Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Journey_man]

Friend, if you do not include “Jesus loves you" in your gospel, you are not preaching the real Jesus. If you present a Jesus who is angry at the dirty rotten sinner you see in the doorway, it is no surprise they do not want to know Him or you.

If we told dirty rotten sinners that Jesus loves them, then we would by lying. We don't know who the Lord Jesus loves and who He hates. I don't want the blood of dirty rotten sinners on my hands, by telling them that Jesus loves them, only to find themselves being cast into the lake of fire by Jesus, while they beg for mercy.

What sort of love is it, to throw someone you love into the lake of fire to be tormented in flames for all eternity. Do you even care about the truth of the gospel, or is it too awful to proclaim to rotten sinners.

 

[Journey_man]

Here is one distinctuion between Calvinism and Arminianism

Duckduckgo AI -​

• Calvinism (often): God predestines individuals (the “elect”)—and Christ’s saving work is applied to them ina way that ensures salvation.
• Arminianism (often): God predestines in view of foreknowledge—commonly phrased as God choosing who will be saved based on who will respond to grace (often described as conditional predestination).

I don’t hold to either of those views. So which am I? Calvinist or Arminian?

You're an Arminian through and through, but like all good Arminians, you refuse to admit it. You guys have never offered an alternative view apart from these two. You talk about this third view as if it was a real or viable option, but you can't describe it because it doesn't exist outside of your imagination.

 

[Journey_man]

God did not say He hated Esau before Esau was born. Here is what God said about Esau before Esau was born:

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her [Rebekah], Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

This truth is corroborated in Romans 9:

Romans 9:11-12

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


It was not until Malachi was written that God said He loved Jacob/hated Esau:

Malachi 1:2-3

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Malachi was written long after both Jacob and Esau were born, had lived out their lives, and were dead and buried.

.

Are you suggesting that Malachi 1:3 is not a part of the Bible. do you believe that the Holy Bible is Gods Word or not. You don't get to discard those awful verses, we must accept the whole counsel of God.

I know there are many awful things in the Bible, such as God killing billions of men, women, children and unborn children in the womb, with a world wide flood. Do you suppose God would have killed them all if He loved them?

 

[Journey_man]

Besides believing the Bible does not teach exhaustive divine foreknowledge, I also do not believe the Bible teaches original sin, i.e. that children are born corrupted with a sin nature, which both Calvinism and Arminianism teach. So, how do I fit into either calvinism Arminianism?

Not true, because Arminianism doesn't teach that everyone is born dead in sin. It teaches that everyone is born partially dead and partially alive. This is why it teaches that fallen man still has the ability to freely chose to either believe the gospel or reject it.

Calvinism teaches that everyone is born dead in sin. As such they can't believe the gospel as it's foolishness to them. They remain dead in their sin forever, unless God regenerates them.

 

[Aaron56]

Question:

Was man's spirit untouched by the fall or was it corrupted in the fall?

Neither. Man's spirit is from God. It cannot be corrupted. Man's spirit returns to God who gave it upon his death.
All men have a spirit given by God. This is the mechanism for the creation of the soul: the interaction of man's spirit with God and creation.

If a man resists God, his spirit remains dormant and man perceives God as a threat ("Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord") and will seek life's essence by the consumption of what is created ("..and she saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise..."). In this state man is dead even though he lives. ("Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

If man resists the spirit in him his flesh will be the primary source of his understanding. He will be led by his flesh and his fleshly desires of lust, comfort, and hunger. His soul, instead of being informed by the Spirit of God (spirit to Spirit), will takes its direction from what is created... even worshiping the creation if he is so inclined. Incidentally, this is why Jesus had to come in the flesh of man to save man else He could not have been tempted in all ways a man is tempted.

 

[Cameron143]

Neither. Man's spirit is from God. It cannot be corrupted. Man's spirit returns to God who gave it upon his death.
All men have a spirit given by God. This is the mechanism for the creation of the soul: the interaction of man's spirit with God and creation.

If a man resists God, his spirit remains dormant and man perceives God as a threat ("Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord") and will seek life's essence by the consumption of what is created ("..and she saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise..."). In this state man is dead even though he lives. ("Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

If man resists the spirit in him his flesh will be the primary source of his understanding. He will be led by his flesh and his fleshly desires of lust, comfort, and hunger. His soul, instead of being informed by the Spirit of God (spirit to Spirit), will takes its direction from what is created... even worshiping the creation if he is so inclined. Incidentally, this is why Jesus had to come in the flesh of man to save man else He could not have been tempted in all ways a man is tempted.

So a man, in and of himself, can resist the flesh, seek after God, and get saved?

 

[HeIsHere]

We never say "God loves you" to anyone we meet, we don't know who God loves or who He hates.

Remember God hated Esau, before he was born and God doesn't cast those He loves into hell to suffer eternal torment.

Tragic.

 

[Aaron56]

So a man, in and of himself, can resist the flesh, seek after God, and get saved?

You're looking at it backwards. Man's design is to connect to God but a man can resist God.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The reason man gets no credit for salvation is because man's spirit is not his own. It is God's who gave it.

 

[HeIsHere]

You're looking at it backwards. Man's design is to connect to God but a man can resist God.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The reason man gets no credit for salvation is because man's spirit is not his own. It is God's who gave it.

You know that is because the elect do not resist, that was for the non-elect, just sayin.

 

[Cameron143]

You're looking at it backwards. Man's design is to connect to God but a man can resist God.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The reason man gets no credit for salvation is because man's spirit is not his own. It is God's who gave it.

So why does man need to be born again? Why does he need to be a partaker of the divine nature?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Are you suggesting that Malachi 1:3 is not a part of the Bible.

No. I am suggesting that you need to re-think your statement:

Journey_man said:​

​

Remember God hated Esau, before he was born​

and I showed you what God said about Esau before he was born:

reneweddaybyday said:​

God did not say He hated Esau before Esau was born. Here is what God said about Esau before Esau was born:​

​

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her [Rebekah], Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.​

​

This truth is corroborated in Romans 9:​

​

Romans 9:11-12​

​

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )​

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.​

do you believe that the Holy Bible is Gods Word or not.

I do. The question now is ... do you believe that the Holy Bible is Gods Word or not?

If you believe that the Holy Bible is God's Word, then you must accept the fact that God did not say He hated Esau before Esau was born.

.

 

[Aaron56]

So why does man need to be born again? Why does he need to be a partaker of the divine nature?

Because he begins from a state of resistance: informed only by the flesh. This is what's call the sin "nature". Man becomes spiritually born when he stops resisting God. But, as I said, man cannot take credit because his spirit that responds to God is not his own, it is God's who gave it.

This is why I have maintained that "atheism" is a creation of man to further insulate man from the truth he knows about God. It begins with the assumption that logic and reason are the primary drivers of man. No. If man does not have an endowment of God's spirit man cannot be a living being. Man has no excuse because he knows that God is.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them."

Paul goes onto explain that the consequence of this is the elevation of the flesh and its desires, like I wrote above.

"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever."

 

[Aaron56]

You know that is because the elect do not resist, that was for the non-elect, just sayin.

Exactly. Even if they once resisted, like myself and Paul (Oh what great company I keep! ) they may be saved if they stop suppressing the truth.

 

[Cameron143]

Because he begins from a state of resistance: informed only by the flesh. This is what's call the sin "nature". Man becomes spiritually born when he stops resisting God. But, as I said, man cannot take credit because his spirit that responds to God is not his own, it is God's who gave it.

This is why I have maintained that "atheism" is a creation of man to further insulate man from the truth he knows about God. It begins with the assumption that logic and reason are the primary drivers of man. No. If man does not have an endowment of God's spirit man cannot be a living being. Man has no excuse because he knows that God is.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them."

Paul goes onto explain that the consequence of this is the elevation of the flesh and its desires, like I wrote above.

"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever."

Why does man begin from a state of resistance? Where did that come from?

Man initiates salvation by ceasing to resist?

 

[Aaron56]

Why does he need to be a partaker of the divine nature?

Sorry. I forgot to expound upon this part.

I did mention man's "sin nature" being, well, natural to man. Even so, the endowment of God's spirit in man manifests in the man what may be known of God. His natural actions, or action based on the needs of his flesh, further suppress the truth in unrighteous behavior. Man cannot partake of the divine nature while in this state. He must be born again of the Spirit. This transformation occurs when the comes to Holy Spirit dwell within the man. Dwell is the impact word that means more than "in". Dwell is "live with". I can expound more on that if you wish.

 

[Aaron56]

Why does man begin from a state of resistance? Where did that come from?

Man initiates salvation by ceasing to resist?

No, God initiates salvation by giving man an endowment of Himself.

The state of resistance can be defined as being "carnal" or "focused on the flesh". This is the philosophy and systemic order of the world that came about from the fall. Adam and Eve saw that the fruit would benefit their flesh and so they saw themselves as beings of flesh when they actually spirits (like their Father) only contained in flesh.

Did it ever bother you that some men were called "righteous" after the fall and before Christ? In every example it is because each one believed God. Righteous Abel brought the correct sacrifice.. Abraham, Noah, Daniel, Job... they did not resist God. And it was accounted to them as a measure of righteousness.

 

[Cameron143]

Sorry. I forgot to expound upon this part.

I did mention man's "sin nature" being, well, natural to man. Even so, the endowment of God's spirit in man manifests in the man what may be known of God. His natural actions, or action based on the needs of his flesh, further suppress the truth in unrighteous behavior. Man cannot partake of the divine nature while in this state. He must be born again of the Spirit. This transformation occurs when the comes to Holy Spirit dwell within the man. Dwell is the impact word that means more than "in". Dwell is "live with". I can expound more on that if you wish.

No need to expand. I understand indwelling. But you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you have the spirit of man suppressing the flesh, yet on the other, man needs the indwelling Spirit to overcome the flesh.

 

[Aaron56]

No need to expand. I understand indwelling. But you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you have the spirit of man suppressing the flesh, yet on the other, man needs the indwelling Spirit to overcome the flesh.

No, man's spirit does not suppress the flesh. His flesh and his focus on the flesh does.

 

[Cameron143]

No, God initiates salvation by giving man an endowment of Himself.

The state of resistance can be defined as being "carnal" or "focused on the flesh". This is the philosophy and systemic order of the world that came about from the fall. Adam and Eve saw that the fruit would benefit their flesh and so they saw themselves as beings of flesh when they actually spirits (like their Father) only contained in flesh.

Did it ever bother you that some men were called "righteous" after the fall and before Christ? In every example it is because each one believed God. Righteous Abel brought the correct sacrifice.. Abraham, Noah, Daniel, Job... they did not resist God. And it was accounted to them as a measure of righteousness.

When is man given the endowment?

Never bothered me. The source of their righteousness was Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

No, man's spirit does not suppress the flesh. His flesh and his focus on the flesh does.

I understand. That is the estate of the natural fallen man. But you have said that the man in his spirit can overcome the flesh. Where is this found in scripture?