. Are you incapable of simply responding directly to various posts?

 

[GWH]

This entire disagreement is due to ignorance of the key verses: Matt. 25:10-12 & 7:21-23.
Come together, right now, over these!

Bumped for consideration and harmonization.