Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[LTL]

Okay, but my question was/is "Why do you think Rev. 8:8-9 refers to the USA in association with Satan standing on the shore of the sea and a beast coming out of the sea?"

Okay, very good.
The Book of Revelation is set to four storylines.
The first is the seals from Chapter Five through Chapter Seven
The second is the trumpets from Chapter Eight through Chapter Eleven
The third is the mark of the beast from Chapter Twelve through Chapter Sixteen
And the fourth is the fall of Babylon in Chapter Seventeen through Chapter Twenty-Two

The idea is to find the corresponding subject matter in all four storylines. And so when looking at Rev. 8:8-9 it is in the fall of Babylon judgment from Verses 8:7-12. That is, there are five total judgments the first of which is the judgment upon Babylon. The fall of the US is in the judgment upon Babylon.

The fall of Babylon in the seals storyline is Rev. 6:3-4
The fall of Babylon in the trumpets storyline is Rev. 8:7-12
The fall of Babylon in the mark of the beast storyline is Chapter Thirteen
And the fall of Babylon in the the fall of Babylon storyline is Chapters Seventeen and Eighteen


The analysis:
The rise of the beast (Rev. 13:1), who is a servant of Lucifer, corresponds with the judgement upon Babylon (Rev. 17:1) where John sees the whore Babylon upon the 13:1 beast (Rev. 17:3). The judgment is: that the 13:1 beast will remove Babylon from off his back thereby destroying Babylon.

This is done by overtaking the seventh Babylonian economic system referenced in Rev. 17:10. This seventh system is also referenced in Rev. 13:2 and is the subject of Dan. 7.

But before the 13:1 beast can overthrow the seventh economic system he must first bring down the sixth economic system and this is done using the ten kings stated in Rev. 17:12. These ten kings devour the sixth economic system, whose judgment is being addressed in Chapter Seventeen.

Thus, the burning of Babylon in Rev. 17:16 is the destruction of the mountain in Rev. 8:8-9. Mountain is metaphor for nation/kingdom. By destroying the mountain (Rev. 8:8-9) then Babylon the economic system falls (Rev. 18:2).

 

[GWH]

Okay, very good.
The Book of Revelation is set to four storylines.
The first is the seals from Chapter Five through Chapter Seven
The second is the trumpets from Chapter Eight through Chapter Eleven
The third is the mark of the beast from Chapter Twelve through Chapter Sixteen
And the fourth is the fall of Babylon in Chapter Seventeen through Chapter Twenty-Two

The idea is to find the corresponding subject matter in all four storylines. And so when looking at Rev. 8:8-9 it is in the fall of Babylon judgment from Verses 8:7-12. That is, there are five total judgments the first of which is the judgment upon Babylon. The fall of the US is in the judgment upon Babylon.

The fall of Babylon in the seals storyline is Rev. 6:3-4
The fall of Babylon in the trumpets storyline is Rev. 8:7-12
The fall of Babylon in the mark of the beast storyline is Chapter Thirteen
And the fall of Babylon in the the fall of Babylon storyline is Chapters Seventeen and Eighteen


The analysis:
The rise of the beast (Rev. 13:1), who is a servant of Lucifer, corresponds with the judgement upon Babylon (Rev. 17:1) where John sees the whore Babylon upon the 13:1 beast (Rev. 17:3). The judgment is: that the 13:1 beast will remove Babylon from off his back thereby destroying Babylon.

This is done by overtaking the seventh Babylonian economic system referenced in Rev. 17:10. This seventh system is also referenced in Rev. 13:2 and is the subject of Dan. 7.

But before the 13:1 beast can overthrow the seventh economic system he must first bring down the sixth economic system and this is done using the ten kings stated in Rev. 17:12. These ten kings devour the sixth economic system, whose judgment is being addressed in Chapter Seventeen.

Thus, the burning of Babylon in Rev. 17:16 is the destruction of the mountain in Rev. 8:8-9. Mountain is metaphor for nation/kingdom. By destroying the mountain (Rev. 8:8-9) then Babylon the economic system falls (Rev. 18:2).

Okay, so why do you think the fall of the US is in the judgment upon Babylon?

 

[LTL]

Okay, so why do you think the fall of the US is in the judgment upon Babylon?

As economic systems go,
1) The first to preside over Israel was the Babylonian empire
2) The second was Persia
3) the third was Greece
4) the fourth was Rome
5) the fifth was a series of weaker are stronger powers presiding over Israel. This is after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD where the Jews were scattered in the diaspora as well as after the fall of Rome.
6) the sixth is the current economic system presiding over Israel which is the US. As I recall this one is not mentioned in Dan. 2 except to say that it appears to be the case that the rolling forth of the Savior's kingdom begins at 14 May 1942. That is, the stone in Dan. 2 begins rolling forth after Israel is reformed in their home country in 1942.
7) the seventh economic system to preside over Israel will preside for a very short time (Rev. 17:10, Rev. 17:12). The one hour appears to be literal. This is where the three nations fall to the 13:1 beast (Rev. 13:2 and Dan. 7). Also not mentioned in Dan 2 but the Savior's kingdom continues rolling forth.
8) The eighth economic system to preside over Israel is the beast of Rev. 13:1 and his false prophet of Rev. 13:11. From this we see that Israel also falls to the beast. This is where the 13:11 beast places the image of the 13:1 beast in Jerusalem and throughout the world showing that Lucifer has won. But not really since the Savior's kingdom continues to roll forth.

That is, from Dan 2,
1) Babylon
2) Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome
5) weak and strong states
6-8) the stone rolls forth after 14 May 1948

As you can see, the sixth economic system presided over by the US falls. This is Rev. 8:8-9. The fall of that economic system is the fall of the US.

 

[CS1]

C,
I did not add to, but explained the text.

And just for clarification,

Rev. 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev. 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth (I am one of those who have been blessed to read the prophecy),
and they that hear the words of this prophecy (you have not heard the words of this prophecy),
and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand (since you have not been blessed to read the prophecy and have not heard the words of this prophecy then you can not keep the things written therein).

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy (In this verse the Savior addresses any man) ,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life (Thus, if any man takes away takes away from the words of the prophecy then they loose their place in the book of life),
and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (and from the blessings of the prophecy of this book).

C, you will not enjoy the blessing of the prophecy of the Book of Revelation. And that is not a bad thing. It just means that you will not survive the tribulation. And, if you do not take the mark of the beast, then you have salvation in the kingdom of God. And that is a good thing.

Many of the saints will not survive the tribulation. It is seven years of hell on earth.

LOL "It just means that you will not survive the tribulation."

This is one of the most buffoonery statements I have heard in a while. You pass judgement on other when the Body of Christ is no subject to the wrath of God which is being poured out in the book of Revelation. The Book is entitled The Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. First off, you're not all knowing There is not a day promised to you so If the Lord call me home, I will not be seeing the tribulation. I guess you think you will? Wow I did not know you were able to know when you would die or if you would even be here tomorrow. FYI I am not looking for the antichrist I am looking for the Lord Jesus Christ and because I have my faith in Him and born-again and part of the body of Christ, I am not subject to Wrath and I have the promise if I die, I will be with him. So, your ability to strike fear in me has failed. I have not been given a spirit of Fear, but of power, love and sound mind. I am already enjoying the blessing of Revelation because I read it. I have peace now, grace now, faith now, hope now. You are a false teacher. Take your fear doctrine and the of your Elitizing approach that you use to speak to me and other as though you are more endowed. You are not.

 

[LTL]

LOL "It just means that you will not survive the tribulation."

This is one of the most buffoonery statements I have heard in a while. You pass judgement on other when the Body of Christ is no subject to the wrath of God which is being poured out in the book of Revelation. The Book is entitled The Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. First off, you're not all knowing There is not a day promised to you so If the Lord call me home, I will not be seeing the tribulation. I guess you think you will? Wow I did not know you were able to know when you would die or if you would even be here tomorrow. FYI I am not looking for the antichrist I am looking for the Lord Jesus Christ and because I have my faith in Him and born-again and part of the body of Christ, I am not subject to Wrath and I have the promise if I die, I will be with him. So, your ability to strike fear in me has failed. I have not been given a spirit of Fear, but of power, love and sound mind. I am already enjoying the blessing of Revelation because I read it. I have peace now, grace now, faith now, hope now. You are a false teacher. Take your fear doctrine and the of your Elitizing approach that you use to speak to me and other as though you are more endowed. You are not.

C, the rapture doctrine that you follow is not correct. And since you are not included under the Davidic Covenant then you will not survive the tribulation. I am not trying to scare you. But it is better to know it now than later. At least now you have time to consider what I am telling you. Good luck.

 

[CS1]

C, the rapture doctrine that you follow is not correct. And since you are not included under the Davidic Covenant then you will not survive the tribulation. I am not trying to scare you. But it is better to know it now than later. At least now you have time to consider what I am telling you. Good luck.

again You don't know what Doctrine I follow . So your really stuck on yourself. And snice you are a judgmental false teacher , you can't scare me. I have considered what you have said, and it is unbiblical. My King is Jesus not John. My salvation is in Christ not the Davidic covenant.

 

[GWH]

As economic systems go,
1) The first to preside over Israel was the Babylonian empire
2) The second was Persia
3) the third was Greece
4) the fourth was Rome
5) the fifth was a series of weaker are stronger powers presiding over Israel. This is after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD where the Jews were scattered in the diaspora as well as after the fall of Rome.
6) the sixth is the current economic system presiding over Israel which is the US. As I recall this one is not mentioned in Dan. 2 except to say that it appears to be the case that the rolling forth of the Savior's kingdom begins at 14 May 1942. That is, the stone in Dan. 2 begins rolling forth after Israel is reformed in their home country in 1942.
7) the seventh economic system to preside over Israel will preside for a very short time (Rev. 17:10, Rev. 17:12). The one hour appears to be literal. This is where the three nations fall to the 13:1 beast (Rev. 13:2 and Dan. 7). Also not mentioned in Dan 2 but the Savior's kingdom continues rolling forth.
8) The eighth economic system to preside over Israel is the beast of Rev. 13:1 and his false prophet of Rev. 13:11. From this we see that Israel also falls to the beast. This is where the 13:11 beast places the image of the 13:1 beast in Jerusalem and throughout the world showing that Lucifer has won. But not really since the Savior's kingdom continues to roll forth.

That is, from Dan 2,
1) Babylon
2) Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome
5) weak and strong states
6-8) the stone rolls forth after 14 May 1948

As you can see, the sixth economic system presided over by the US falls. This is Rev. 8:8-9. The fall of that economic system is the fall of the US.

Well, time will tell.
I am working to prevent the fall of the USA in my lifetime along with everyone else in the MAGA movement.
TTYL

 

[CS1]

The first estate serve as well. However, the second estate are assigned to write scripture, provide prophecy, and things of that nature. Thus, no one is writing scripture now. Although, many try to fulfill the role of second estate and deceive many.

One guy that stands out is Jim Jones from about 50 years ago. Claimed to be a prophet of God, but was tricked by Lucifer and killed his followers. So anyone claiming to be of that stature is a false prophet and not second estate. That is, only first estate teachers and pastors, etc. are here now. There are no second estate called at this time.

So the church leaders at this time are first estate and must teach from the Bible.

All other doctrines such as Hindu, Muslem, etc. are doctrines of Lucifer. They have no second estate leading them.

Only the second estate are called to lead the Savior's people, and they are recorded in the Bible. That is, the Bible comes from the second estate who were called to give us the Savior's doctrine.

Understanding the First and Second Estates​

These teachings are foundational in Latter-day Saint doctrine.

• First Estate — This term refers to the premortal life where individuals existed before birth and made choices regarding their faithfulness to God.
• Second Estate — This term denotes our current mortal life on Earth, where individuals continue to make choices that impact their eternal progression.
• Biblical Context — While the Bible does not explicitly mention these terms, they are derived from interpretations of scriptural teachings about pre-existence and agency.

 

[LTL]

again You don't know what Doctrine I follow . So your really stuck on yourself. And snice you are a judgmental false teacher , you can't scare me. I have considered what you have said, and it is unbiblical. My King is Jesus not John. My salvation is in Christ not the Davidic covenant.

You are misrepresenting what I have told you.

It is not my intention to scare you.
Salvation comes from Jesus Christ and it is clear that you have salvation in the kingdom of God.
Jesus has appointed John to fulfill the Davidic Covenant which makes him the Davidic King here in our time.
The Davidic Covenant is the mechanism by which the saints of God survive the tribulation.

You do not accept this and that is okay. I have done my part in telling you this information.
And I am pulling for you that you do not take the mark of the beast.
I am in your corner.

 

[LTL]

Well, time will tell.
I am working to prevent the fall of the USA in my lifetime along with everyone else in the MAGA movement.
TTYL

The judgment has already been decreed which is the beginning event to the return of the Savior.

 

[CS1]

You are misrepresenting what I have told you.

It is not my intention to scare you.
Salvation comes from Jesus Christ and it is clear that you have salvation in the kingdom of God.
Jesus has appointed John to fulfill the Davidic Covenant which makes him the Davidic King here in our time.
The Davidic Covenant is the mechanism by which the saints of God survive the tribulation.

You do not accept this and that is okay. I have done my part in telling you this information.
And I am pulling for you that you do not take the mark of the beast.
I am in your corner.

as I told you have not scared me are you suffering from a cognitive dilemma? Please I prefer you not in my corner thank you very much. Jesus is Lord you have yet to even say that. You have yet to say HE is supreme You consider Christ "your friend." Not your God and king. So you deny Christ and His Lordship. You speak of first and second estates which is LDS which you are also deceptive with your LTL .

 

[LTL]

Understanding the First and Second Estates​

These teachings are foundational in Latter-day Saint doctrine.

• First Estate — This term refers to the premortal life where individuals existed before birth and made choices regarding their faithfulness to God.
• Second Estate — This term denotes our current mortal life on Earth, where individuals continue to make choices that impact their eternal progression.
• Biblical Context — While the Bible does not explicitly mention these terms, they are derived from interpretations of scriptural teachings about pre-existence and agency.

First Estate is the condition wherein the individual accepts and is loyal to the Savior. So the LDS have this one wrong.
Second Estate are the individuals called by the Savior from the house of Israel to provide instruction to the first estate. So the LDS have this one wrong.

C,
the LDS are lead by liars and deceivers. You should be able on your own to see that servants of God come from those who believe in him. These are the two estates.
1) believe in Lord Jesus
2) He may call you to serve. Although, the scriptures have already been written, which assignment was given to the second estate. They wrote the Bible.

Come on C.
Surely you can see this. The guys who wrote the Bible had a special calling. They were a cut above the other believers and they had a special assignment.

The LDS are fools. And by the way they cater to the fools of Zoan. And they like you have the contract with death. That when the flowing scourage comes then death will pass them by. It is similar to your rapture doctrine.
.

 

[LTL]

as I told you have not scared me are you suffering from a cognitive dilemma? Please I prefer you not in my corner thank you very much. Jesus is Lord you have yet to even say that. You have yet to say HE is supreme You consider Christ "your friend." Not your God and king. So you deny Christ and His Lordship. You speak of first and second estates which is LDS which you are also deceptive with your LTL .

C,
just to clarify,
I say "Jesus is Lord God Almighty.
"HE is supreme and I consider Jesus Christ to be my "friend."
I also consider Jesus to be my God and king.
I do not deny Christ and His Lordship.

C,
I speak of the first and second estates which is LDS do not understand because they are being led by false prophets.
But now you understand the first and second estates better than the LDS because I have taught you.

 

[CS1]

First Estate is the condition wherein the individual accepts and is loyal to the Savior. So the LDS have this one wrong.
Second Estate are the individuals called by the Savior from the house of Israel to provide instruction to the first estate. So the LDS have this one wrong.

C,
the LDS are lead by liars and deceivers. You should be able on your own to see that servants of God come from those who believe in him. These are the two estates.
1) believe in Lord Jesus
2) He may call you to serve. Although, the scriptures have already been written, which assignment was given to the second estate. They wrote the Bible.

Come on C.
Surely you can see this. The guys who wrote the Bible had a special calling. They were a cut above the other believers and they had a special assignment.

The LDS are fools. And by the way they cater to the fools of Zoan. And they like you have the contract with death. That when the flowing scourage comes then death will pass them by. It is similar to your rapture doctrine.
.

First the guy who wrote were able to do so by the inspiration of the Spirit as they were carried along no revelation of their own 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:21

The Lord Jesus Christ is the foundational truth on which all scriptures are built on. Come on LTL surely you can see this?
Kind David Himself said PS 110:11 “The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’ and restated in Luke 20:42.

• First “Lord”: Yahweh — the covenant name of God, the eternal Creator.
• Second “Lord”: Adoni — meaning “master” or “lord,” here referring to the Messiah

This dual use of “Lord” is significant because in Jewish thought, “Lord” (Yahweh) is God’s name, while “Adoni” means “master” or “lord” in a human sense. David’s psalm shows that the Messiah is both David’s son (by lineage) and David’s Lord (by authority).

Jesus uses Psalm 110:1 to challenge the Pharisees’ definition of the Messiah as merely “David’s son.” He points out that if David calls the Messiah “Lord,” then the Messiah must be more than a human descendant — He must be divine.

• Messianic prophecy: Psalm 110 is one of the most cited messianic psalms in the New Testament, applied to Jesus in Acts 2:34–36, Hebrews 1:13, and elsewhere.
• Divine authority: Sitting “at the right hand” of God signifies co‑regency with Yahweh, an honor reserved for God alone (Isaiah 42:8).
• Trinitarian implication: The verse can be seen as a prophetic picture of the Father speaking to the Son, affirming His divine status.

 

[CS1]

C,
just to clarify,
I say "Jesus is Lord God Almighty.
"HE is supreme and I consider Jesus Christ to be my "friend."
I also consider Jesus to be my God and king.
I do not deny Christ and His Lordship.

C,
I speak of the first and second estates which is LDS do not understand because they are being led by false prophets.
But now you understand the first and second estates better than the LDS because I have taught you.

No you have not.

 

[CS1]

First the guy who wrote were able to do so by the inspiration of the Spirit as they were carried along no revelation of their own 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:21

The Lord Jesus Christ is the foundational truth on which all scriptures are built on. Come on LTL surely you can see this?
Kind David Himself said PS 110:11 “The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’ and restated in Luke 20:42.

• First “Lord”: Yahweh — the covenant name of God, the eternal Creator.
• Second “Lord”: Adoni — meaning “master” or “lord,” here referring to the Messiah

This dual use of “Lord” is significant because in Jewish thought, “Lord” (Yahweh) is God’s name, while “Adoni” means “master” or “lord” in a human sense. David’s psalm shows that the Messiah is both David’s son (by lineage) and David’s Lord (by authority).

Jesus uses Psalm 110:1 to challenge the Pharisees’ definition of the Messiah as merely “David’s son.” He points out that if David calls the Messiah “Lord,” then the Messiah must be more than a human descendant — He must be divine.

• Messianic prophecy: Psalm 110 is one of the most cited messianic psalms in the New Testament, applied to Jesus in Acts 2:34–36, Hebrews 1:13, and elsewhere.
• Divine authority: Sitting “at the right hand” of God signifies co‑regency with Yahweh, an honor reserved for God alone (Isaiah 42:8).
• Trinitarian implication: The verse can be seen as a prophetic picture of the Father speaking to the Son, affirming His divine status.

LTL now you have the understanding of the first and second estate as I have provided you from the word of God.

First Lord
Second Lord
said by David in context to the Davidic Covenant. Jesus is all of it. enjoy your lesson.

 

[LTL]

No you have not.

1) You now know that the first estate are the believers in Jesus Christ and
2) the second estate have been assigned to give them the gospel message via the Bible.

I have taught you this information.

 

[CS1]

1) You now know that the first estate are the believers in Jesus Christ and
2) the second estate have been assigned to give them the gospel message via the Bible.

I have taught you this information.

nope you did not. sorry heard that years ago

 

[LTL]

1) You now know that the first estate are the believers in Jesus Christ and
2) the second estate have been assigned to give them the gospel message via the Bible.

I have taught you this information.

Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

first estate = follow Jesus Christ
loose the first estate = reject Jesus Christ

C,
I know that you can see this.

 

[GWH]

The judgment has already been decreed which is the beginning event to the return of the Savior.

Even if so, God wants us to resist Satan and pray for His will to be done on earth.