OSAS origins and comparison
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Amen! 2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
you cant put a finger on it, you dont know what these new laws are.... your attempt to explain is a total fail yo have departed from the truth.
So, you are unable to draw any inferences from this act of God in providing a covering for them after they sinned? They would die, yes. But had they been completely cut off from God? No. I'm not surmising this. It is fact.
Does this mean that all of the descendants were assured of God's continuing presence forever? Of course not! That would be "surmise!"
No, it is not surmising. Offering the Tree of Life is viewed as having an ultimate promise built into it in the book of Revelation.
Rev 22.1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse.
Apparently you're unwilling to draw inferences at any point? That is the problem Jews had when Jesus explained things in parables. They weren't willing to accept the spiritual basis for Jesus' stories, and so rejected the logical inferences that those stories applied to them.
Suit yourself. You've made up your mind. But as I see it, you've convinced yourself you have a backup plan in the event of death. That translates, to me, in a desire for "assurance." God has put that in your heart, in my opinion.
Eccl 12.13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Really, you think to represent the human condition. But Christians across the centuries have sought assurance of Eternal Life. And most agree that they acheive that when they experience redemption and regeneration.
My own interest is indeed in obtaining the assurance of Salvation. Nothing at all wrong with that. The Gospel is predicated on the idea that humans should want that.
It's obvious that Christian redemption applied to people--not to angels.
1 John 5:13 does not say that a person can simply believe in Jesus while refusing to obey Him and still claim eternal life. John wrote an entire letter explaining what genuine faith looks like.
What are “these things”? They are not merely the words “believe in Jesus.” John has just spent the entire letter explaining what genuine belief produces: walking in the light, confessing sin, keeping God's commandments, keeping His word, walking as Jesus walked, loving others, practicing righteousness, doing God's will, abiding in Christ, and overcoming the world.
Here are the things John says, about a true believer and what they do in order:
1 John 1:7 — Walk in the light
“But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
1 John 1:9 — Confess your sins
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John 2:1 — Do not sin
“My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.”
1 John 2:3 — Keep His commandments
“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”
1 John 2:4 — Do not claim to know Him while disobeying Him
“He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
1 John 2:5 — Keep His word
“But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”
1 John 2:6 — Walk as Jesus walked
“He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.”
1 John 2:10 — Love your brother
“He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.”
1 John 2:15 — Do not love the world
“Do not love the world or the things in the world.”
1 John 2:17 — Do the will of God
“And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”
1 John 2:24 — Let His teaching remain in you
John says that if what they heard from the beginning remains in them, they will abide in the Son and the Father.
1 John 2:28 — Abide in Him
“And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”
1 John 2:29 — Practice righteousness
“If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.”
1 John 3:3 — Purify yourself
“And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”
1 John 3:7 — Practice righteousness
“Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.”
1 John 3:14 — Love the brethren
“We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.”
1 John 3:18 — Love in deed and truth
“My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.”
1 John 3:22 — Keep His commandments and do what pleases Him
“And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.”
1 John 3:23 — Believe in Jesus and love one another
“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”
1 John 3:24 — Keep His commandments and abide in Him
“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.”
1 John 4:1 — Test the spirits
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
1 John 4:7 — Love one another
“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.”
1 John 4:20 — Do not claim to love God while hating your brother
“If someone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar.”
1 John 4:21 — Love your brother
“And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.”
1 John 5:2 — Love God and keep His commandments
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.”
1 John 5:3 — Keep His commandments
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”
1 John 5:4 — Overcome the world
“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”
Then comes 1 John 5:13:
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”
Therefore, using 1 John 5:13 to teach “just believe, and nothing else is required?” is not what John wrote. It is taking one sentence and deliberately cutting it away from the rest of the letter.
John himself gives the test: “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3).
Belief is not merely saying that we believe. Genuine belief is shown by how we live.
This was before Pentecost, so no one was indwelt and sealed yet. Some were owed that promise. Judas would have been among that group of disciples. Although Jesus told those same disciples to believe while He (the Light, the Word) was with them in John 12:35-36. Judas was in the presence of God, Jesus incarnate, that same light and heard the same Word, which was what I believe allows a person to be drawn to Jesus and believe. Interesting, that Judas rejected the Light, and in John 13:30, as soon as he takes the bread at the last supper and leaves to betray Jesus, it says "and it was night". Also, in John 13:27, it says that just before Judas walks into the night, Satan entered him. Judas would be the seed that fell among thorns in that parable Matthew 13:1-23. And of course, Jesus said he was the son of perdition. He was allowed to fall to fulfill Scripture.
Jesus said the His disciples (before the cross).
John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
OT Scripture fulfilled through Judas' betrayal.
Psalm 41:9 Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
All that the Father gave Him, that would be OT believers, I believe. They were predestined to be placed into Christ and be literally saved. (Romans 8:28-30, 1 Corinthians 8:3).
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me (except Judas). What happened there? I couldn't say for sure, but I do know that Judas was the exception, not the rule. And He was not indwelt at that time. If a person is to hang their hat on that passage to prove that a person can lose their salvation, they must also know that it's a double edged sword, as it actually says that Judas was the only one, thus proving eternal security for every believer except him. Was he lost technically? Was he ever a true OT believer? I don't know. There's not enough context to say for sure. At least not that I see at the moment. I do know what happened to him was not the norm for everyone else. especially after the cross. That could not happen after the cross and the transition that followed, as recorded in Acts, because after the transition from OT to NT, the norm for every believer is believe and the Holy Spirit indwells that person, thus the seal.
Dave
Does anyone here in this thread actually believe that eternal security teaches that a person can live any way that they choose to, even sinning blatantly, and be guaranteed salvation?
Dave
Keep working. Maybe you'll get there. Maybe you won't. If you're relying on your own obedience, you won't.
The way they live their life while in this life shows that's what some people actually believe, even if they don't say it.
They think God will just change them when Lord Jesus returns, but what the Bible says is that we are to obey Him now in the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13,14 - Says we are sealed with the Spirit - does not say we cannot lose the Spirit.
I Cor. 1:21,22 - says we have been given the Spirit as an earnest (downpayment) and mentions "sealed" - does not say we cannot lose the Spirit
Rom. 8:38,39 - the Spirit is not mentioned here
Philippians 1:6 - the Spirit is not mentioned here
I Peter 1:5 - says we "are kept by the power of God" - but the Spirit is not mentioned here.
I was asking for a verse that clearly says that once we have the indwelling of the Spirit, that we cannot lose it: "That cannot happen. It doesn't matter how, it cannot happen."
Sealed unto the last day.
Opponents of eternal Salvation have to show where Jesus expressly stated,he would lift his seal and strip away all that occured when we were made new in him.
They cannot accomplish this.
Because as Jesus said,we are Saved by his grace. And that is irrevocable.
Your challenge would be to find the passage where Jesus contradicts that irrevocable Salvific gift. And states,it is irrevocable by our choice.
Such Scripture does not exist.
Furthermore,why would you want to insist,as a born again Christian,you are not actually irrevocable sealed and Saved in Christ?
Romans 11:29
John 10
Keep trusting Jesus and you will continue to be there. If you are relying on what Bible verses seem to mean, while not walking in the spirit of Jesus, you are in the same predicament as the Pharisees who searched the scriptures thinking that in them they had aeonous life.
Hey Chester.
The nature of the seal is that it can only be broken by the one that made it. Seems pretty straight forward. There are exact verses there. The Truth is in the context.
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our *inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22--My bad, I put 1 Corinthians, it's second Corinthians 1:21-22.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He (the Spirit of Christ Romans 8:9-11) who has begun a good work in you Galatians 3:2-3) will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
BTW, are you now being perfected by the flesh? That's a very valid question. You see we call it evidences because our works are obedience, or our good works are from the Holy Spirit, not the flesh. When you claim these good works for yourself, you are also claiming that those same good works come from your flesh. It's the lack of fruit , an evidence, that can condemn us. If it's from the flesh, then it's a lack of works. Your flesh cannot produce a good work. Paul's question to you...
Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
What do you have that you did not receive from God as a gift? And if you did received it from god as a gift, why do you boast as if you boast as if your flesh has obtained something? (1 Corinthians 4:7). If Abraham was justified by works then he has something to boast about (Romans 4).
Consider the verses already posted as context for 1 Peter next.
1 Peter 1: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten (born again) us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:9-14, Galatians 3:27m 1 Peter 3:21 see below), to an *inheritance* (Ephesians 1:11) incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
So Jesus didn't die for the sin of stopping to trust Him? And the Pharisees "searched the scriptures" and then added their own additional requirements, often in conflict with those same scriptures.
Please, to show you have actually in good faith considered the other side’s argument, in your own words, explain how someone who does not agree with OSAS would exegete to support their view, the texts you have cited as proving your view.
when people here say they dont have to keep the ten commandments as Jesus asked us to do to have eternal life it is a sin, it is a rejection of Jesus, a grave sin.
I don't believe you can lose the Holy Spirit, but God has a criteria for who He gives His Holy Spirit to:
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
God knows who are willing to obey Him. He won't give His precious Holy Spirit to people who won't obey Him.
So not everyone who thinks they are saved automatically receive the Holy Spirit - only those willing to and actually obey God.
Are you saying that Jesus did not die for the sin of stopping trusting Him? Are you saying that anyone who began to trust Jesus and stopped trusting Him at some point, has no way back into reconciliation with Him?
I don’t disagree that the Pharisees did that. But that they did that, does not logically negate that they also relied for acceptance with God, on knowing and guarding and keeping scripture, as they interpreted it,
actually what you wrote does makes a lot of sense and it explains many things I did not understand, I thank you for thatI don't believe you can lose the Holy Spirit, but God has a criteria for who He gives His Holy Spirit to:
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
God knows who are willing to obey Him. He won't give His precious Holy Spirit to people who won't obey Him.
So not everyone who thinks they are saved automatically receive the Holy Spirit - only those willing to and actually obey God.
It also took me a while to understand that but yes, once understood, everything falls into place and makes sense.