OSAS origins and comparison

[randyk]

Up front, I confess that I am more Reformation-oriented in my soteriology than Arminian, though I am to a measure a Free Will advocate. That being said I am much more tolerant of free discourse between genuine Christian movements on this issue than many. It is an oddity of history that Predestination was largely viewed as the more orthodox view for many years, and Arminianism viewed with suspicion and at times as even a heresy.

But in places like the US, where Methodism has become prominent, the roles have reversed. Predestination, when coupled with Calvinism, is considered by some Methodists as heresy, while Arminianism is viewed as the prominent orthodox position. That being said, the truth needs to be told.

I'm a member of AoG and currently attend a Methodist church. Since I'm disallowed from discussing this elsewhere on this Forum, and people on the Forum continue to argue on this topic, I will confine my response here. And I will severely cut back my contributions on this Forum, since it is heavily censored on this matter, allowing for only one point of view. However, I've been told I am able to express ideas on this subject here, on the Unorthodox portion of the Forum, free of censorship.

OSAS is the Calvinist position expressed by some in more modern times. But the concept originates with early Predestination beliefs held by Augustine and the Reformers, though not necessarily expressed literally as "Once Saved Always Saved." Calvin went farther than some with his Double Predestination, as it was later called. TULIP came to present the 5 points of Calvinism, which included the Perseverance of the Saints, or one form of "Once Saved Always Saved."

Lutheranism and Calvinism were concerned to avoid the error of Pelagianism, the idea that we have within our nature the ability to independently produce righteousness and obtain Eternal Life. According to the Reformers we are predestined to Election by God, but once so Elected are free to make choices to exercise Faith and to Choose Salvation.

Methodism held to the idea that people have Prevenient Grace and are able to produce Faith by our own works with the caveat that Christ's redemption is essential to the formula. Some explain this as operating together with Christ synergistically.

A lot had to do with understanding the nature of Salvation itself in terms of Justification and Sanctification. Luther felt that a complete Conversion indicating one has true Faith and belongs to the Elect is at the heart of Salvation.

Arminius felt that conversion becomes real with Faith, and tends towards Perseverance, but nevertheless can be lost. Wesley believed the Arminian formula, but presented Instant Sanctification as a step beyond Nominal Christianity to indicate a more authentic Christian Conversion, or Rebirth.

Pentecostals saw Spirit Baptism as an important follow-up to Salvation, though like Methodist Sanctification seemed to confirm a real Conversion beyond Nominal Christianity. In reality, though, Nominal Christianity may represent a false Christianity, existing without a complete or true commitment to Christianity--less than a full Conversion.

So, all of these theological systems called for a step beyond the Nominal Church to provide real evidence of a true Conversion, or Rebirth. They are just called by different names, authenticating true Conversion, whether it is described as the experience of Faith for Election, Instant Sanctification, or Spirit Baptism.

And whether one can lose his Salvation or not may depend on whether the one exercising Christian gifts is representative of a true Christian Conversion or not. Jesus said that men would say, "Lord, Lord," when they are displaying gifts but not fully committed to Christ.

It is debatable, I suppose, whether someone who has the gifts of Christianity is really Christian when he turns away from Christianity permanently? That's the thing with OSAS--it doesn't seem to make much difference either way. If a Christian acts like a Christian and is not, or acts like a Christian and is, and turns completely away, the result is the same--the person who had acted Christian completely turns away. Paul and Peter both called for Christians, with gifts, to prove whether they are the Elect.

The big deal with Reformation Theology and Predestination is whether it is Fatalistic or has Free Will, in some measure? Regardless, all agree that whether Prevenient Grace or Faith by Election, nobody works righteousness acceptable to God for Salvation unless it is done with Christ's Atonement providing for it legally and spiritually. Even Predestinarians who are somewhat Fatalistic do allow for some measure of Free Will--just not Pelagianism.

Maturing in the Christian life has nothing to do with obtaining Salvation, which is what some call "Progressive Sanctification." We are actually Sanctified by the Work of Christ at Salvation, though the process of maturation continues progressively over time.

 

[Dave123]

OSAS is the Calvinist position expressed by some in more modern times. But the concept originates with early Predestination beliefs held by Augustine and the Reformers, though not necessarily expressed literally as "Once Saved Always Saved." Calvin went farther than some with his Double Predestination, as it was later called. TULIP came to present the 5 points of Calvinism, which included the Perseverance of the Saints, or one form of "Once Saved Always Saved."

Hey Randy.

OSAS is a modern expression, but the idea of eternal security is everywhere in Scripture. Jesus promising that He will finish a work that He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6). He is the Author and Finisher of that life, called faith (Hebrews 12:2), after we first believe. We are also told that when we first believe, that we're sealed with the Holy Spirit (the life) of promise, guaranteeing our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14). This is small sample. So there's a multitude of Scripture that can be used.

But where the confusion comes in for many is understanding that there are also many passages that speak of the evidences of our salvation, or lack of it. These evidences do not justify us, but evidence the reality of our faith, or lack of faith. It's more for us, because God already knows if our faith is genuine. From God's perspective, the reality is, that He never loses one who He has begun a work in, who love Him. From our perspective, we don't always have the luxury of knowing for sure. We look to the evidences, knowing that we are not perfect, but we can look to see the direction that we are heading, towards the world, or towards God. We trust in God's promises that if our love for Him is genuine, and we do evidence that in the way we live, then He will hold up His end of things as promised. So the doubt of the genuineness of our faith, or not, would come from us, because of what we have done, not because God has changed His mind about us.

Lutheranism and Calvinism were concerned to avoid the error of Pelagianism, the idea that we have within our nature the ability to independently produce righteousness and obtain Eternal Life. According to the Reformers we are predestined to Election by God, but once so Elected are free to make choices to exercise Faith and to Choose Salvation.

I agree that we cannot naturally produce righteousness, and we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, to justify ourselves. but once in Christ, and justified by His righteousness, then beginning to become what God already reckons us to be legally, that progressive righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit.

Election. This is where I part ways with the traditional reformers. I believe that Jesus was Elect, and we become elect with Him when we are placed into Him by faith.

Methodism held to the idea that people have Prevenient Grace and are able to produce Faith by our own works with the caveat that Christ's redemption is essential to the formula. Some explain this as operating together with Christ synergistically.

But a prevenient grace would still be grace, right? (Romans 11:6)

Arminius felt that conversion becomes real with Faith, and tends towards Perseverance, but nevertheless can be lost. Wesley believed the Arminian formula, but presented Instant Sanctification as a step beyond Nominal Christianity to indicate a more authentic Christian Conversion, or Rebirth.

I believe that we receive the life (through the indwelling Holy Spirit) as a result of our initial faith. But that life cannot be lost. Only the illusion that we had life can be lost. Which is a good thing if you don't want to be deceived and you want the real thing. The rebirth is the beginning of that life. Some reformers reverse that order, putting born again before the initial faith, or believing, but I disagree. First faith, then the indwelling (life that Jesus Authors and Finishes), which also makes us born again and justified.

Pentecostals saw Spirit Baptism as an important follow-up to Salvation, though like Methodist Sanctification seemed to confirm a real Conversion beyond Nominal Christianity. In reality, though, Nominal Christianity may represent a false Christianity, existing without a complete or true commitment to Christianity--less than a full Conversion.

I believe that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the 'placing into' Jesus Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the baptizer, the Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism. That baptism is initiated by faith. There was a unique point in time in history when believers had to wait for that placing into/baptism, as recorded in Acts. Jesus had do what He did, and ascend and be glorified first.

1 Corinthians 12:13

So, all of these theological systems called for a step beyond the Nominal Church to provide real evidence of a true Conversion, or Rebirth. They are just called by different names, authenticating true Conversion, whether it is described as the experience of Faith for Election, Instant Sanctification, or Spirit Baptism.

And whether one can lose his Salvation or not may depend on whether the one exercising Christian gifts is representative of a true Christian Conversion or not. Jesus said that men would say, "Lord, Lord," when they are displaying gifts but not fully committed to Christ.

It is debatable, I suppose, whether someone who has the gifts of Christianity is really Christian when he turns away from Christianity permanently? That's the thing with OSAS--it doesn't seem to make much difference either way. If a Christian acts like a Christian and is not, or acts like a Christian and is, and turns completely away, the result is the same--the person who had acted Christian completely turns away. Paul and Peter both called for Christians, with gifts, to prove whether they are the Elect.

Sometimes what appears to be good to us, does not appear that way to God. His standards are not our standards. He can see motives, everything, that would taint a good act and make it not righteous, but sin. That's us apart from Him.

The big deal with Reformation Theology and Predestination is whether it is Fatalistic or has Free Will, in some measure? Regardless, all agree that whether Prevenient Grace or Faith by Election, nobody works righteousness acceptable to God for Salvation unless it is done with Christ's Atonement providing for it legally and spiritually. Even Predestinarians who are somewhat Fatalistic do allow for some measure of Free Will--just not Pelagianism.

Maturing in the Christian life has nothing to do with obtaining Salvation, which is what some call "Progressive Sanctification." We are actually Sanctified by the Work of Christ at Salvation, though the process of maturation continues progressively over time.

I like to qualify the sanctification. Justification speaks of the legality of our salvation. So does "positional sanctification". Progressive sanctification, sometimes called practical sanctification, is our becoming what God already positionally reckons us to be when we are in Christ.

You did for half of it. Like this...your quote from above...rewritten...

"Maturing in the Christian life has nothing to do with obtaining justification, which is what some call "Positional Sanctification." We are actually positionally sanctified by the Work of Christ at conversion, though the practical sanctification, the process of maturation continues progressively over time."

I hate labels as they usually carry baggage, but there is a good side to them as they can be helpful in explaining a lot of stuff with very few words.

Anyways, some advise that I took a long time ago that has served me well, is not to get hung us on labels and confine yourself to theological camps. Don't be afraid to allow questions unanswered while you figure it out. To cling to tightly to these theological camps can make you, unknowingly begin to reverse engineer, or define Scripture with a system, instead of the other way around. Let the Bible form your opinions. You seem to be doing that already.

Dave

 

[randyk]

Hey Randy.

OSAS is a modern expression, but the idea of eternal security is everywhere in Scripture. Jesus promising that He will finish a work that He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6). He is the Author and Finisher of that life, called faith (Hebrews 12:2), after we first believe. We are also told that when we first believe, that we're sealed with the Holy Spirit (the life) of promise, guaranteeing our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14). This is small sample. So there's a multitude of Scripture that can be used.

But where the confusion comes in for many is understanding that there are also many passages that speak of the evidences of our salvation, or lack of it. These evidences do not justify us, but evidence the reality of our faith, or lack of faith. It's more for us, because God already knows if our faith is genuine. From God's perspective, the reality is, that He never loses one who He has begun a work in, who love Him. From our perspective, we don't always have the luxury of knowing for sure. We look to the evidences, knowing that we are not perfect, but we can look to see the direction that we are heading, towards the world, or towards God. We trust in God's promises that if our love for Him is genuine, and we do evidence that in the way we live, then He will hold up His end of things as promised. So the doubt of the genuineness of our faith, or not, would come from us, because of what we have done, not because God has changed His mind about us.



I agree that we cannot naturally produce righteousness, and we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, to justify ourselves. but once in Christ, and justified by His righteousness, then beginning to become what God already reckons us to be legally, that progressive righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit.

Election. This is where I part ways with the traditional reformers. I believe that Jesus was Elect, and we become elect with Him when we are placed into Him by faith.



But a prevenient grace would still be grace, right? (Romans 11:6)



I believe that we receive the life (through the indwelling Holy Spirit) as a result of our initial faith. But that life cannot be lost. Only the illusion that we had life can be lost. Which is a good thing if you don't want to be deceived and you want the real thing. The rebirth is the beginning of that life. Some reformers reverse that order, putting born again before the initial faith, or believing, but I disagree. First faith, then the indwelling (life that Jesus Authors and Finishes), which also makes us born again and justified.



I believe that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the 'placing into' Jesus Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the baptizer, the Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism. That baptism is initiated by faith. There was a unique point in time in history when believers had to wait for that placing into/baptism, as recorded in Acts. Jesus had do what He did, and ascend and be glorified first.

1 Corinthians 12:13



Sometimes what appears to be good to us, does not appear that way to God. His standards are not our standards. He can see motives, everything, that would taint a good act and make it not righteous, but sin. That's us apart from Him.



I like to qualify the sanctification. Justification speaks of the legality of our salvation. So does "positional sanctification". Progressive sanctification, sometimes called practical sanctification, is our becoming what God already positionally reckons us to be when we are in Christ.

You did for half of it. Like this...your quote from above...rewritten...

"Maturing in the Christian life has nothing to do with obtaining justification, which is what some call "Positional Sanctification." We are actually positionally sanctified by the Work of Christ at conversion, though the practical sanctification, the process of maturation continues progressively over time."

I hate labels as they usually carry baggage, but there is a good side to them as they can be helpful in explaining a lot of stuff with very few words.

Anyways, some advise that I took a long time ago that has served me well, is not to get hung us on labels and confine yourself to theological camps. Don't be afraid to allow questions unanswered while you figure it out. To cling to tightly to these theological camps can make you, unknowingly begin to reverse engineer, or define Scripture with a system, instead of the other way around. Let the Bible form your opinions. You seem to be doing that already.

Dave

Well thought out! I agree with most all of what you say--and I'm not sure that in any part there is much difference, if at all.

 

[Blade]

"argue on this topic," forgive me yet you bring it up. Pffft... there is no OSAS in Gods word. There is no "you can lose your salvation" in Gods word. Its just speculation and personal belief. One can say some are secure in their faith others are not. .. we can keep speculating all day. Seems the boundaries so to speak are set based on someone's personal belief. You know.. I read Gods word I just have to now share and show how others are wrong and mislead.. I have the real truth. We read the same scriptures and yet I fully understand them more then others.. No I don't lol

Have to go by His word.. we as He said in Samuel can not see the heart.. no matter how they act talk .. the heart can be 100% the flip side of all they say. He that has begun a good word in you.. HE is GOD.. HE gave His word that who so ever believes in Yeshua/Jesus Christ will have ever lasting life. You don't like the some act in Church or talk or dress or the gifts... you only hinder Him in your life.

Trust Him.. that If HE said it .. HE will do. GOD will not be faithful to what you do.. God is faithful to what Christ has done on the Cross. God is faithful to His word. See God does not need us and yes God can do all this with us.. haha He is the great I AM and there is nothing impossible with Him. He chooses to uses us. So we pray for those weak in the faith.. those stuck in sin those missing it those that ( have to.. the song.. I am thankful for your scars) have some silly doctrine that does not touch salvation. And those rich those poor.. we pray for we lift them up we never give up on them...since He has before you even believed.. never gave up never will on you..do the same for those we don't know we don't agree with. Those that know Jesus came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin.. was buried and rose the 3rd day .. seated at the right hand of the Father.. the only way to the Father..

You don't know me.. so i can share not boast.. was driving with my wife.. saw this elderly woman trying to pick up this bag by her house.. I had been driving by when there was so much snow and saw her trying to shovel her walk.. like that time and with others.. asked if she needed help.. she said yes. She has to move from her home she was telling me.. has been dizzy prayed in Jesus name.. perfect balance.. found she loved the lord and all this to say.. she looked up and said.. "I just wanna go home"

Love them... leave all the problems the things you don't like.. the weight of it all at His feet.. see all the good.. do you believe in trust in Him.. that is what matters..

 

[randyk]

"argue on this topic," forgive me yet you bring it up. Pffft... there is no OSAS in Gods word. There is no "you can lose your salvation" in Gods word. Its just speculation and personal belief.

Thank you for your opinion. There are passages that seem to indicate OSAS and there are passages some use to indicate there is no such thing. Many find it important to have assurance one way or the other.

 

[Bible_Locket]

If we can lose our Salvation by our will and behaviors,when God tells us,we do not obtain Salvation by our doing,but by his grace,then God is a liar. And our will surpasses his.

That's precisely what opponents of God's free irrevocable grace gift of eternal irrevocable Salvation are saying. In their own way, but as that express message.

It is Satanic. The adverse of God's truth.

Jesus said during his ministry, we are eternally his. No one will take us from his hand.

Those who are mortal flesh committed believe their will surpasses that.
And Jesus didn't mean what he said.


Because those opponents of eternal irrevocable Salvation are fixed upon their belief human will and action eviscerates God's will and bestowal of grace.

There can be no debate between the Christian and the flesh worshippers.
No thing in the Bible will ever,ever,change their mind.

Because no thing in the Bible sustains their carnal reverence for human will over that of God.

 

[randyk]

If we can lose our Salvation by our will and behaviors,when God tells us,we do not obtain Salvation by our doing,but by his grace,then God is a liar. And our will surpasses his.

That's precisely what opponents of God's free irrevocable grace gift of eternal irrevocable Salvation are saying. In their own way, but as that express message.

It is Satanic. The adverse of God's truth.

Jesus said during his ministry, we are eternally his. No one will take us from his hand.

Those who are mortal flesh committed believe their will surpasses that.
And Jesus didn't mean what he said.


Because those opponents of eternal irrevocable Salvation are fixed upon their belief human will and action eviscerates God's will and bestowal of grace.

There can be no debate between the Christian and the flesh worshippers.
No thing in the Bible will ever,ever,change their mind.

Because no thing in the Bible sustains their carnal reverence for human will over that of God.

I'm an advocate of both Free Will and Divine Election. We cannot be Saved unless God initiates the action. So, apparently we agree--at least to some degree.

I just won't go calling those who are Arminian "Satanic." I think they are basing their views on the perception that Free Will allows all to be God's Elect. But if God initiates Election, then those who do not choose for it are the product of human Free Will gone awry--not God's general will that all be Saved.

 

[Bible_Locket]

I'm an advocate of both Free Will and Divine Election. We cannot be Saved unless God initiates the action. So, apparently we agree--at least to some degree.

I just won't go calling those who are Arminian "Satanic." I think they are basing their views on the perception that Free Will allows all to be God's Elect. But if God initiates Election, then those who do not choose for it are the product of human Free Will gone awry--not God's general will that all be Saved.

It is Satanic though. Arminianism is antithetical to Scripture.

 

[lrs68]

Catch 22!

To be saved and walk away has an opposing viewpoint that person was never saved to begin with.

But to live like the devil and claim that one is saved makes God a liar because we're supposed to grow and become better than how we were.

The entire argument is bunk.

 

[Dave123]

@lrs68 @Bible_Locket @Blade

God's seal of the Holy Spirit can only be broken by Him or one He appoints. That's the significance of the seal. It's God's seal. Just like the seal on the cave where Jesus' body was laid for three days (Matthew 27:66). The Romans soldiers guarding that cave would lose their lives if that seal was broken. Only the king or those who he appoints as an authority can break that seal. If you have the seal of the Holy Spirit, you have the Spirit in you, and you have the life. This is God's guarantee. You cannot break that seal, nor would a true believer want to. That's eternal security.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

For a person to lose their salvation, it's not just us failing, it's God failing, and not being able to uphold His guarantee. Not being able to finish the work He started in us (Philippians 1:6), even though He said that He would.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


Dave

 

[2Christ]

Thank you for your opinion. There are passages that seem to indicate OSAS and there are passages some use to indicate there is no such thing. Many find it important to have assurance one way or the other.

What is the truth of the matter, surely one ls false both cannot be right.

 

[timf]

Those saved by the kingdom gospel for the nation of Israel could lose salvation if they did not endure to the end.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Those saved by the grace gospel of Paul are sealed with the Holy Spirit and do not lose salvation.

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Bible_Locket]

@lrs68 @Bible_Locket @Blade

God's seal of the Holy Spirit can only be broken by Him or one He appoints. That's the significance of the seal. It's God's seal. Just like the seal on the cave where Jesus' body was laid for three days (Matthew 27:66). The Romans soldiers guarding that cave would lose their lives if that seal was broken. Only the king or those who he appoints as an authority can break that seal. If you have the seal of the Holy Spirit, you have the Spirit in you, and you have the life. This is God's guarantee. You cannot break that seal, nor would a true believer want to. That's eternal security.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

For a person to lose their salvation, it's not just us failing, it's God failing, and not being able to uphold His guarantee. Not being able to finish the work He started in us (Philippians 1:6), even though He said that He would.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


Dave

True.
And God will never break that seal.
Irrevocable Salvation means precisely what God decrees.

Who in Christ insists they really aren't?

 

[randyk]

What is the truth of the matter, surely one ls false both cannot be right.

Problem is, people are at different levels of growth, education, and intellect. There are bound to be honest errors.

Even for those who study, sometimes there are ulterior motives, whether pride, friends, schools, etc. There can even been blatant dishonesty.

But yes, there should be the ability to see the truth of any doctrinal matter. Just don't expect consensus across the board.

 

[2Christ]

Those saved by the kingdom gospel for the nation of Israel could lose salvation if they did not endure to the end.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Those saved by the grace gospel of Paul are sealed with the Holy Spirit and do not lose salvation.

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

so you declare the gospel of Paul the only one that can save? what about the gospel of Jesus the son pf God? can grace alone save you? what is grace exactly simply believing or is it more? What did Jesus say for one to have eternal life? did not Jesus say we who believe in Him must endure to the end? does what our Lord say matter anymore?

What is this kingdom gospel for the nation of Israel? Jesus was sent to be a light to the gentiles and no only the jews, did you not know?

 

[2Christ]

True.
And God will never break that seal.
Irrevocable Salvation means precisely what God decrees.

Who in Christ insists they really aren't?

Who Is Sealed, Why, and When?​

You are making a very strong conclusion from the word “sealed,” but there is an important question that must be answered first: Who is sealed, why are they sealed, and when are they sealed?

The seal of God certainly means that something belongs to God and is under His authority. But the existence of a seal does not automatically prove that a person can never afterward reject God. Look at what Jesus Himself said. Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice and follow Him: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” (John 10:27-28 NKJV) Notice the description: they hear His voice and they follow Him.

esus gave an even stronger warning when He described Himself as the vine and His disciples as branches:

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” (John 15:2 NKJV)

So we have to ask: If being “in Christ” automatically meant that falling away was impossible, why would Jesus warn His own disciples about failing to abide in Him?

“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13 NKJV)

So the biblical picture is not simply: Believe once → automatically sealed forever → nothing can ever change.

The pattern as it appears in scripture is: Hear Christ → believe → repent → obey → receive the Holy Spirit → abide in Christ → bear fruit → endure to the end.

And this is important: the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee, but a guarantee is not permission to abandon Christ.

The very fact that the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth should make us take Jesus' warnings seriously. Jesus said: If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15 NKJV)

He also said: If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10 NKJV)

Please consider . The example of the Roman seal on Jesus' tomb does not prove the doctrine being claimed. Matthew 27:66 simply says: “So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.” (Matthew 27:66 NKJV)

The passage does not say that the seal could only be broken by the Roman emperor or that nobody else could ever break it. And, most importantly, the stone was not the thing that prevented God from raising Jesus. So the analogy cannot establish eternal security.

The better question is: What did Jesus say about His own disciples?

Jesus repeatedly told His followers to abide, keep His commandments, bear fruit, watch, endure, and overcome.

He even gave this warning:

“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.” (Revelation 2:5 NKJV)

And to another church:

“Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10 NKJV)

So I would not say that God is weak, that His guarantee can fail, or that God cannot preserve those who belong to Him.

Rather, I would say this: God is faithful. His promise is sure. But Jesus never taught that a person may abandon Him, stop abiding in Him, reject His commandments, and still claim salvation because they were once sealed. do you think any king of desobedience to GOD commands will be permitted in heaven? surely Not!

The question is not whether God can keep His promise.

The question is whether we will remain faithful in Christ and love him with all our might and endure to the end.

And on that question, perhaps we should listen first to the One who will judge us: But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46 NKJV)

That is Jesus speaking. And His words deserve to be heard before we build our doctrine from anyone else's writings.

 

[2Christ]

Problem is, people are at different levels of growth, education, and intellect. There are bound to be honest errors.

Even for those who study, sometimes there are ulterior motives, whether pride, friends, schools, etc. There can even been blatant dishonesty.

But yes, there should be the ability to see the truth of any doctrinal matter. Just don't expect consensus across the board.

yes you are right if course, but what pains me deeply to my core is that many do not know what Jesus said, that one is hard to swallow, they remember his name and the cross in general but the rest they ignore, yet Jesus said so much and wants to save us all but as he said few will make it. I am trying to teach about Jesus but few listen. it is a very hard task and many rebel against what Jesus actually said clearly.

 

[randyk]

yes you are right if course, but what pains me deeply to my core is that many do not know what Jesus said, that one is hard to swallow, they remember his name and the cross in general but the rest they ignore, yet Jesus said so much and wants to save us all but as he said few will make it. I am trying to teach about Jesus but few listen. it is a very hard task and many rebel against what Jesus actually said clearly.

Though you're right that so many are failing in some way, I prefer to hope that many will make it despite their many problems. I'm glad you're looking out for yourself!

 

[Bible_Locket]

Who Is Sealed, Why, and When?​

You are making a very strong conclusion from the word “sealed,” but there is an important question that must be answered first: Who is sealed, why are they sealed, and when are they sealed?

The seal of God certainly means that something belongs to God and is under His authority. But the existence of a seal does not automatically prove that a person can never afterward reject God. Look at what Jesus Himself said. Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice and follow Him: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” (John 10:27-28 NKJV) Notice the description: they hear His voice and they follow Him.

esus gave an even stronger warning when He described Himself as the vine and His disciples as branches:

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” (John 15:2 NKJV)

So we have to ask: If being “in Christ” automatically meant that falling away was impossible, why would Jesus warn His own disciples about failing to abide in Him?

“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13 NKJV)

So the biblical picture is not simply: Believe once → automatically sealed forever → nothing can ever change.

The pattern as it appears in scripture is: Hear Christ → believe → repent → obey → receive the Holy Spirit → abide in Christ → bear fruit → endure to the end.

And this is important: the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee, but a guarantee is not permission to abandon Christ.

The very fact that the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth should make us take Jesus' warnings seriously. Jesus said: If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15 NKJV)

He also said: If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10 NKJV)

Please consider . The example of the Roman seal on Jesus' tomb does not prove the doctrine being claimed. Matthew 27:66 simply says: “So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.” (Matthew 27:66 NKJV)

The passage does not say that the seal could only be broken by the Roman emperor or that nobody else could ever break it. And, most importantly, the stone was not the thing that prevented God from raising Jesus. So the analogy cannot establish eternal security.

The better question is: What did Jesus say about His own disciples?

Jesus repeatedly told His followers to abide, keep His commandments, bear fruit, watch, endure, and overcome.

He even gave this warning:

“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.” (Revelation 2:5 NKJV)

And to another church:

“Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10 NKJV)

So I would not say that God is weak, that His guarantee can fail, or that God cannot preserve those who belong to Him.

Rather, I would say this: God is faithful. His promise is sure. But Jesus never taught that a person may abandon Him, stop abiding in Him, reject His commandments, and still claim salvation because they were once sealed. do you think any king of desobedience to GOD commands will be permitted in heaven? surely Not!

The question is not whether God can keep His promise.

The question is whether we will remain faithful in Christ and love him with all our might and endure to the end.

And on that question, perhaps we should listen first to the One who will judge us: But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46 NKJV)

That is Jesus speaking. And His words deserve to be heard before we build our doctrine from anyone else's writings.

I am not Pauline. I do not believe Paul's gospel,as he referred to his teachings at least 11 times in his letters, save us.

God saves us. The Gospel of Jesus tells us how.
No one comes to Jesus until God calls them by his grace. We who are called feel a resonance in reading or hearing his Good News preached.

We recognize ourselves and our sins, and the need to cleanse ourselves of them so to be renewed.

We can only arrive at this understanding because that understanding is discerned spiritually.

Not by human rationality. Because, as God tells us, our worldly human nature, intellect, cannot understand the things of God.
Because they are spiritually discerned.

We are then sealed the moment we believe.
Because God's holy spirit enters in and allows us to understand his Gospel.
Which is the only way we are ever able to understand and believe it.

And in that moment ,as God says,we are sealed by his will. A permanent guarantee of our eternal inheritance.


It is never broken. It is never cancelled. It is irrevocable because Omniscient God,who knew us before the womb and wrote our name in his Lamb's Book of Eternal Life,before he created this world.

Any teaching that insists we can remove his seal by our choice or behavior and return to the state of sinner damned in sin and spiritually dead,is a lie.

 

[NightTwister]

Those saved by the kingdom gospel for the nation of Israel could lose salvation if they did not endure to the end.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Those saved by the grace gospel of Paul are sealed with the Holy Spirit and do not lose salvation.

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The"good news" of Paul? I don't find that in my Bible.