OSAS, When does salvation take place?

[Drich]

John 10:28, John 3:5, John 3:36, 1st John 5:10 & Romans 10:9 & Ephesians 1:13, which may be the most direct verses on this subject. Ephesians 2: 8, 9 & 10 & John 3:5 also are to be considered. there maybe more. since there isn't a verse in the Bible anywhere that says there is a waiting time, it is common sense that salvation is immediate upon becoming born again.

I don't think you understand the assignment.

I'm asking for BCV that supports the claim that salvation happens when one is born again.

Then I would like scripture that tells us the process of being born again, as Church-ie-anity and has assigned 100 different meaning to this and salvation.

 

[Karlon]

now you are saying born. born is different from born again. you are not not clear. born is when a baby is born by it's mother. born again is when a person is now regenerated to God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. convicted, converted & transformed to the way Jesus thinks, speaks & acts. this is not6 an assignment.

I don't think you understand the assignment.

I'm asking for BCV that supports the claim that salvation happens when one is born again.

Then I would like scripture that tells us the process of being born again, as Church-ie-anity and has assigned 100 different meaning to this and salvation.

i already told you the verses.

 

[NightTwister]

it is possible to discover at judgment that I was never truly saved, because Jesus warns of people who sincerely believed they were His disciples yet hear, “I never knew you,” but I confess that this does not mean salvation itself is postponed until judgment or that Jesus waits until that day to decide who belongs to Him. Scripture teaches that salvation is a present reality—“having been justified by faith, we have peace with God”—and that those who are born of God know they have eternal life, yet Scripture also commands me to examine myself because false faith exists. I affirm that outward compliance to gospel steps—prayers, rituals, sacraments—cannot save, but I reject the idea that Jesus performs salvation only at judgment; rather, He judges publicly then what He has already done secretly now. Judas was a disciple outwardly but never born again inwardly, and his exposure at the end does not prove salvation is delayed but that false discipleship can persist until the final day. So I hold both truths together: salvation is given now by Christ, known now by the Spirit, evidenced now by love and perseverance, yet finally revealed and vindicated at judgment—where self‑deception is exposed, but true faith is never overturned.

Look at what scripture actually says:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Notice that these people said nothing about "sincere belief." They mentioned things that they did. I'm certain there will be those who think their works will save them. They are the ones who will be "surprised."

 

[OMC]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Notice that these people said nothing about "sincere belief." They mentioned things that they did. I'm certain there will be those who think their works will save them. They are the ones who will be "surprised."

I read Matthew 7:21–23 and I immediately notice exactly what you’re pointing out.
These people never appeal to belief.
They never say, “Lord, we trusted You,” or “Lord, we loved You,” or “Lord, we obeyed You.”
Their entire defense is a résumé of religious activity.
When I sit with this text, I see that Jesus intentionally highlights the tragedy of people who think they are safe because of what they did, not because of who they were in relation to Him.
Their words—“Lord, Lord”—show familiarity, even urgency, but not covenant loyalty.
Their works—prophecy, exorcism, miracles—show power, but not obedience. And when Jesus says, “I never knew you,” He exposes the core issue: they were never His.
Not once. Not for a moment.
They lived in the illusion that spiritual performance equals salvation, and that illusion collapses in a single sentence.
So yes, I agree: the ones who will be “surprised” are precisely those who trusted in their works instead of the relational obedience the Father requires.
Their shock on that day comes from discovering that doing things for God is not the same as belonging to God.

Matthew 7:21–23 — Greek Text (NA28)​

21 Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι· Κύριε κύριε,εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν,ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

22 Πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ·Κύριε κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν,καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν,καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν;

23 καὶ τότε ὁμολογήσω αὐτοῖς ὅτι·Οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς·ἀποχωρεῖτε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν.

• ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα — the one doing the will This is continuous action, not a one‑time deed.
• ἐπροφητεύσαμεν… ἐξεβάλομεν… ἐποιήσαμεν — did we not prophesy… cast out… do many works? All aorist verbs: they point to events, not identity.
• Οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς — I never knew you Not “I once knew you and stopped.” Never. Not even at the moment they were performing miracles.
• ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν — those who continually work lawlessness Present participle: ongoing lifestyle, not occasional failure.

 

[Drich]

now you are saying born. born is different from born again. you are not not clear. born is when a baby is born by it's mother.

Where did I ask about being 'born?'

born again is when a person is now regenerated to God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. convicted, converted & transformed to the way Jesus thinks, speaks & acts.

I'm asking for bible verses that describe the process you laid out.

this is not6 an assignment.

The assignment I presented was to provide bible verses that directly describe and or support what you have described here:

born again is when a person is now regenerated to God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. convicted, converted & transformed to the way Jesus thinks, speaks & acts.

i already told you the verses.

The verses you provided do not fully support all of the different things you said above. The verses you provided simply mention the term 'born again' and do not fully describe what you have described.

 

[Karlon]

Where did I ask about being 'born?'

I'm asking for bible verses that describe the process you laid out.

The assignment I presented was to provide bible verses that directly describe and or support what you have described here:




The verses you provided do not fully support all of the different things you said above. The verses you provided simply mention the term 'born again' and do not fully describe what you have described.

that's what 1 of the posts said. i don't know where it is. is it true that you don't believe you are saved immediately & that there is a waiting time?

 

[Karlon]

"you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"! doesn't that tell you salvation is immediate? plus, the fact that there isn't any evidence of salvation having a waiting time.

 

[OMC]

"you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"! doesn't that tell you salvation is immediate? plus, the fact that there isn't any evidence of salvation having a waiting time.

Yes — being “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” means salvation is immediate. And yes — Scripture gives zero evidence of any waiting period.

 

[Drich]

John 5 doesn’t define different kinds of faith — it defines true faith.

Again, without the stipulations of "true faith" then we only have the meaning of the word faith/belief to go off of. Otherwise we default into a no true scotsman fallacy. Where "true faith" is defined by personal preference.

The Matthew 7 men thought they had it because they pointed to miracles, but miracles don’t prove belief.

If you define belief/faith as simple acknowledgment that Jesus is Lord, then there is a conflict with what Jesus says in mat 7.

If however you understand that belief demands actions/works that demonstrate your love for God and love for your neighbor, Then the contradiction between these verses in John and what Jesus says in mat 7 goes away.

Claiming supernatural works is actually the highest form of self‑confidence, not saving faith, which is why Jesus says He never knew them.

Jesus in judgement did not say the miracles they performed were illegitimate, He point to their sin stating they did not do the will of the Father. This will is spelled out in the law. In luke 10 Jesus has a pharisee sum up the law by saying "Love God with all of your ability to do so, and Love your neighbor as Yourself."

In short the reason Jesus condemned these men is because; These men believed, but they did not have love.

You can interpret “made alive,” “saved,” and “regenerated” as happening at judgment — when Christ chooses not to condemn — but that’s not how Jesus or Paul use the terms. In Scripture, “made alive” is a present reality, not a future verdict. Judgment is the decision; regeneration is the life that comes before it.

The clearest BCV is Ephesians 2:5 — and it does tie them together: “He made us alive… by grace you have been saved.”
Paul uses two verbs to describe one act:
And yes — if someone insists salvation happens at judgment, they could try to push this verse forward.
But the grammar itself is aorist + perfect, describing a completed act with present results, not a future verdict.
So Eph 2:5 meets requirement #1.

So keep reading: verse 6:
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

You are sacrificing grammar for context. Context has Paul speaking of a future where all who are to be saved is saved and he is now in eph 2 describing the method of salvation.

I say that because Clearly none of this has happened yet.

We do not sit next to Christ in the Heavenly realms. He has not shown us anything because those coming ages have not come yet.

So again this is why I keep saying every time you bring up eph 2 Paul is describing the mechanism of salvation/the ins and outs of how we are saved. Not when..

When paul is speaking in a past tense he is speaking from a future perspective as witnessed by verse 6 and 7. As again None of this has happened yet.
You are only looking at verbiage and not the completed context of the message it self. If you look at the context you can not deny that Paul is infact speaking of a future event that shows us seated next to Christ so we can experience the promised riches and grace.

There is no BCV where a human initiates regeneration. None. Not one.
Every regeneration text attributes the action to God, the Spirit, or Christ:
John 1:13 — “born… not of the will of man, but of God.”
John 3:6–8 — “the Spirit gives birth.”
Titus 3:5 — “He saved us… by the washing of regeneration.”
1 Peter 1:3 — “He has caused us to be born again.”
James 1:18 — “Of His own will He brought us forth.”
There is no verse where a human performs an action to trigger new birth.

Which is the point I've been repeating from the OP.

Humans respond, believe, seek, repent, obey, follow, endure, buy, ask, knock — but none of those are described as causing regeneration.
So requirement #2 cannot be met, because Scripture never assigns the initiation of new birth to the believer.
Ephesians 2:5 ties salvation and new birth together in one divine act. And there is no BCV where a believer initiates regeneration — Scripture always attributes new birth to God alone.

Glad to have you on board.

Titus 3:5 actually supports what I just told you — regeneration is God’s act, not ours. Paul says:
“He saved us… through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.”
That means:
rebirth = His act
renewal = His act
saving = His act
Nothing in Titus 3:5 says when He saves — only how He saves.
And it explicitly denies any human‑initiated action: “not because of righteous things we had done.”
So Titus 3:5 fits perfectly with the two points you challenged me on:
1. Salvation and rebirth happen together — God does both.
Titus 3:5 ties saved and rebirth in the same sentence, just like Ephesians 2:5.
2. There is no BCV where a believer initiates regeneration.
Titus 3:5 says the opposite: He saved us… He washed… He renewed… the Spirit did the work.
That’s the whole point of the verse.

So God decides Who is saved and who is not...

Great! Next Question.. When this decision is made/was made by Jesus (To save us/regenerate us) how does that differ from Judgement?

Reminder: Judgment =when Jesus decided we will be/are saved

judgement day = when Jesus informs us of our eternal fate.

If there is no discernible difference then why can't it be said That salvation/regeneration happens at judgement/when God/Jesus decides to save/regenerate us?

You quoted: 1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God…”
In Greek:
“believes” — present participle: \hopisteuoˉn
“is born” — perfect passive: \gegenneˉtaiektouTheou
That means:
the believing one is already one who has been born of God
belief is the evidence of having been born, not the cause of being born
John is not saying, “When you believe, you trigger new birth.”
He’s saying, “If you are believing, that shows you have been born of God.”

So I’m not making anything up, and I don’t need to retract:
1 John 5:1 ties ongoing belief to prior new birth—God’s act first, your believing as its fruit.

wow.. you said:
1 John 5:1 — faith is present because new birth already occurred.

You've complete mis quoted 1 John 5. Not only that, your exegesis of 1 john 5 is also wrong. 1 John 5 goes into depth on what requirements have been placed on "belief. " (What qualifies as or evidences of "belief")

*Hint, what 1John says here points back to the Love Christ talks about in Luke 10.
So 1 john is saying is Love describes in luke 10 is a requirement for one to claim they 'believe.' In Short we are required to perform works as a result of the love we are supposed to have. Without this love and the accompanying works done in love, you can not say you 'believe.'

This is why the mat 7 men could perform miricles via the Holy Spirit and still not be saved. Which is what paul tells us in 1 cor: 13 If I speak in the tonguesof men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

 

[Drich]

There is no temporal gap in the grammar.
None.

But there is one contextually starting at verse 6.

You’re inserting:
Christ judges you

Ah, no..

• John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

• 2 Timothy 4:1: Paul writes about "Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom."

• Acts 10:42: Peter states that Jesus "was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead."

• Acts 17:31: God "has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed."

• Matthew 25:31–32: "When the Son of Man comes in His glory... All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another."

Christ decides not to condemn you

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.....
.....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’


This passage shows Jesus does infact judge us.

Christ then makes you alive
Christ then saves you

But not all are made alive, not all are saved. This exercise of discernment (saving some but not others) is what i am calling judgement. which again is different from judgement day.

But Paul only gives: He made you alive — He saved you.

That would be the definitive directive if the bible had nothing else to say on the matter.

One act.
One moment.
No sequence.

You’re adding a “judgment‑just‑prior” step that is not in the text.

No. I'm saying at some point Jesus makes a decision to save or to condemn each and every one of us. It does not need to be just prior to, but it could be.

That’s the issue.
Judgment in Scripture is always future, not the moment of regeneration

Judgement DAY is a future event. when every Jesus decides (whether that be on judgement DAY or while he was on the cross, or before the foundations of the world.) that is what I am calling "judgement." Which again could be different from judgement day.

This distinction is made to simply says 'we' are not who decides our fate through belief alone, a sinner prayer or baptism or any other rite ritual or belief.

If regeneration happened at judgment:

You seem to be confused on the term judgement (When Jesus decides your eternal fate) and Judgment day. The day we are informed of what Christ decided.

There is no correlation between when Christ decided to save you and the day you are informed. Now there is nothing that says this could not be the same day, but again nothing that says it is either.

I would contend Because He is all knowing and knows who and what you are before the foundations of the world.. That decision was made long before we came into existence. Which makes every item on your list possible

 

[Drich]

that's what 1 of the posts said. i don't know where it is. is it true that you don't believe you are saved immediately & that there is a waiting time?

1. I never asked about being born..

2. I believe we are saved not of our own efforts but by the decision Christ makes when He judges us.

 

[OMC]

But there is one contextually starting at verse 6.

Ah, no..

• John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
• 2 Timothy 4:1: Paul writes about "Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom."
• Acts 10:42: Peter states that Jesus "was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead."
• Acts 17:31: God "has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed."
• Matthew 25:31–32: "When the Son of Man comes in His glory... All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another."

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.....
.....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’


This passage shows Jesus does infact judge us.

But not all are made alive, not all are saved. This exercise of discernment (saving some but not others) is what i am calling judgement. which again is different from judgement day.

That would be the definitive directive if the bible had nothing else to say on the matter.

No. I'm saying at some point Jesus makes a decision to save or to condemn each and every one of us. It does not need to be just prior to, but it could be.

Judgement DAY is a future event. when every Jesus decides (whether that be on judgement DAY or while he was on the cross, or before the foundations of the world.) that is what I am calling "judgement." Which again could be different from judgement day.

This distinction is made to simply says 'we' are not who decides our fate through belief alone, a sinner prayer or baptism or any other rite ritual or belief.

You seem to be confused on the term judgement (When Jesus decides your eternal fate) and Judgment day. The day we are informed of what Christ decided.

There is no correlation between when Christ decided to save you and the day you are informed. Now there is nothing that says this could not be the same day, but again nothing that says it is either.

I would contend Because He is all knowing and knows who and what you are before the foundations of the world.. That decision was made long before we came into existence. Which makes every item on your list possible

You’re using “judgment” to mean Christ’s eternal decision,
while I was using “judgment” to mean Judgment Day.

Once you separate:

• decree (eternal)
• regeneration (in time)
• Judgment Day (future, public)

everything you said fits perfectly with everything I said.

Brother, those verses are absolutely true — but they describe Judgment Day, not the moment Christ decides your fate.

I quoted:
John 5
2 Timothy 4
Acts 10
Acts 17
Matthew 25
Every single one describes the public courtroom, not the moment Christ decides.

I proved B, not A:

A — Christ’s eternal decree (decision)​

You call this “judgment.”Scripture calls this foreknowledge, predestination, election.

B — Judgment Day (public revelation)​

Scripture calls this “judgment.”

You were mixing A and B.

I was correcting the mix.

 

[Karlon]

1. I never asked about being born..

2. I believe we are saved not of our own efforts but by the decision Christ makes when He judges us.

that's what 1 of the posts said, "born", not "born again".

 

[Drich]

"you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"! doesn't that tell you salvation is immediate?

Sealed means protected/marked. It does not mean saved. look at the actual verse you quoted from: Eph 1: 1313 It is the same with you. You heard the true message, the Good News about the way God saves you. When you heard that Good News, you believed in Christ. And in Christ, God put his special mark on you by giving you the Holy Spirit that he promised. 14 The Spirit is the first payment that guarantees we will get all that God has for us.

Remember Judas was also 'seal' and received the Holy Spirit, till his action grieved the Holy Spirit and was turned over to satan.

plus, the fact that there isn't any evidence of salvation having a waiting time.

Unless you keep reading eph 1 (Where your bible quote came from)

Eph1:11 In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Why is there a need for a deposit IF we have come into our salvation?

 

[Drich]

that's what 1 of the posts said, "born", not "born again".

great.. Show me, give me a post number, a quote or something. We can not edit our posts after the first 5 mins of posting. So it wasn't changed. Otherwise know you read it wrong.

 

[Karlon]

great.. Show me, give me a post number, a quote or something. We can not edit our posts after the first 5 mins of posting. So it wasn't changed. Otherwise know you read it wrong.

you are making yourself a victim of "paralysis by analysis". i'm not conversing anymore on this subject. i don't care to get into long debates with anyone here. 1 reason is i don't like typing, my fingers are too big. i have lots of things to do yet like going for a drum rehearsal right now. be blessed & learn the truth.

 

[Drich]

You’re using “judgment” to mean Christ’s eternal decision,
while I was using “judgment” to mean Judgment Day.

Once you separate:

• decree (eternal)
• regeneration (in time)
• Judgment Day (future, public)

everything you said fits perfectly with everything I said.

Can you do me a favor now that we are on the same page.

Look at the OP again with fresh eyes and tell me where the OP differs from "everything you said."

I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.

 

[Drich]

"you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"! doesn't that tell you salvation is immediate? plus, the fact that there isn't any evidence of salvation having a waiting time.

If you are Sealed with a promise of the Holy Spirit, does that literally mean that salvation is pending? Otherwise why would we need a promise of the Holy Spirit ? why would the Holy Spirit be considered a "deposit"?

A deposit is money or something of value that you put down that secures the promise of a larger transaction.

 

[Drich]

you are making yourself a victim of "paralysis by analysis".

Or... I was wrongly accused of being ignorant of what it means to be "born." And when I simply asked that you quote the passage where I asked you to mansplain what it means to be born. You then could not produce a reference.

 

[Karlon]

Or... I was wrongly accused of being ignorant of what it means to be "born." And when I simply asked that you quote the passage where I asked you to mansplain what it means to be born. You then could not produce a reference.

i had some exercising & drumming to complete today. plus, i said i don't get greatly involved in debates. it's not that i could not produce a reference, i didn't want to. this conversation is traveling nowhere. if you are so determined, you look up your statement about the word "born". when i read it, i thought someone forgot to type the word "again" so i looked again & it was "born".