Is cessation an observation or theology?

[biblestudent78]

OMC:
Many are very satisfied with the 12 chapters. What they meant then and now is in vast disagreement. By the way the "three fold Hebrew Canon is quite different:
The Three Categories of the Tanakh (the Jewish Canon) The Torah (תּוֹרָה)Instruction / Law5 Books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The foundational narrative of Judaism. It covers creation, the early ancestors (Patriarchs and Matriarchs), the Exodus from Egypt, the receiving of the Commandments at Mount Sinai, and the laws guiding Jewish life.

Nevi'im (נְבִיאִים)Prophets 8 Books: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Trei Asar (The 12 Minor Prophets counted as one book). Traces Israel's history from entering the Promised Land up through the Babylonian Exile. It is traditionally split into Former Prophets (historical narratives) and Latter Prophets (literary and moral exhortations).

Ketuvim (כְּתוּבִים)Writings 11 Books: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. A diverse collection of sacred literature. It features prayers and poetry (Psalms), philosophy and wisdom (Job, Ecclesiastes), and late historical narratives (Esther, Ezra-Nehemiah).

In 1st century Judaism they were fluid with their canon. Universally revered by all sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes) were the Tanakh but was rejected by the Sadducees who ran the temple. The generally highly debated. Books like Esther, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs were read but disputed. Apocryphal texts (Maccabees, Tobit) and sectarian scrolls (like those at Qumran) were highly venerated by various groups.

 

[Genez]

I did not make the claim, you did. I'm interested in what kind of truth you had in mind.

You ask questions in a format that would need several hours to do justice to giving an answer that would clarify.

That is not a cop out. If you want to hear the Scriptures being accurately taught?

Let me know.

 

[OMC]

Many are very satisfied with the 12 chapters. What they meant then and now is in vast disagreement. By the way the "three fold Hebrew Canon is quite different:
The Three Categories of the Tanakh (the Jewish Canon) The Torah (תּוֹרָה)Instruction / Law5 Books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The foundational narrative of Judaism. It covers creation, the early ancestors (Patriarchs and Matriarchs), the Exodus from Egypt, the receiving of the Commandments at Mount Sinai, and the laws guiding Jewish life.

Nevi'im (נְבִיאִים)Prophets 8 Books: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Trei Asar (The 12 Minor Prophets counted as one book). Traces Israel's history from entering the Promised Land up through the Babylonian Exile. It is traditionally split into Former Prophets (historical narratives) and Latter Prophets (literary and moral exhortations).

Ketuvim (כְּתוּבִים)Writings 11 Books: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. A diverse collection of sacred literature. It features prayers and poetry (Psalms), philosophy and wisdom (Job, Ecclesiastes), and late historical narratives (Esther, Ezra-Nehemiah)

I acknowledge your accurate description of the Tanakh’s threefold structure—Torah, Prophets, Writings—but Jesus’ reference to “the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms” is simply the same threefold canon using the Psalms as the head of the Writings; I reject the idea that this creates a different canon or undermines the 12‑chapter Daniel, because Jesus and the apostles consistently treat the Hebrew canon as authoritative and never include the Greek additions; and I stand firmly on this: your list of the Tanakh actually confirms the point—Daniel is canonical in the Writings, and the additions are not part of the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus affirmed.

 

[biblestudent78]

OMC:
It might be a good time to remind you that many of the authors or at least those who bear their names made extensive use of research books mostly during the writing of the various Prophets. This list comes just from reading the books under discussion. The authors themselves list these reference books....which we do not have today.

As mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, this includes the Book of Jasher, Book of the Wars of the Lord, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, (both mentioned over 30 times), Book of Shemaiah, Story of the Prophet Iddo, Book of Statutes, Acts of Solomon, Annals of King David, Book of Samuel the Seer, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Gad the Seer, Book of Anijah, Book of Jehu, Acts of Uzziah, Vision of Isiah, Sayings of the Seers, Laments of Josiah and Chronicles of King Ahasuerus.

 

[biblestudent78]

You ask questions in a format that would need several hours to do justice to giving an answer that would clarify.

That is not a cop out. If you want to hear the Scriptures being accurately taught?

Let me know.

I have heard the promise of "hearing the scriptures accurately taught" all my life but no two Christian groups can agree what is accurately taught. To avoid the "several hours" problem, why not state your preconceptions and dogmas about how to interpret the scriptures accurately. Which Canon? Which translation? Which denominational statement of faith are you working under? Who were your teachers and what insights did they open to you?

 

[Genez]

I have heard the promise of "hearing the scriptures accurately taught" all my life but no two Christian groups can agree what is accurately taught. To avoid the "several hours" problem, why not state your preconceptions and dogmas about how to interpret the scriptures accurately. Which Canon? Which translation? Which denominational statement of faith are you working under? Who were your teachers and what insights did they open to you?

This pastor taught his congregation six nights a week... He studied everyday.
When I was in Bible college the professor of ancient languages in Church service one night recommended him to me.
The professor during WW2 was affiliated with Harvard.

And, not to forget.

My Jewish father who disowned me after I became a believer, later on...
Would listen to and respect this pastor. The only teacher who could really reach him.

This is a pastor that many pastors would order messages and listen to him for their personal study.

For what it is worth.... https://rbthieme.org/about-us

.........

 

[Genez]

I have heard the promise of "hearing the scriptures accurately taught" all my life but no two Christian groups can agree what is accurately taught. To avoid the "several hours" problem, why not state your preconceptions and dogmas about how to interpret the scriptures accurately. Which Canon? Which translation? Which denominational statement of faith are you working under? Who were your teachers and what insights did they open to you?

An accurate Interpretation requires at least 3 things.

Isagogics...
Authorship: Who wrote the book.Date and Place:
When and where it was written.
Historical Context: The target audience and historical setting.
Purpose: Why the text was composed.

Categories...
Must correlate and harmonize comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Exegesis...
This area is normally the place of the greatest deficiency.
For many teacher can not properly translate the meaning, mood, and tenses of the original languages.


Here is an early photo of the private study library of my pastor, Robert Thieme, Jr.
(Scroll to the bottom of the page to see it)
https://rbthieme.org/about-us/history

If you listen to a couple of hours of his teachings the difference becomes easily apparent.
He was a teacher of teachers and Bible students alike.
At one time many pastors ordered his lessons for their private study.
Billy Graham even asked him to be his private mentor.

Grace and peace!

 

[OMC]

It might be a good time to remind you that many of the authors or at least those who bear their names made extensive use of research books mostly during the writing of the various Prophets. This list comes just from reading the books under discussion. The authors themselves list these reference books....which we do not have today.

As mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, this includes the Book of Jasher, Book of the Wars of the Lord, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, (both mentioned over 30 times), Book of Shemaiah, Story of the Prophet Iddo, Book of Statutes, Acts of Solomon, Annals of King David, Book of Samuel the Seer, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Gad the Seer, Book of Anijah, Book of Jehu, Acts of Uzziah, Vision of Isiah, Sayings of the Seers, Laments of Josiah and Chronicles of King Ahasuerus.

One of the most overlooked truths in the entire canon is that the biblical authors openly admitted drawing from a rich library of covenant records, royal annals, prophetic journals, and historical archives now lost to us. Yet the Spirit wove their inspired writings through these sources without lessening their divine authority. Reading the Hebrew Bible, I notice the traces of these forgotten works everywhere — the Book of Jasher, the Book of the Wars of the Lord, the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, the Acts of Solomon, the Book of Samuel the Seer, the Book of Nathan the Prophet, the Book of Gad the Seer, the Vision of Isaiah, the Sayings of the Seers, and many more. Their repeated mention isn’t accidental but a glimpse into how carefully Israel preserved its history. These weren’t mythical books; they were real reference texts, archives, and prophetic records, cited because the writers worked within a living tradition of documentation. For me, the existence of these lost sources doesn’t weaken Scripture — it highlights the depth of the world from which it arose, a world of prophets, scribes, historians, and seers whose voices still echo behind the sacred text we hold today.

 

[Inquisitor]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

The scripture is clear that the cessation of the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, did not occur.

Jesus is the same today as yesterday and so is the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit can perform miracles in believers lives and has done so in the past?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit leads you everyday?

 

[biblestudent78]

An accurate Interpretation requires at least 3 things.

Isagogics...
Authorship: Who wrote the book.Date and Place:
When and where it was written.
Historical Context: The target audience and historical setting.
Purpose: Why the text was composed.

Categories...
Must correlate and harmonize comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Exegesis...
This area is normally the place of the greatest deficiency.
For many teacher can not properly translate the meaning, mood, and tenses of the original languages.


Here is an early photo of the private study library of my pastor, Robert Thieme, Jr.
(Scroll to the bottom of the page to see it)
https://rbthieme.org/about-us/history

If you listen to a couple of hours of his teachings the difference becomes easily apparent.
He was a teacher of teachers and Bible students alike.
At one time many pastors ordered his lessons for their private study.
Billy Graham even asked him to be his private mentor.

Grace and peace!

Thank your for your response.
Authorship: How does one determine authorship? For instance Moses is "thought" to have written The Pentateuch. The variously suggested times of Moses is between 1,600 BC and 1,200 BC. But in either dating the hebrew language had not yet evolved the ability to write complex Hebrew Proses. That is first seen perhaps as early as the 9th century. Thus, whoever wrote in the name of Moses lived between between the 9th century BC to the 5th century BC. It might be noted that between the 16th century BC and the 11the century BC Egypt ruled over the entire Judean/Israelic country. They did not abandon that rulership until the Great Bronze Age collapse around 1150 Bc. At that time the Egyptians who were under attack by the "Sea People" and withdrew from Canaan. Shortly thereafter, the Egyptians recovered and placed a small enclave of formerly Sea People on the coast of Israel. The become known as the Philistines. They eventually settled 4 cities on the coast of Israel but never at the same time. Population studies show a dramatic decrease in the population of the in Canaan during the late bronze age – 1,500 BC to 1,200 BC. From the 260 occupied sites in 1,500 BC to 88 occupied sites in 1,200 BC.

However, as the bronze age collapse was getting into full swing with the massive movement of people, the highlands of Canaan experienced a population explosion. Population surveys identified the remains of a network of villages – all apparently established within the span of a few generations – indicated that a dramatic social transformation had taken place in Canaan around 1200 BC. From the low of 88 populated sites and a total population of 50,000 in 1,200 BC to over 678 sites and a population of 150,000 by 1,000BC. These were small sites which averaged about 225 people per site. What is also important to note is that the new sites were not built on the old and abandoned sites. With little exception, the small sites were all new, they did carry over the material culture of the previous population. These are considered by many scholars to be the first Israelites.

In Exodus 13:17, the escaping Hebrews are warned by God to avoid going near the Philistines. The Philistines had just arrived on the coast of Canaan about 1,150 BC, thus, by this command alone, the potential date for the exodus from Egypt is not earlier than perhaps 1,100 BC. At this time, the Egyptians were done fighting the sea people and ready to reassert their domination of their province of Canaan. However, the Hebrew Bible describes a period of the Judges that lasted 400 years before Saul became the 1st king of Israel around the year 1,000 BC, so the chronology is wrong for the wandering Israelites to have entered Canaan in 1,100 BC. This is only one illustration of the challenges that the authors of the Hebrew bible had when writing about events that happened long before their time.

One of the most important rules enforced by the Egyptians in Canaan was that cities were not to have protective walls. From the time of Thutmose III (1,481 BC-1,425 BC) until the end of Egyptian rule, almost all towns in Canaan had no city wall. Excluding Hazor, Megiddo, and (possibly) Gezer – the very largest Canaanite and Philistine cities – the only towns with walls constructed in the Late Bronze age are Ashdod, Tel Abu, Hawam, and Tel Beit Misrim. The 30+ other city states stood vulnerable and unprotected – just how Pharaohs wanted them. In Genesis 13:17 God tells Moses to avoid going directly into Canaan because there are Philistines there and the people will turn away because of their military power. Who is the author of the Pentateuch?

 

[Dei-Gratia]

The greater works will be the advancements in expounding and explaining the Word of God....
Making understandable what it means.
Much of what Jesus taught was yet to be explained.
And, 99.99% of the NT Jesus could not teach from.
For it was not in writing when Jesus walked the earth.


The sign gifts had nothing to do with greater works.
Otherwise? ... We would be seeing tongues speaking preachers running on water.


..............

Where does it say greater work is only about the expansion of the world without signs and wonders?

I've read Mark 16 as well?

 

[Genez]

Where does it say greater work is only about the expansion of the world without signs and wonders?

I've read Mark 16 as well?

What was needed in the very beginning, was.

What was built upon it?
Is what we have now.

 

[Genez]

Thank your for your response.
Authorship: How does one determine authorship? For instance Moses is "thought" to have written The Pentateuch. The variously suggested times of Moses is between 1,600 BC and 1,200 BC. But in either dating the hebrew language had not yet evolved the ability to write complex Hebrew Proses. That is first seen perhaps as early as the 9th century. Thus, whoever wrote in the name of Moses lived between between the 9th century BC to the 5th century BC. It might be noted that between the 16th century BC and the 11the century BC Egypt ruled over the entire Judean/Israelic country. They did not abandon that rulership until the Great Bronze Age collapse around 1150 Bc. At that time the Egyptians who were under attack by the "Sea People" and withdrew from Canaan. Shortly thereafter, the Egyptians recovered and placed a small enclave of formerly Sea People on the coast of Israel. The become known as the Philistines. They eventually settled 4 cities on the coast of Israel but never at the same time. Population studies show a dramatic decrease in the population of the in Canaan during the late bronze age – 1,500 BC to 1,200 BC. From the 260 occupied sites in 1,500 BC to 88 occupied sites in 1,200 BC.

However, as the bronze age collapse was getting into full swing with the massive movement of people, the highlands of Canaan experienced a population explosion. Population surveys identified the remains of a network of villages – all apparently established within the span of a few generations – indicated that a dramatic social transformation had taken place in Canaan around 1200 BC. From the low of 88 populated sites and a total population of 50,000 in 1,200 BC to over 678 sites and a population of 150,000 by 1,000BC. These were small sites which averaged about 225 people per site. What is also important to note is that the new sites were not built on the old and abandoned sites. With little exception, the small sites were all new, they did carry over the material culture of the previous population. These are considered by many scholars to be the first Israelites.

In Exodus 13:17, the escaping Hebrews are warned by God to avoid going near the Philistines. The Philistines had just arrived on the coast of Canaan about 1,150 BC, thus, by this command alone, the potential date for the exodus from Egypt is not earlier than perhaps 1,100 BC. At this time, the Egyptians were done fighting the sea people and ready to reassert their domination of their province of Canaan. However, the Hebrew Bible describes a period of the Judges that lasted 400 years before Saul became the 1st king of Israel around the year 1,000 BC, so the chronology is wrong for the wandering Israelites to have entered Canaan in 1,100 BC. This is only one illustration of the challenges that the authors of the Hebrew bible had when writing about events that happened long before their time.

One of the most important rules enforced by the Egyptians in Canaan was that cities were not to have protective walls. From the time of Thutmose III (1,481 BC-1,425 BC) until the end of Egyptian rule, almost all towns in Canaan had no city wall. Excluding Hazor, Megiddo, and (possibly) Gezer – the very largest Canaanite and Philistine cities – the only towns with walls constructed in the Late Bronze age are Ashdod, Tel Abu, Hawam, and Tel Beit Misrim. The 30+ other city states stood vulnerable and unprotected – just how Pharaohs wanted them. In Genesis 13:17 God tells Moses to avoid going directly into Canaan because there are Philistines there and the people will turn away because of their military power. Who is the author of the Pentateuch?

If I may?

I suggest you order a few lessons for yourself and find out how the orthodox method for Bible interpretation can be.

It should be enough for you to decide for yourself without anyone trying to convince you.

What are you going to lose?
Look at the financial policy.

https://rbthieme.org/about-us/grace-financial-policy



Grace and peace.....

 

[Genez]

Where does it say greater work is only about the expansion of the world without signs and wonders?

I've read Mark 16 as well?

What we have is a twofold phenomenon.

Greater works for us in our day will be in the expounding of God's word as understanding progressively keeps increasing over the years. Greater teaching is possible today that was not possible when Jesus walked the earth as far as insight and knowledge in His day.


But when Jesus was sending out his disciples?


Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account
of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and
greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you
ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jn 14:11-13


We need to think about it...

Were there any churches to be found where they were going to go?
None.

Where they were going to?
Was the name of Jesus even known?
No one yet knew.

They were to be going out into the devil's world to invade his domain with an invasion of gospel truth!
It would no longer remain confined to the relatively small area of Israel, like Jesus did.
They were going to do greater things.

Even unheard of things.

 

[biblestudent78]

If I may?

I suggest you order a few lessons for yourself and find out how the orthodox method for Bible interpretation can be.

It should be enough for you to decide for yourself without anyone trying to convince you.

What are you going to lose?
Look at the financial policy.

https://rbthieme.org/about-us/grace-financial-policy



Grace and peace.....

Genez:
I am familiar with the writings and sermons of Robert E Thieme Jr. My dad attended Dallas Baptist Seminary with his father. Like his prodigious father, "Bobby" has continued on his father's work since 2003. Together they have created a library of lessons on the bible numbering in the hundreds. They invented a unique methodological framework for bible study with the acronym of I.C.E. The intention of this method was to "teach biblical truth." Both father and son were competent in biblical hebrew and Greek but less so in Aramaic.

One illustration that "knowing the biblical languages" and studying their application does not always result in "understanding" the text is their frequent reference to 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto every good work." While they found that scripture useful for their own purposes, they missed the context entirely. When 2 Timothy 3:16 was written the only scriptures that existed were the Hebrew Bible. While many dispute the Pauline authorship of the pastoral letters they are all dated before the end of the first century A.D. Thus, what was in "circulation" at that time were letters and a huge collection of books later rejected by the Roman Church as "non-canonical." Before that time there were no single set of documents deemed "God Breathed" except the Hebrew Bible.

They were firmly Armenians' in their description of salvation by Grace Alone by Christ Alone but coined the term "supergrace" Supergrace is God's objective for the believer in time, and is the means of glorifying God in the Angelic Conflict. They taught "Surpassing Grace" which meant that those who had "Super Grace" on earth would get an elevated position in Heaven called Surpassing Grace. They taught the Doctrine of Reversionism detailed the consequences of the believer's neglect of the spiritual life God provides. Thieme outlined eight stages of spiritual degeneration in which a negative believer makes self-destructive decisions that reverse his spiritual growth. In short, only knowledge of God's Word as provided by the Thieme's could lead to human happiness.

They emphasized that while there is no such thing as a Christian nation, God blesses or curses a nation based on the attitude of its believers toward Bible doctrine as defined by them. Other "controversial" claims by the Theim's is that Christ did not bleed to death on the Cross, as most of his blood was in his body after his physical death when John observed a Roman soldier thrust a spear into his chest. Robert Thieme’s doctrine of the soul has drawn significant controversy. He taught that soul life is imparted only at birth—a view some have interpreted as implicitly allowing for abortion. Although Thieme never explicitly supported abortion, he also refrained from publicly opposing it, a stance that has attracted criticism from some Christians.

Also contentious for some was Thieme’s teaching on the "right pastor." Thieme asserted that most believers have a single pastor to whom they should listen exclusively for optimal spiritual growth. Thieme taught that human history is a subset of a massive, pre-historic courtroom trial and spiritual war between God and Satan, where human choices validate God's perfect justice.

Thieme as "notable for his pulpit attacks on 'do-gooders and liberals,' 'power-mad labor,' welfare recipients, homosexuals, gun controllers, rock music, feminists and the 'satanic' United Nations.

In sum, the Theim's work has often led to a much deeper understanding of the the New Testament. They brought a disciplined, multi-language and contextual approach to the study of the New Testament. They established a non-denominational church here in my town of Houston, Texas that has continued for over 60 yrs.

 

[OMC]

I am familiar with the writings and sermons of Robert E Thieme Jr. My dad attended Dallas Baptist Seminary with his father. Like his prodigious father, "Bobby" has continued on his father's work since 2003. Together they have created a library of lessons on the bible numbering in the hundreds. They invented a unique methodological framework for bible study with the acronym of I.C.E. The intention of this method was to "teach biblical truth." Both father and son were competent in biblical hebrew and Greek but less so in Aramaic.

One illustration that "knowing the biblical languages" and studying their application does not always result in "understanding" the text is their frequent reference to 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto every good work." While they found that scripture useful for their own purposes, they missed the context entirely. When 2 Timothy 3:16 was written the only scriptures that existed were the Hebrew Bible. While many dispute the Pauline authorship of the pastoral letters they are all dated before the end of the first century A.D. Thus, what was in "circulation" at that time were letters and a huge collection of books later rejected by the Roman Church as "non-canonical." Before that time there were no single set of documents deemed "God Breathed" except the Hebrew Bible.

They were firmly Armenians' in their description of salvation by Grace Alone by Christ Alone but coined the term "supergrace" Supergrace is God's objective for the believer in time, and is the means of glorifying God in the Angelic Conflict. They taught "Surpassing Grace" which meant that those who had "Super Grace" on earth would get an elevated position in Heaven called Surpassing Grace. They taught the Doctrine of Reversionism detailed the consequences of the believer's neglect of the spiritual life God provides. Thieme outlined eight stages of spiritual degeneration in which a negative believer makes self-destructive decisions that reverse his spiritual growth. In short, only knowledge of God's Word as provided by the Thieme's could lead to human happiness.

They emphasized that while there is no such thing as a Christian nation, God blesses or curses a nation based on the attitude of its believers toward Bible doctrine as defined by them. Other "controversial" claims by the Theim's is that Christ did not bleed to death on the Cross, as most of his blood was in his body after his physical death when John observed a Roman soldier thrust a spear into his chest. Robert Thieme’s doctrine of the soul has drawn significant controversy. He taught that soul life is imparted only at birth—a view some have interpreted as implicitly allowing for abortion. Although Thieme never explicitly supported abortion, he also refrained from publicly opposing it, a stance that has attracted criticism from some Christians.

Also contentious for some was Thieme’s teaching on the "right pastor." Thieme asserted that most believers have a single pastor to whom they should listen exclusively for optimal spiritual growth. Thieme taught that human history is a subset of a massive, pre-historic courtroom trial and spiritual war between God and Satan, where human choices validate God's perfect justice.

Thieme as "notable for his pulpit attacks on 'do-gooders and liberals,' 'power-mad labor,' welfare recipients, homosexuals, gun controllers, rock music, feminists and the 'satanic' United Nations.

In sum, the Theim's work has often led to a much deeper understanding of the the New Testament. They brought a disciplined, multi-language and contextual approach to the study of the New Testament. They established a non-denominational church here in my town of Houston, Texas that has continued for over 60 yrs

I know the Thieme framework. I know the ICE method. I know the disciplined linguistic approach, the heavy emphasis on Greek and Hebrew, the doctrinal system, the Angelic Conflict, Supergrace, Surpassing Grace, Reversionism, and the “right pastor” doctrine.
I’ve read the material, listened to the tapes, and watched how the system shaped people’s thinking.

Knowing biblical languages does not guarantee understanding biblical context.

The Thieme tradition mastered lexical precision but often missed historical setting, literary flow, and first‑century Jewish worldview. That’s why their use of 2 Timothy 3:16 is a perfect example of how technical skill can overshadow contextual awareness.
When Paul wrote: “All Scripture is God‑breathed…” the only “Scripture” that existed was the Hebrew Bible.
There was:
no New Testament canon
no bound collection
no universally recognized set of Christian writings
only circulating letters and early Christian texts
and a massive body of Jewish literature later rejected by Rome
So when Thieme applied 2 Tim 3:16 to the New Testament, he was reading backward, not reading contextually.
This is not a moral failure. It’s a hermeneutical one.
To be fair their strengths are
disciplined study
linguistic competence
structured methodology
contextual awareness (in certain areas)
a strong desire to teach Scripture
a massive library of lessons
a long-standing church presence
These things matter. They helped many people. But they have blind spots,
over‑systematization
doctrinal rigidity
reading the NT through a mid‑20th‑century American lens
theological conclusions not grounded in first‑century Judaism
speculative doctrines (Supergrace, Surpassing Grace, Angelic Conflict courtroom model)
the “right pastor” exclusivity
controversial teachings on soul life and abortion
political rhetoric from the pulpit
equating national blessing with doctrinal alignment
These are not small issues.
They shape how people see God, Scripture, and themselves.
Let me say this with respect:
The Thieme tradition produced disciplined students of the Bible, but not necessarily accurate interpreters of the Bible.
Their work helped many people understand the New Testament more deeply — but it also introduced doctrines, attitudes, and frameworks that were not rooted in the first‑century world of Jesus and the apostles.
Their legacy is mixed:
rich in study
strong in structure
weak in context
speculative in doctrine
and culturally shaped
But it is undeniably influential.

 

[Genez]

I know the Thieme framework. I know the ICE method. I know the disciplined linguistic approach, the heavy emphasis on Greek and Hebrew, the doctrinal system, the Angelic Conflict, Supergrace, Surpassing Grace, Reversionism, and the “right pastor” doctrine.
I’ve read the material, listened to the tapes, and watched how the system shaped people’s thinking.

Knowing biblical languages does not guarantee understanding biblical context.

The Thieme tradition mastered lexical precision but often missed historical setting, literary flow, and first‑century Jewish worldview. That’s why their use of 2 Timothy 3:16 is a perfect example of how technical skill can overshadow contextual awareness.
When Paul wrote: “All Scripture is God‑breathed…” the only “Scripture” that existed was the Hebrew Bible.
There was:
no New Testament canon
no bound collection
no universally recognized set of Christian writings
only circulating letters and early Christian texts
and a massive body of Jewish literature later rejected by Rome
So when Thieme applied 2 Tim 3:16 to the New Testament, he was reading backward, not reading contextually.
This is not a moral failure. It’s a hermeneutical one.
To be fair their strengths are
disciplined study
linguistic competence
structured methodology
contextual awareness (in certain areas)
a strong desire to teach Scripture
a massive library of lessons
a long-standing church presence
These things matter. They helped many people. But they have blind spots,
over‑systematization
doctrinal rigidity
reading the NT through a mid‑20th‑century American lens
theological conclusions not grounded in first‑century Judaism
speculative doctrines (Supergrace, Surpassing Grace, Angelic Conflict courtroom model)
the “right pastor” exclusivity
controversial teachings on soul life and abortion
political rhetoric from the pulpit
equating national blessing with doctrinal alignment
These are not small issues.
They shape how people see God, Scripture, and themselves.
Let me say this with respect:
The Thieme tradition produced disciplined students of the Bible, but not necessarily accurate interpreters of the Bible.
Their work helped many people understand the New Testament more deeply — but it also introduced doctrines, attitudes, and frameworks that were not rooted in the first‑century world of Jesus and the apostles.
Their legacy is mixed:
rich in study
strong in structure
weak in context
speculative in doctrine
and culturally shaped
But it is undeniably influential.

I was brought up Jewish.
And, yes... Some of what RBT taught missed a Jewish perspective.
But much of what he taught was revelatory for me.
It was not until after months of study that I finally began understanding what a Jew was in biblical times.
Typical Jews do not understand any of that today.

And...
No one is perfect.
But someone like RBT can help position one closer than before to what is perfect.

 

[Lamar]

The scripture is clear that the cessation of the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, did not occur.

No one is debating this.

Jesus is the same today as yesterday and so is the Holy Spirit.

No one is debating this.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit can perform miracles in believers lives and has done so in the past?

Can? Of course, don't you? What a odd question.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit leads you everyday?

I am led by my understanding of the Bible, not some personal metaphysical insight.

What leads you other than the Bible?

 

[biblestudent78]

I know the Thieme framework. I know the ICE method. I know the disciplined linguistic approach, the heavy emphasis on Greek and Hebrew, the doctrinal system, the Angelic Conflict, Supergrace, Surpassing Grace, Reversionism, and the “right pastor” doctrine.
I’ve read the material, listened to the tapes, and watched how the system shaped people’s thinking.

Knowing biblical languages does not guarantee understanding biblical context.

The Thieme tradition mastered lexical precision but often missed historical setting, literary flow, and first‑century Jewish worldview. That’s why their use of 2 Timothy 3:16 is a perfect example of how technical skill can overshadow contextual awareness.
When Paul wrote: “All Scripture is God‑breathed…” the only “Scripture” that existed was the Hebrew Bible.
There was:
no New Testament canon
no bound collection
no universally recognized set of Christian writings
only circulating letters and early Christian texts
and a massive body of Jewish literature later rejected by Rome
So when Thieme applied 2 Tim 3:16 to the New Testament, he was reading backward, not reading contextually.
This is not a moral failure. It’s a hermeneutical one.
To be fair their strengths are
disciplined study
linguistic competence
structured methodology
contextual awareness (in certain areas)
a strong desire to teach Scripture
a massive library of lessons
a long-standing church presence
These things matter. They helped many people. But they have blind spots,
over‑systematization
doctrinal rigidity
reading the NT through a mid‑20th‑century American lens
theological conclusions not grounded in first‑century Judaism
speculative doctrines (Supergrace, Surpassing Grace, Angelic Conflict courtroom model)
the “right pastor” exclusivity
controversial teachings on soul life and abortion
political rhetoric from the pulpit
equating national blessing with doctrinal alignment
These are not small issues.
They shape how people see God, Scripture, and themselves.
Let me say this with respect:
The Thieme tradition produced disciplined students of the Bible, but not necessarily accurate interpreters of the Bible.
Their work helped many people understand the New Testament more deeply — but it also introduced doctrines, attitudes, and frameworks that were not rooted in the first‑century world of Jesus and the apostles.
Their legacy is mixed:
rich in study
strong in structure
weak in context
speculative in doctrine
and culturally shaped
But it is undeniably influential.

I appreciate the response, but I don't know who wrote it. Please identify yourself.
And to quibble: "a massive body of Jewish literature later rejected by Rome"

The educated in Rome prior until about 200 AD were big fans of Judaism. They were educated in Greek Philosophy that provided no answers, ethics, moral foundations or any organizing principle that a society could coalesce around. Thus a good deal of Roman societies were fascinated with the framework of Judaism because it provided much of the ethos that Greek Philosophy lacked. They saw the Hebrew Bible as literature not religious instruction and in so doing could appreciate the positive structural benefit to a society without the negative religious part. Perhaps this is why Paul when writing to the Roman Churches, not having founded them, knew of the respect many Roman citizens and Roman Christians had for the Hebrew Bible chose to quote directly and indirectly from the Hebrew Bible in his letter to the Romans. If by "later" you are referring to events leading up to the consecration of Roman Christianity as the only legal religion of the State in 380 AD through the Edict of Thessalonica. For many generations Jewish people were given special status in Rome. Jews held officially recognized, protected religious status and exemptions within the Roman world for roughly 350 to 400 years.

 

[OMC]

I appreciate the response, but I don't know who wrote it. Please identify yourself.
And to quibble: "a massive body of Jewish literature later rejected by Rome"

The educated in Rome prior until about 200 AD were big fans of Judaism. They were educated in Greek Philosophy that provided no answers, ethics, moral foundations or any organizing principle that a society could coalesce around. Thus a good deal of Roman societies were fascinated with the framework of Judaism because it provided much of the ethos that Greek Philosophy lacked. They saw the Hebrew Bible as literature not religious instruction and in so doing could appreciate the positive structural benefit to a society without the negative religious part. Perhaps this is why Paul when writing to the Roman Churches, not having founded them, knew of the respect many Roman citizens and Roman Christians had for the Hebrew Bible chose to quote directly and indirectly from the Hebrew Bible in his letter to the Romans. If by "later" you are referring to events leading up to the consecration of Roman Christianity as the only legal religion of the State in 380 AD through the Edict of Thessalonica. For many generations Jewish people were given special status in Rome. Jews held officially recognized, protected religious status and exemptions within the Roman world for roughly 350 to 400 years.

It’s a pleasure to meet you. My name is Dr. Crowe, but I prefer to be called OMC.