Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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LTL said:
You are misrepresenting what I have told you.

It is not my intention to scare you.
Salvation comes from Jesus Christ and it is clear that you have salvation in the kingdom of God.
Jesus has appointed John to fulfill the Davidic Covenant which makes him the Davidic King here in our time.
The Davidic Covenant is the mechanism by which the saints of God survive the tribulation.

You do not accept this and that is okay. I have done my part in telling you this information.
And I am pulling for you that you do not take the mark of the beast.
I am in your corner.
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You make these statements without any scriptural evidence given. Please tell me, where in Scripture are we taught that Jesus appointed John to fulfill the Davidic Covenant? I ask this especially in view of the fact that Jesus Christ Himself has an everlasting kingdom:

NKJV 2Pe 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Where are we told in the Bible that the Davidic Covenant is the mechanism by which the saints of God survive the tribulation?
 
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LTL said:
1) You now know that the first estate are the believers in Jesus Christ and
2) the second estate have been assigned to give them the gospel message via the Bible.

I have taught you this information.
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The only place I can find "first estate" is in this verse in the KJV translation:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

That verse is talking about angels, not Christians.

I cannot find the phrase "second estate" in the Bible at all.
 
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DavidLamb said:
You make these statements without any scriptural evidence given. Please tell me, where in Scripture are we taught that Jesus appointed John to fulfill the Davidic Covenant? I ask this especially in view of the fact that Jesus Christ Himself has an everlasting kingdom:

NKJV 2Pe 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Where are we told in the Bible that the Davidic Covenant is the mechanism by which the saints of God survive the tribulation?
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Thank you, D.
There are in general four applications of scripture. At least that is what some claim: past, future, up, and down. The past is the historical aspect of scripture which is the literal reading thereof. The future is the metaphorical reading, the up is the spiritual reading, and the down is the moral. I do not know if that is correct, but I do know that there is more to scripture than the literal.

It is okay if all that is being read is the literal. But Jesus shows in the parables that we are to go beyond the literal. For instance, when some seed falls in the stony places does not mean that exactly, but more.

Thus, Kings on this earth do not have an everlasting kingdoms. That is, Davidic Kings do not have everlasting kingdoms. Their kingdoms are limited to this earth and the time of their mortality. However, in the case of Jesus who was a Davidic king during his mortality, although not formerly coronated. Jesus is the eternal Savior. Therefore, his Davidic kingship was not limited to the duration of his mortality but extends forever. Nevertheless, Jesus was not the only Davidic King as you and others presume.

And like Jesus who was not a coronated Davidic King, others were not coronated as Davidic Kings as well. It amazes me that you do not understand this.
 
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LTL said:
Thank you, D.
There are in general four applications of scripture. At least that is what some claim: past, future, up, and down. The past is the historical aspect of scripture which is the literal reading thereof. The future is the metaphorical reading, the up is the spiritual reading, and the down is the moral. I do not know if that is correct, but I do know that there is more to scripture than the literal.

It is okay if all that is being read is the literal. But Jesus shows in the parables that we are to go beyond the literal. For instance, when some seed falls in the stony places does not mean that exactly, but more.

Thus, Kings on this earth do not have an everlasting kingdoms. That is, Davidic Kings do not have everlasting kingdoms. Their kingdoms are limited to this earth and the time of their mortality. However, in the case of Jesus who was a Davidic king during his mortality, although not formerly coronated. Jesus is the eternal Savior. Therefore, his Davidic kingship was not limited to the duration of his mortality but extends forever. Nevertheless, Jesus was not the only Davidic King as you and others presume.

And like Jesus who was not a coronated Davidic King, others were not coronated as Davidic Kings as well. It amazes me that you do not understand this.
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But it is Jesus Christ Who fulfilled the promise made by God to David. That is why the angel said to Mary:

NKJV Luk 1:30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

"Of His kingdom there will be no end," not "When His kingdom ends, John will take His place."

How different from earthly kings! As you say, the kings of the earth don't have everlasting kingdoms. "Great David's greater Son", Jesus Christ, does. There is no successor to Jesus's throne.

The fact that Jesus sometimes spoke in parables does not mean that there are parts of the Bible that are straightforward and literal. Jesus explaining the parables to His disciples is an obvious example.
 
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DavidLamb said:
The only place I can find "first estate" is in this verse in the KJV translation:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

That verse is talking about angels, not Christians.

I cannot find the phrase "second estate" in the Bible at all.
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Followers of Christ are Christians. Those who reject Christ are not. If angels reject Christ then they are not Christians. if angels accept Christ then they are Christians. Seems simple to me.

If angels keep their first estate by staying true to God, then they are followers of Christ. That is however, if you believe Christ to be God. Are you saying that Christ is not God? Anyone under judgment has rejected God. Anyone under judgment has rejected Jesus Christ.

If those who follow Christ are the first estate, then those whom he calls from the first estate to serve are the second estate. They have been called to serve. They are not followers of Christ only but work for him in a specific calling. Like writing the books of the Bible.

Oh, you think that these writers of the Bible did that on their own?
 
DavidLamb said:
But it is Jesus Christ Who fulfilled the promise made by God to David. That is why the angel said to Mary:

NKJV Luk 1:30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

"Of His kingdom there will be no end," not "When His kingdom ends, John will take His place."

How different from earthly kings! As you say, the kings of the earth don't have everlasting kingdoms. "Great David's greater Son", Jesus Christ, does. There is no successor to Jesus's throne.

The fact that Jesus sometimes spoke in parables does not mean that there are parts of the Bible that are straightforward and literal. Jesus explaining the parables to His disciples is an obvious example.
Click to expand...

Who was Jesus' father?
 
LTL said:
Followers of Christ are Christians. Those who reject Christ are not. If angels reject Christ then they are not Christians. if angels accept Christ then they are Christians. Seems simple to me.

If angels keep their first estate by staying true to God, then they are followers of Christ. That is however, if you believe Christ to be God. Are you saying that Christ is not God? Anyone under judgment has rejected God. Anyone under judgment has rejected Jesus Christ.

If those who follow Christ are the first estate, then those whom he calls from the first estate to serve are the second estate. They have been called to serve. They are not followers of Christ only but work for him in a specific calling. Like writing the books of the Bible.

Oh, you think that these writers of the Bible did that on their own?
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Where are angels called Christians in the Bible? A Christian is someone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. There is no salvation for fallen angels, and unfallen angels need no salvation.

Where have I said anything like thinking that the human writers of the Bible did it all on their own? I believe 2 Timothy 3:16 which tells us that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God.
 
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LTL said:
Who was Jesus' father?
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God. When Mary was puzzled as to how she was going to conceive, Gabriel replied:

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
 
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DavidLamb said:
Where are angels called Christians in the Bible? A Christian is someone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. There is no salvation for fallen angels, and unfallen angels need no salvation.

Where have I said anything like thinking that the human writers of the Bible did it all on their own? I believe 2 Timothy 3:16 which tells us that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God.
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Jesus is God
God is Christ
followers of Christ are Christians
followers of God are Christians
all who reject God are not Christians
all who accept God are Christians

God is Christ
I do not understand these limitations that you have.
 
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LTL said:
Jesus is God
God is Christ
followers of Christ are Christians
followers of God are Christians
all who reject God are not Christians
all who accept God are Christians

God is Christ
I do not understand these limitations that you have.
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The "limitations" are there because the teachings (for example, that angels can be saved) are not in the Bible. If I saw that teaching in the Bible, I would believe it, but it is not there.
 
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DavidLamb said:
The "limitations" are there because the teachings (for example, that angels can be saved) are not in the Bible. If I saw that teaching in the Bible, I would believe it, but it is not there.
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If angels rebel then they are cast out. If people on the earth rebel then they are cast out. Therefore, anyone rebelling against God is cast out. With the exception that people on the earth have an opurtunity to repent. And if they repent then they have salvation from their sins that they committed against God. Angels do not have that grace but must remain loyal to the Savior, no exceptions. Angels rebelling against God are cast out.

All these who are loyal to Jesus, who is God Almighty, are followers of Christ.

Are you saying that God is not Christ. I do not understand your position. God is Jesus, Jesus is God, Jesus is Christ, Christ is God. Anyone following God is following Jesus and anyone following Jesus is following Christ. I do not understand the problem.
 
DavidLamb said:
The "limitations" are there because the teachings (for example, that angels can be saved) are not in the Bible. If I saw that teaching in the Bible, I would believe it, but it is not there.
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Are the angels in heaven not saved?
Their salvation is definitely implied!
 
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LTL said:
If angels rebel then they are cast out. If people on the earth rebel then they are cast out. Therefore, anyone rebelling against God is cast out. With the exception that people on the earth have an opurtunity to repent. And if they repent then they have salvation from their sins that they committed against God. Angels do not have that grace but must remain loyal to the Savior, no exceptions. Angels rebelling against God are cast out.

All these who are loyal to Jesus, who is God Almighty, are followers of Christ.

Are you saying that God is not Christ. I do not understand your position. God is Jesus, Jesus is God, Jesus is Christ, Christ is God. Anyone following God is following Jesus and anyone following Jesus is following Christ. I do not understand the problem.
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No I am not saying that Christ is not God. I am saying that Scripture does not say that fallen angels can repent and be saved. (Unfallen angels, by definition, don't require salvation .) You say that God is Jesus. I say that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So Jesus Christ ("The Word" as John calls Him) is God. But God is not only Jesus. Fallen angels will never follow Christ. Unfallen angels do not require Christ as a Saviour, so though of course they know Christ and rejoice in Him, they are never called Christians. A Christian is one who follows Christ and knws Him as his our her Saviour.
 
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DavidLamb said:
What do they need saving from? They are unfallen angels; they have never sinned.
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So angels do not need God's salvation via Christ's atonement, because Jesus was no better than they?
Hmm. This question is a reason angelology is an enigma for me.
 
GWH said:
So angels do not need God's salvation via Christ's atonement, because Jesus was no better than they?
Hmm. This question is a reason angelology is an enigma for me.
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Where did I say that? I didn't mention, nor do I believe, that Jesus is no better than the angels. My point is that Jesus Christ took on human flesh in order to save human sinners. He didn't take the form of an angel and suffer as an angel in order to save fallen angels. Do we have any indication at all in the Bible that fallen angels can be saved?
 
DavidLamb said:
Where did I say that? I didn't mention, nor do I believe, that Jesus is no better than the angels. My point is that Jesus Christ took on human flesh in order to save human sinners. He didn't take the form of an angel and suffer as an angel in order to save fallen angels. Do we have any indication at all in the Bible that fallen angels can be saved?
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You implied that by saying they did not sin, which is what makes Jesus superior to humans and qualified to atone for sins.
The Bible does not explain angelology, which is why we have questions.

Are angels robots, programmed to obey? If so, then how did a third of them fall?
Their fall implies MFW, and MFW implies ability to repent of sin.

Perhaps the unfallen angels did not commit the mortal/damning sin of hating God,
and they confess/confessed their minor sins immediately and so are/were forgiven rather than expelled from heaven?
Forgiven on the basis of belief in Christ's atonement, who is sinless and therefore their superior?
 
GWH said:
You implied that by saying they did not sin, which is what makes Jesus superior to humans and qualified to atone for sins.
The Bible does not explain angelology, which is why we have questions.

Are angels robots, programmed to obey? If so, then how did a third of them fall?
Their fall implies MFW, and MFW implies ability to repent of sin.

Perhaps the unfallen angels did not commit the mortal/damning sin of hating God,
and they confess/confessed their minor sins immediately and so are/were forgiven rather than expelled from heaven?
Forgiven on the basis of belief in Christ's atonement, who is sinless and therefore their superior?
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Possible, I suppose, but we just are not told, as far as I am aware, that unfallen angels confess/repent and have there supposed sins atoned for.
 
DavidLamb said:
Possible, I suppose, but we just are not told, as far as I am aware, that unfallen angels confess/repent and have there supposed sins atoned for.
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Yes, but speculating that they are sinless seems more problematic than my guess. I guess you saw that I am continuing discussion of unfallen angels on my thread about them for anyone who is interested. TTYL 👋
 
DavidLamb said:
You make these statements without any scriptural evidence given. Please tell me, where in Scripture are we taught that Jesus appointed John to fulfill the Davidic Covenant? I ask this especially in view of the fact that Jesus Christ Himself has an everlasting kingdom:

NKJV 2Pe 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Where are we told in the Bible that the Davidic Covenant is the mechanism by which the saints of God survive the tribulation?
Click to expand...
he can't because it is "his own revelation.
 
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