OSAS, When does salvation take place?

[Drich]

You argue Matthew 7 proves salvation is decided at judgment because Jesus says “I never knew you.”

This is only 1/2 of what I am communicating. The other 1/2 points to these men that Jesus never knew as being 100% Christian in their own minds. They did everything they knew to do EXCEPT the will of the Father. Which is summed up in luke 10's love command.

But notice, Jesus does not say, “I knew you once but changed My mind.”,

Indeed. Take another look at how they address Jesus. They cry out Lord, Lord. Again in this culture, at that time to repeat the title "Lord, Lord" was an emphatic recognition of Jesus as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The only people calling out to Jesus with this assuredness are those who follow Him/christians.

So assume that these men (Many men) believe that are 100% the real deal christian most of which even performed miracles. Yet Jesus states that He never knew them meaning Nothing they did as 'christians' saved them. As salvation is not a work. It is not something we do. It is a free gift from God that is imparted to us at judgment.

If these men where saved when they made their confession of faith or where baptized or did whatever you think needs to happen to be saved, then Jesus could never say to anyone who follows your plan of salvation "I never knew you."

When Jesus said I never knew you He is saying that none of your beliefs in what it takes to be saved mean anything. Because salvation is not something we can compel Jesus to do. Rather it is a choice He makes and reveals to us on our judgment.

“I waited until judgment to decide.”, “You were almost saved but failed the test.”

That is a simply way of looking at it.. But it's not really a test as God knew your results before you where born. Life is more of a demonstration/proving ground. we have been given this life to live out what god already knows you will choose and do. so that when you are judged and punished or rewarded, you will know and understand why

“I never knew you” means: They were never saved at any point.

No, duh.. I'm trying to get you to think about that a little deeper. In that these men think they are christian. The fact that they think they are christian means they like you have done everything they think they need to do to be saved. So they've done everything you have done, but unlike you deny the love requirement found in luke 10. (You have an all encompassing love for God and a love for their neighbor equal to the love they have for yourself, but they do not.) Because they do not have an all encompassing love for God or a love for their neighbor. Their plans of salvation/baptism mean nothing. Which is why Christ proclaims "Away from me evil doer, I never knew you,"

Matthew 7 exposes false assurance, not delayed salvation.

So if these men in life did everything the gospel as you understand it demands, but do not have love for their neighbors then as Jesus points out they where never saved. (I never knew you) Even though clearly they thought they where.

This means the steps of salvation we take to be saved does not save us. Only Jesus can save us. This salvation is revealed to us on the day of our judgement.

 

[Drich]

You argue “saved by grace” refers only to future salvation.

Nope.

I argue that salvation happens when Every Christ decides. That decision is made known to us on the day we are judged.

But Paul uses perfect tense: “You have been saved.” (σεσῳσμένοι ἐστε)
Perfect tense = completed action with ongoing results.
Paul is not saying:
“You will be saved later.”
“You are candidates for salvation.”
“You are waiting for judgment.”
He is saying: “You are already saved now.”

So how do you know you are not one of those lost souls in mat 7 who thinks they have been saved but Christ will say "I never knew you?" Have you met the love requirement of Luke 10?

How can their be a gospel without love? How can one be saved without love? If one does not exhibit love for thier neighbor, why should God show them love?

 

[Drich]

You argue Luke 10 proves love is the requirement for salvation. But Scripture teaches love is evidence of salvation (1 John 3:14)
love is fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) love fulfills the Law (Romans 13:10)
If perfect love were the requirement, no one would be saved.
Grace would be irrelevant, the cross would be unnecessary.
Jesus uses the Law to expose inability, not to give a requirement.

you get all of this works for my side of the argument as well right?

Love is the evidence of salvation. Love is the fruit of the Spirit. Love full fills the law etc etc.. I don't think you understand that I am not saying salvation is impossible. I'm saying it is impossible without love. Without love it is NOT possible to go through all of the steps of salvation and be saved.

The men in mat 7 who Jesus Never knew, clearly went through ALL of the steps of salvation, that they knew to go through, but did not "do the will of the Father" which is given to us in the law. The same law that Jesus said is made complete when you love God with all of your ability to do so, and when you love your neighbor as yourself.

Without love there is no salvation. If you believe there is, then please provide book chapter and verse that shows a soul entering into God's kingdom who has no love for God or his neighbor, but responded to the gospel.

 

[OMC]

Nope.

I argue that salvation happens when Every Christ decides. That decision is made known to us on the day we are judged.


So how do you know you are not one of those lost souls in mat 7 who thinks they have been saved but Christ will say "I never knew you?" Have you met the love requirement of Luke 10?

How can their be a gospel without love? How can one be saved without love? If one does not exhibit love for thier neighbor, why should God show them love?

Scripture teaches that assurance comes from Christ’s promise, not from your performance, love is the fruit of salvation, not the basis of salvation and Matthew 7 warns against false confidence rooted in works, not against true believers who trust Christ.
I’ll answer each of your questions directly from Scripture, with precise Greek and theological clarity.
1. Salvation happens when Christ decides, and we only find out at judgment.
This is not what Scripture teaches. Paul uses perfect tense: σεσῳσμένοι ἐστε — “You have been saved.” (Eph 2:8)
Perfect tense = completed action with ongoing results.
Scripture repeatedly says believers already possess salvation:
“He who believes has eternal life.” — John 6:47
“We have passed from death to life.” — 1 John 3:14
“There is now no condemnation.” — Rom 8:1
“You have been justified.” — Rom 5:1
Judgment Day does not decide salvation. Judgment Day reveals salvation.
This is the entire point of John 5:24: “He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
You cannot “find out later” if you have already “passed from death to life.”

2. How do you know you’re not one of those in Matthew 7?​

Scripture gives a clear answer:

Matthew 7 people trust in their works​

They say: “Did we not… do many mighty works?”​

They appeal to their performance, not Christ.

True believers trust Christ alone​

Paul says: “We boast in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.” — Phil 3:3

C. True believers are known by Christ​

Jesus says: “I know My sheep.” — John 10:14“I give them eternal life.” — John 10:28“I will never cast them out.” — John 6:37
The question is not: “Have I done enough?”
The question is: “Do I trust Christ alone?”
Those in Matthew 7 never trusted Christ.They trusted their works.
That is why He says: “I never knew you.” Not: “I knew you once but you failed the love requirement.”

3. “Have you met the love requirement of Luke 10?”​

No human has. That is the point. Luke 10 is Law, not Gospel.
Jesus quotes Leviticus 18:5: “Do this and you will live.”
Meaning: “If you want to earn eternal life by the Law, you must love perfectly.”
But Scripture says:
“By works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” — Gal 2:16
“The Law was our tutor to lead us to Christ.” — Gal 3:24
“If righteousness were through the Law, Christ died for nothing.” — Gal 2:21
Luke 10 is Jesus exposing the lawyer’s inability, not giving a salvation formula.
If Luke 10 were the requirement for salvation, no one would be saved.

4. “How can there be a Gospel without love?”​

There cannot. But Scripture is explicit:

Love is the result of salvation, not the basis of salvation.​

“We love because He first loved us.” — 1 John 4:19
“The love of God has been poured out in our hearts.” — Rom 5:5
“The fruit of the Spirit is love.” — Gal 5:22
Love is produced by the Spirit after salvation. It is not the condition that earns salvation.

5. “How can one be saved without love?”​

There is no example of salvation without love. But there is also no example of love earning salvation.

6. “If one does not exhibit love for their neighbor, why should God show them love?”​

Because God’s love is not a response to human love.
God’s love precedes human love, “God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” — Rom 5:8
God does not love us because we love Him. We love Him because He loved us first.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and love is the necessary fruit that proves salvation is real.​

 

[OMC]

you get all of this works for my side of the argument as well right?

Love is the evidence of salvation. Love is the fruit of the Spirit. Love full fills the law etc etc.. I don't think you understand that I am not saying salvation is impossible. I'm saying it is impossible without love. Without love it is NOT possible to go through all of the steps of salvation and be saved.

The men in mat 7 who Jesus Never knew, clearly went through ALL of the steps of salvation, that they knew to go through, but did not "do the will of the Father" which is given to us in the law. The same law that Jesus said is made complete when you love God with all of your ability to do so, and when you love your neighbor as yourself.

Without love there is no salvation. If you believe there is, then please provide book chapter and verse that shows a soul entering into God's kingdom who has no love for God or his neighbor, but responded to the gospel.

You are absolutely right that no one enters the kingdom without love. Scripture teaches that love is necessary, unavoidable, and universal among the saved.
But Scripture also teaches—just as clearly—that love is the fruit of salvation, not the requirement that produces salvation.
Your argument succeeds on the necessity of love. It fails on the timing and function of love.

 

[Drich]

You argue “saved by grace” refers only to future salvation.

You are incorrect here. Eph 2 is referring to the mechanism of salvation not point in time when one is saved.

Meaning the mechanism that provides for salvation is grace. In contrast to the old covenant where works was the mechanism that was looked at to determine reward status.

But Paul uses perfect tense: “You have been saved.” (σεσῳσμένοι ἐστε)
Perfect tense = completed action with ongoing results.
Paul is not saying:
“You will be saved later.”
“You are candidates for salvation.”
“You are waiting for judgment.”
He is saying: “You are already saved now.”

irrelevant as again Paul is referring to the mechanism that saves those who are to be 'saved.'
So, Again what saves the saved is Grace, and not works so no man can boast. Look at the context of the rest of that paragraph in eph 2. The whole message speaks to how one is saved/what mechanism not when salvation is imparted to us/made known to us.. Your "perfect tense" argument is little more than a red herring to distract from the context of this passage.

Your whole argument falls apart when the full context of scripture is reintroduced.

 

[Drich]

You argue Romans 8:1 supports your view.
But Paul says: “There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.”
If salvation only occurs at judgment there is condemnation now and there is uncertainty now, there is no assurance now, union with Christ is not yet real, the Spirit does not yet indwell.
Your model makes Paul’s statement impossible.

I did not say salvation only happens on judgment day. I said salvation happen when Christ judges us. For most our salvation is revealed to us on judgement day.

 

[OMC]

You are incorrect here. Eph 2 is referring to the mechanism of salvation not point in time when one is saved.

Meaning the mechanism that provides for salvation is grace. In contrast to the old covenant where works was the mechanism that was looked at to determine reward status.

irrelevant as again Paul is referring to the mechanism that saves those who are to be 'saved.'
So, Again what saves the saved is Grace, and not works so no man can boast. Look at the context of the rest of that paragraph in eph 2. The whole message speaks to how one is saved/what mechanism not when salvation is imparted to us/made known to us.. Your "perfect tense" argument is little more than a red herring to distract from the context of this passage.

Your whole argument falls apart when the full context of scripture is reintroduced.

You’re pushing on something real—the distinction between mechanism and timing—but Eph 2 simply will not let you separate them the way you’re trying to.
Paul is not only saying how God saves (by grace, not works); he is also saying that God has already saved those he’s addressing.
Eph 2:8–9 is not just “mechanism”; it explicitly asserts present, completed salvation. ᾿Εστε σεσῳσμένοι τῇ χάριτί “You have been saved by grace” Perfect periphrastic: σεσῳσμένοι (perfect participle) ἐστε (present of εἰμί)
That construction is not abstract mechanism; it is state-of-being language:
“You are ones who stand in the condition of having been saved.”
If Paul meant only “the mechanism that will someday save you is grace,” he could have used:
future: σωθήσεσθε
aorist gnomic: σωθῆναι ἐστίν διὰ χάριτος
But he doesn’t. He uses perfect—completed act, abiding result.
And he reinforces it in the same passage: “even when we were dead… He made us alive together with Christ” (2:5)“and raised us up with Him” (2:6)“and seated us with Him in the heavenly places” (2:6)
All aorists describing already‑accomplished saving acts, not merely mechanisms.
The context of Eph 2 is not “how salvation works in principle,” but “what has already happened to you.”
Look at the flow:
Past state:
“You were dead in trespasses and sins” (2:1)
“We were by nature children of wrath” (2:3)

Divine intervention:
“But God… made us alive” (2:4–5)
“raised us up” (2:6)
“seated us” (2:6)

Present state:
“You have been saved by grace” (2:8)
“We are His workmanship” (2:10)

Paul is not describing a mechanism waiting to be applied at judgment. He is describing a completed transition from death to life, wrath to grace, earthbound to seated‑with‑Christ.

Your “mechanism only” reading collapses under Paul’s own language.
You say: “Eph 2 is referring to the mechanism of salvation not point in time when one is saved.”
But Paul explicitly ties time and mechanism together: “When we were dead… He made us alive… by grace you have been saved.”
The “when” (ὄντας νεκρούς) and the “by grace” (τῇ χάριτι) are not separable:
The making alive is the saving.
The saving is by grace.
The saving by grace is already accomplished.
If “saved by grace” were only a mechanism, then:
“made alive” would also be only a mechanism.
“raised up” would only be a mechanism.
“seated” would only be a mechanism.
But Paul uses them as realized facts of the believers’ present identity.
"Judgment in Scripture reveals salvation; it does not first impart it."
You’re implicitly saying: “Salvation is decided by Christ and only made known at judgment.”
But Jesus says: “He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” — John 5:24
Three perfective realities:
has eternal life
does not come into judgment
has passed from death to life
Judgment is not the moment salvation is conferred, it is the moment salvation is vindicated and manifested.
“Your perfect tense argument is a red herring.”
If the perfect tense were a minor nuance, I’d agree it could be overplayed. But in Eph 2, it is central to Paul’s pastoral point:
He wants the Ephesians to know they already stand in a saved state, that this state is by grace, and that works are excluded as the basis. Your reading turns: “You have been saved by grace”, into: “The mechanism that will someday save you is grace.”
That is not what the Greek says, and not what the context supports.
Where your model breaks against “the full context of scripture”
You’re right to insist on:
love as necessary,
law as fulfilled in love,
grace as the mechanism.
But you’re wrong in these two moves:
You relocate salvation from present reality to future decision.
Scripture: salvation is already possessed by believers.
You make love part of the condition for obtaining salvation rather than the fruit of having been saved.
Scripture: love is fruit of the Spirit, evidence of having passed from death to life.
So yes—grace is the mechanism. But that grace, when applied, actually saves, and Paul speaks of that saving as already accomplished for those in Christ.

 

[Drich]

You argue Romans 13:11 proves believers are not yet saved.
But salvation has three tenses:
Past — justification
Present — sanctification
Future — glorification
Romans 13:11 refers to the future aspect, not the past.
Believers are already justified. They are awaiting glorification.

common bro, I know romans 13:11 is a problem for you, but you are denying what the passage says. let's look at it plainly:

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Our salvation is nearer now... Then when we first believed.

your 'perfect tense' will not save you, because the perfect tense is now a future tense.
Paul is addressing his congregation at Rome and is speaking to a crowed of believers who at some point in the past confirmed their salvation through what ever gospel call Paul taught, yet He clearly is telling them that their salvation is closer now... Than when they first believed.

I want you to notice that every one of your verses comes from a verse fragment then is pair with your commentary. You take 1/2 a verse, rip it out of it's original context, and add to the verse from your personal beliefs/church's doctrine. so Nothing you quote is straight from scripture. There is always a level of filler needed to get from what the verse says on it's own to what you are arguing. Meaning one can not read from the list of verses you provide and automatically come to the same conclusion you teach.

Where as I took two complete unaltered verses from Romans 13 starting at verse 11 and with a straight forward honest read, anyone can come to the same conclusion I have been espousing. That Paul in this chapter is stating that His congregation of believers who have confirmed their belief is now (at the time of his letter to the church n Rome) closer to their salvation than they where when they first believed.

If you can't read from whole contextual verses in the bible, and get the same message you are claiming the passages you are ripping from verse fragments is teaching.. Then you are not teaching from God's word but from the doctrines of man. Which is clearly loosely based on scripture but not grounded in scripture. To be grounded in scripture means to not have to add your commentary for a passage to make sense.

 

[Drich]

I'm getting ready to go home for the day and will be back tomorrow.

 

[Cameron143]

common bro, I know romans 13:11 is a problem for you, but you are denying what the passage says. let's look at it plainly:

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Our salvation is nearer now... Then when we first believed.

your 'perfect tense' will not save you, because the perfect tense is now a future tense.
Paul is addressing his congregation at Rome and is speaking to a crowed of believers who at some point in the past confirmed their salvation through what ever gospel call Paul taught, yet He clearly is telling them that their salvation is closer now... Than when they first believed.

I want you to notice that every one of your verses comes from a verse fragment then is pair with your commentary. You take 1/2 a verse, rip it out of it's original context, and add to the verse from your personal beliefs/church's doctrine. so Nothing you quote is straight from scripture. There is always a level of filler needed to get from what the verse says on it's own to what you are arguing. Meaning one can not read from the list of verses you provide and automatically come to the same conclusion you teach.

Where as I took two complete unaltered verses from Romans 13 starting at verse 11 and with a straight forward honest read, anyone can come to the same conclusion I have been espousing. That Paul in this chapter is stating that His congregation of believers who have confirmed their belief is now (at the time of his letter to the church n Rome) closer to their salvation than they where when they first believed.

If you can't read from whole contextual verses in the bible, and get the same message you are claiming the passages you are ripping from verse fragments is teaching.. Then you are not teaching from God's word but from the doctrines of man. Which is clearly loosely based on scripture but not grounded in scripture. To be grounded in scripture means to not have to add your commentary for a passage to make sense.

What day is at hand in Romans 13:12?

 

[OMC]

common bro, I know romans 13:11 is a problem for you, but you are denying what the passage says. let's look at it plainly:

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Our salvation is nearer now... Then when we first believed.

your 'perfect tense' will not save you, because the perfect tense is now a future tense.
Paul is addressing his congregation at Rome and is speaking to a crowed of believers who at some point in the past confirmed their salvation through what ever gospel call Paul taught, yet He clearly is telling them that their salvation is closer now... Than when they first believed.

I want you to notice that every one of your verses comes from a verse fragment then is pair with your commentary. You take 1/2 a verse, rip it out of it's original context, and add to the verse from your personal beliefs/church's doctrine. so Nothing you quote is straight from scripture. There is always a level of filler needed to get from what the verse says on it's own to what you are arguing. Meaning one can not read from the list of verses you provide and automatically come to the same conclusion you teach.

Where as I took two complete unaltered verses from Romans 13 starting at verse 11 and with a straight forward honest read, anyone can come to the same conclusion I have been espousing. That Paul in this chapter is stating that His congregation of believers who have confirmed their belief is now (at the time of his letter to the church n Rome) closer to their salvation than they where when they first believed.

If you can't read from whole contextual verses in the bible, and get the same message you are claiming the passages you are ripping from verse fragments is teaching.. Then you are not teaching from God's word but from the doctrines of man. Which is clearly loosely based on scripture but not grounded in scripture. To be grounded in scripture means to not have to add your commentary for a passage to make sense.

You’re reading Romans 13:11 seriously—which I respect. Let’s do the same with the rest of Paul and let Paul define his own terms.
I’ll start with Romans 13:11, then show how it fits with the other “salvation” texts you’re pushing against.
Romans 13:11 “And do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.”
what kind of “salvation” is nearer?
They already believed in the past.
Their salvation is still future and “nearer.”
So what does Paul mean by “salvation” here?
He tells you in the very next verse: “The night is far gone; the day is at hand.” — Rom 13:12
“Day” in Paul is consistently the eschatological day—the day of Christ, the day of judgment, the day of final revelation and glorification. So in Romans 13:11, “salvation” = final, eschatological salvation (glorification, full deliverance), not initial justification/regeneration.
That’s not me adding commentary—that’s Paul’s own flow:
v.11: salvation nearer
v.12: the day is at hand
v.13–14: therefore live in holiness
He is saying: “You believed in the past; the final day of salvation is closer now; live accordingly.”
You’re treating “salvation” as a single-time-point word. Scripture doesn’t.

Past (already accomplished)​

“You have been saved by grace through faith.” — Eph 2:8​

“He saved us, not by works of righteousness which we have done.” — Titus 3:5​

Present (ongoing experience)​

“The word of the cross… to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” — 1 Cor 1:18​

Future (final consummation)​

“Our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.” — Rom 13:11​

“Who are kept by the power of God… for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” — 1 Pet 1:5​

Same word, different stages:
Justification/regeneration: already done.
Sanctification: ongoing.
Glorification: future.
Romans 13:11 is about glorification, not denying the reality of justification already possessed.
You say my “perfect tense” is now a future tense. Paul doesn’t
Ephesians 2: “You were dead…But God… made us alive…and raised us up…and seated us with Him…For by grace you have been saved…” — Eph 2:1–8
That’s not mechanism-only language; it’s status language:
You were X
God did Y
You now are Z
Romans 13:11 does not undo Ephesians 2. It adds the future dimension of salvation on top of the present reality.
Already saved → yet salvation (in its final form) still nearer.
You accused me of using half-verses and filling with doctrine. Let’s look at one of the key ones in full.
John 5:24: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Mehas eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
No fragments. Full verse. Three assertions:
Has eternal life (present possession).
Does not come into judgment (future exemption).
Has passed out of death into life (completed transition).
Romans 13:11 speaks of the nearness of the day; John 5:24 speaks of the security of the believer on that day.
They are not in conflict. They are two sides of the same eschatological coin.
What Romans 13:11 does prove is, there is a future aspect of salvation (final day, glorification). Believers are to live in holiness because that day is near. It does not prove:
That believers are not already saved in any sense.
That justification/regeneration are postponed to judgment.
That “saved by grace” is only mechanism and not present reality.
Romans 13:11 is about the nearness of the final day, not the denial of present salvation.
You’re right that:
Salvation has a future dimension.
Romans 13:11 speaks of that future dimension.
Love and obedience matter in light of that coming day.
You overreach when you say: “Your whole argument falls apart when the full context of scripture is reintroduced.”
Because the full context of Scripture shows:
Already: “You have been saved” (Eph 2:8).
Already: “You have passed from death to life” (John 5:24).
Already: “We have peace with God” (Rom 5:1).
Not yet: “Our salvation is nearer now” (Rom 13:11).
Not yet: “Salvation ready to be revealed” (1 Pet 1:5).
The tension is (already/not yet), not, (not yet only).

 

[Drich]

You say the thief was “judged early.”
Jesus did not judge him. Jesus promised him, “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

no such promise can be made to the thief if Jesus did not judge him as being worthy.

This is:
salvation
assurance
acceptance
mercy
It is not:
sentencing
evaluation
judgment
condemnation
There is no courtroom scene. There is no verdict. There is no “judgment event.”
It is a promise, not a judgment.

This would be an example of a formal a judication in the courts of man.

What makes you assume that such a theatrical process is needed when every Christ makes a judgment? Christ spent a whole chapter condemning the pharisees in mat 24. None of the theatrics where present there.

You say the woman was “judged.”
Jesus explicitly says, “Neither do I condemn you.” (John 8:11)

That's because She was.. “Neither do I condemn you.” (John 8:11)

 

[OMC]

no such promise can be made to the thief if Jesus did not judge him as being worthy.

This would be an example of a formal a judication in the courts of man.

What makes you assume that such a theatrical process is needed when every Christ makes a judgment? Christ spent a whole chapter condemning the pharisees in mat 24. None of the theatrics where present there.

That's because She was.. “Neither do I condemn you.” (John 8:11)

Jesus’ promise to the thief is not a judgment event. It is a salvific declaration.
There is a difference between:
judicial condemnation (John 5:22; Matt 25:31–46)
salvific assurance (Luke 23:43)
The thief received assurance, not adjudication.
Jesus did not say:
“I hereby judge you righteous.”
“I declare your case closed.”
“I pronounce verdict.”
He simply said: “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
This is promise, not verdict.
“Christ spent a whole chapter condemning the Pharisees in Matthew 24.”
Brother, this is factually incorrect.
Matthew 24 is not condemnation of Pharisees.
Matthew 24 is:
prophecy
eschatology
warnings
signs of the end
tribulation
the coming of the Son of Man
The chapter where Jesus condemns the Pharisees is Matthew 23, not 24.
And even in Matthew 23, Jesus is not performing final judgment. He is issuing prophetic woes, not eternal sentencing.
A “woe” is:
warning
indictment
exposure
declaration of guilt
But it is not the final judgment of Matthew 25.
Jesus says: “You will receive the greater condemnation.” (Matt 23:14) Future tense.
He does not say: “I condemn you now to eternal fire.”
So again, you are conflating:
prophetic indictment with
final judgment
They are not the same.
“Neither do I condemn you” means she was judged."
Brother, this is the opposite of what Jesus said.
Jesus said: “Neither do I condemn you.” (John 8:11)
You are trying to reinterpret: “I do not condemn you.” as, “I condemn you, but not to death.”
That is not exegesis — it is inversion.
Jesus explicitly denies condemnation.
He does not:
judge her
sentence her
declare her righteous
declare her forgiven judicially
pronounce verdict
He simply refuses to condemn her.
This is mercy, not judgment.

A. The thief received assurance, not judgment.​

Luke 23:43 is promise, not verdict.

B. The Pharisees received prophetic woes, not final judgment.​

Matthew 23 is indictment, not sentencing.

C. The woman received non‑condemnation, not judicial evaluation.​

John 8:11 is mercy, not judgment.

D. You are conflating every divine statement with “judgment.”​

Scripture does not.
Scripture reserves final judgment for:
the Last Day (Matt 7:22–23; Matt 25:31–46)
the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11–15)
the Day of the Lord (Acts 17:31)
Jesus does not perform final judgment:
at the cross
in prophetic woes
in mercy encounters
in personal interactions
He judges finally at the appointed time (John 5:22; Acts 17:31).

Brother, your argument collapses because you redefine “judgment” to mean: Any time Jesus speaks.
But Scripture defines judgment as: The final, eschatological verdict rendered by Christ at the Last Day.
The thief did not receive that. The woman did not receive that. The Pharisees did not receive that.
Only Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 describe final judgment.
Everything else is:
warning
mercy
promise
indictment
teaching
prophecy
Not judgment.

 

[Drich]

John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.”​

Kinda already disproved your interpretation of this passage with the men in mat 7 who cry out Lord' Lord.
Clearly these men in mat 7 believed that they believed n Jesus as our Lord, which is why they cried out to Him "Lord,Lord" (To repeat a word in that culture was to emphatically express confidence and assurance.) These men KNEW who Jesus was. yet Jesus says He never knew them.

So either Jesus was wrong, or your interpretation of what Jesus said is wrong because again these men in mat 7 profess with their mouths that Jesus is "Lord, Lord" and yet they are condemned/lost.

Ephesians 2:8–9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”​

Again there is no time line implied. The passage here focuses on the mechanism of salvation. Not the moment that it takes hold. Meaning when Paul says "You have been saved by Grace" He is refering to grace as being the reason they are saved. We know this is the focous of this passage because He continues on by saying Not of works lest any man boast.

Again eph 2 does not support your conclusion of instant salvation because as Paul says it is not a work. When you first believe, when you make your confession of faith, when you accept Jesus into your heart, these are all works. Paul is saying here that those listed works, do not save you. So if those works do not save you, then the idea of instant salvation is made moot, because Paul removes the idea of salvation that is tied to your efforts, and give decision of salvation back to Christ.

When you first believe, when you make your confession of faith, when you accept Jesus into your heart. You become a disciple. Like Judas, or John. Remember All of the disciples including Judas followed your plan of salvation. they had faith in all the right places, believed what you would say they had to believe. As a result of being a disciple They all manifested fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 9:1-2 his Jesus give all authority to his disciples including judas.)

Yet, Judas betrayed Him, because Judas was just a student/disciple in this life as we are all students/followers of Christ in this life. Yes God knows how we will navigate the opportunities we are given. (He knows whether we will be saved or not) But we will not know till we are judged. Just like Christ knew who Judas was and what He would do long before Judas became a disciple.

1 John 3:14 “We have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers.”

Let's look at the passage in context Again:
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

John is referring to those who will be saved. Those who will make the journey from death to life. verse 15 conclusively shows that not all who would count themselves as among the saved will make this journey. (Those who hate their brothers/those who do not have the luke 10 love requirement of loving your neighbor as yourself.)

Passing from life to death is a figurative expression until you die and are resurrected. Until the resurrection, no one has passed from death to life.

Romans 8:1–2 “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…”

You don't seem to understand the definition of the word for condemnation.

condemn​

American
[kuhn-dem]/ kənˈdɛm /

verb (used with object)​

• condemns,
• condemned,
  past participle, past
• condemning

1. to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2. to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment.
   
   

   to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

   Antonyms:liberate, exculpate, exonerate
3. to give grounds or reason for convicting or censuring.
   
   

   His acts condemn him.

4. to judge or pronounce to be unfit for use or service.
   
   

   to condemn an old building.

5. U.S. Law. to acquire ownership of for a public purpose, under the right of eminent domain.
   
   

   The city condemned the property.

6. to force into a specific state or activity.
   
   

   His lack of education condemned him to a life of menial jobs.

7. to doom to eternal punishment in hell.
8. to declare incurable.

So when Paul says there will be (Future tense) condemnation if you are in christ. Meaning when you are judged (when ever that happens to be) you will not be condemned/found guilty, IF you are in Christ.

“Judgment does not create salvation. Judgment reveals salvation.”​

You say: “I never said judgment creates salvation.
I said salvation is imparted at judgment, as one is saved from being judged guilty.”

yes.

That is saying judgment creates salvation. If salvation is “imparted at judgment,” then:

Let's look at the word impart:
impart
/imˈpärt/
Impart is a formal verb that means to pass on information, knowledge, or a specific quality to someone or something. [1, 2]

Core Meanings

• • To share information: To make facts, secrets, or news known to others (e.g., to impart a secret).

So what is being said here when I say your salvation is imparted to you on the day of your judgement, is that Jesus is going to let you know what His decision on your eternal fate will be. Again, Jesus could have made this decision before He laid the foundations of the world, based on His fore knowledge of who you are and what decisions you will make.. But, you/we don't find out what He decided till judgment.

before judgment → not saved

Again the decision could be made before the foundations of the world. if that is the case then whether you are saved or not as nothing to do with judgement day. Judgment day refers to the day you are made aware of your eternal fate.

at judgment → salvation given
judgment event → salvation event

Scripture says the opposite:
salvation given at faith
justification declared at faith
condemnation removed at faith
judgment later reveals that already‑existing reality

I see there are 0 references. So we are not even using scriptural scaps anymore, we have fully moved to dogma?

Your model makes:
faith → nothing yet
judgment → salvation imparted
Scripture makes
faith → salvation
judgment → salvation revealed

My model:
Faith = Discipleship
Judgment = eternal fate revealed.

Scriptural model:
Faith = discipleship
Judgment = eternal fate revealed

Your model:
Faith + verse scraps + church dogma/internal church doctrine = instant salvation that not even Jesus can challenge/reverse. Because if Jesus can condemn a member of your church who has followed your church's plan of salvation perfectly.. Then salvation is not Immediate but rather imparted at judgement/when Christ informs you of your eternal fate.

Judgement = sentencing for all of those who did not follow your church's plan of salvation.

• John 6:47 — present tense “has eternal life.”

asked and answered

 

[OMC]

Kinda already disproved your interpretation of this passage with the men in mat 7 who cry out Lord' Lord.
Clearly these men in mat 7 believed that they believed n Jesus as our Lord, which is why they cried out to Him "Lord,Lord" (To repeat a word in that culture was to emphatically express confidence and assurance.) These men KNEW who Jesus was. yet Jesus says He never knew them.

So either Jesus was wrong, or your interpretation of what Jesus said is wrong because again these men in mat 7 profess with their mouths that Jesus is "Lord, Lord" and yet they are condemned/lost.

Again there is no time line implied. The passage here focuses on the mechanism of salvation. Not the moment that it takes hold. Meaning when Paul says "You have been saved by Grace" He is refering to grace as being the reason they are saved. We know this is the focous of this passage because He continues on by saying Not of works lest any man boast.

Again eph 2 does not support your conclusion of instant salvation because as Paul says it is not a work. When you first believe, when you make your confession of faith, when you accept Jesus into your heart, these are all works. Paul is saying here that those listed works, do not save you. So if those works do not save you, then the idea of instant salvation is made moot, because Paul removes the idea of salvation that is tied to your efforts, and give decision of salvation back to Christ.

When you first believe, when you make your confession of faith, when you accept Jesus into your heart. You become a disciple. Like Judas, or John. Remember All of the disciples including Judas followed your plan of salvation. they had faith in all the right places, believed what you would say they had to believe. As a result of being a disciple They all manifested fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 9:1-2 his Jesus give all authority to his disciples including judas.)

Yet, Judas betrayed Him, because Judas was just a student/disciple in this life as we are all students/followers of Christ in this life. Yes God knows how we will navigate the opportunities we are given. (He knows whether we will be saved or not) But we will not know till we are judged. Just like Christ knew who Judas was and what He would do long before Judas became a disciple.



Let's look at the passage in context Again:
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

John is referring to those who will be saved. Those who will make the journey from death to life. verse 15 conclusively shows that not all who would count themselves as among the saved will make this journey. (Those who hate their brothers/those who do not have the luke 10 love requirement of loving your neighbor as yourself.)

Passing from life to death is a figurative expression until you die and are resurrected. Until the resurrection, no one has passed from death to life.


You don't seem to understand the definition of the word for condemnation.

condemn​

American
[kuhn-dem]/ kənˈdɛm /

verb (used with object)​

• condemns,
• condemned,
  past participle, past
• condemning

1. to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2. to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment.
   
   
   Antonyms:liberate, exculpate, exonerate
3. to give grounds or reason for convicting or censuring.
   
   
4. to judge or pronounce to be unfit for use or service.
   
   
5. U.S. Law. to acquire ownership of for a public purpose, under the right of eminent domain.
   
   
6. to force into a specific state or activity.
   
   
7. to doom to eternal punishment in hell.
8. to declare incurable.

So when Paul says there will be (Future tense) condemnation if you are in christ. Meaning when you are judged (when ever that happens to be) you will not be condemned/found guilty, IF you are in Christ.

yes.

Let's look at the word impart:
impart
/imˈpärt/
Impart is a formal verb that means to pass on information, knowledge, or a specific quality to someone or something. [1, 2]

Core Meanings

• • To share information: To make facts, secrets, or news known to others (e.g., to impart a secret).

So what is being said here when I say your salvation is imparted to you on the day of your judgement, is that Jesus is going to let you know what His decision on your eternal fate will be. Again, Jesus could have made this decision before He laid the foundations of the world, based on His fore knowledge of who you are and what decisions you will make.. But, you/we don't find out what He decided till judgment.


Again the decision could be made before the foundations of the world. if that is the case then whether you are saved or not as nothing to do with judgement day. Judgment day refers to the day you are made aware of your eternal fate.

I see there are 0 references. So we are not even using scriptural scaps anymore, we have fully moved to dogma?


My model:
Faith = Discipleship
Judgment = eternal fate revealed.

Scriptural model:
Faith = discipleship
Judgment = eternal fate revealed

Your model:
Faith + verse scraps + church dogma/internal church doctrine = instant salvation that not even Jesus can challenge/reverse. Because if Jesus can condemn a member of your church who has followed your church's plan of salvation perfectly.. Then salvation is not Immediate but rather imparted at judgement/when Christ informs you of your eternal fate.

Judgement = sentencing for all of those who did not follow your church's plan of salvation.


asked and answered

1. John 6:47 — “He who believes ​

Brother, your appeal to Matthew 7 does not overturn Jesus’ statement in John 6:47.

A. The men in Matthew 7 did not “believe.”​

They professed (“Lord, Lord”), but Jesus says: “I never knew you.” (Matthew 7:23)
They had:
profession
religious activity
confidence
But they did not have saving faith.

Jesus Himself defines saving faith: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)
The Matthew 7 men trusted in:
their works (“Did we not…?”)
their ministry
their performance
They did not trust Christ.

B. John 6:47 uses present tense: ἔχει — “has.”​

Not “will have.” Not “might have.” Not “will be told later.”

Jesus says the believer has eternal life now.

Your interpretation requires Jesus to say: “He who believes will find out later whether he has eternal life.”
But Jesus does not say that.

 

[OMC]

2. Ephesians 2:8 — Perfect tense: “You have been saved.”​

You claim “no timeline is implied.”
Brother, the Greek grammar is the timeline.

σεσῳσμένοι ἐστε — perfect tense​

Meaning:
completed action
ongoing result
present reality
Paul is not describing:
a mechanism
a future revelation
a hypothetical status
He is describing a completed salvation.

Your claim that faith is a “work” contradicts Paul.​

Paul explicitly says: “To the one who does not work but believes, his faith is counted as righteousness.” — Romans 4:5
Faith is not a work. Faith is the opposite of work.

Your model requires: “Faith is a work, therefore salvation cannot happen at faith.”
Paul says: “Faith is not a work, therefore salvation does happen at faith.”

 

[OMC]

3. "Judas proves nothing about salvation".
Judas was:
chosen as a disciple
given authority
given ministry
But Jesus says: “One of you is a devil.” (John 6:70)
Judas was never saved.
He was:
a disciple externally
unregenerate internally
Your argument assumes: “Discipleship = salvation.”
Scripture says: “Many of His disciples turned back.” (John 6:66)
Discipleship is not salvation. Faith is salvation.

 

[OMC]

4. 1 John 3:14 — Perfect tense: “We have passed from death to life.”
You claim this is “figurative until resurrection.”
John disagrees.

μεταβεβήκαμεν — perfect tense​

Meaning:
already passed
already transferred
already moved
Paul agrees: “He delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of His Son.” — Colossians 1:13
Not future.
Not figurative.
Not “after resurrection.”

 

[OMC]

5. Romans 8:1 — “There is now no condemnation.”
You redefine “condemnation” by English dictionaries.
But Paul defines condemnation in Romans 8 itself: “Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect?” (Romans 8:33)“Who is to condemn?” (Romans 8:34)
Condemnation =a legal verdict of guilt before God.
Paul says: “There is now no condemnation.”
Not:
“There will be no condemnation later.”
“You will find out at judgment.”
“You will be informed of the verdict.”
He says: Now.
Your model requires Paul to say: “There will be no condemnation then.”
Paul says: “There is no condemnation now.”