Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Journey_man]

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to
his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

Your opinion is not based on the text states.

Your opinion is a philosophical idea that a believer is eternally secure regardless of how they behave.

Galatians 6:7-8 is only an observation. It's quite simply saying that believers sow to the Spirit and unbelievers sow to the flash. So both Saints and Reprobates reap their just reward.

Gods people reap the reward which the Lord Jesus purchased for us at the cross. The reprobate reap the reward of eternal punishment in hell, because that exactly what they deserve.

How many times does God forgive one of His elect? you make it sound like He'ss just waiting for us to step out of line so He can condemn us. But Gods Word reveals there is no limit to Gods mercy towards His people, and there is no sin that can separate us from Him.

The Apostle Peter was a sinner, who was angry with his brother and he wanted to punish him for his transgression againt him. So he asked the Lord Jesus for His advice.

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

If a sinner is commanded to forgive his brother 490 times, then an infinitely merciful loving God would forgive every sin His children committed against Him.
.
The Lord Jesus has already paid for all of our past, present and future sins. So those warnings are not for us, they are for the fake christians.

 

[lrs68]

Galatians 6:7-8 is only an observation. It's quite simply saying that believers sow to the Spirit and unbelievers sow to the flash. So both Saints and Reprobates reap their just reward.

Gods people reap the reward which the Lord Jesus purchased for us at the cross. The reprobate reap the reward of eternal punishment in hell, because that exactly what they deserve.

How many times does God forgive one of His elect? you make it sound like He'ss just waiting for us to step out of line so He can condemn us. But Gods Word reveals there is no limit to Gods mercy towards His people, and there is no sin that can separate us from Him.

The Apostle Peter was a sinner, who was angry with his brother and he wanted to punish him for his transgression againt him. So he asked the Lord Jesus for His advice.

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

If a sinner is commanded to forgive his brother 490 times, then an infinitely merciful loving God would forgive every sin His children committed against Him.
.
The Lord Jesus has already paid for all of our past, present and future sins. So those warnings are not for us, they are for the fake christians.

Sins paid for and seeking forgiveness for sins are not the same thing. You must personally forgive by remembering what was done to proclaim and offer forgiveness. We seek forgiveness then God removes it even though it's been covered in the Blood.

 

[Journey_man]

You won't find verses when you don't seek them.
The issue is not accidentally losing salvation but rather intentionally repudiating saving faith aka apostasy.
That possibility is indicated by the following verses in Scripture that I found and amended my Baptist belief in OSAS:

There are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. Gal. 5:1 & Rev. 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Heb. 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Gal. 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.”

Also see Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Well, where's the verse that says Gods elect/believers can lose their salvation?.

None of those verses say any such thing. If you put down that distorted Arminian lens down, and study the Bible without it, you would find that the Arminian "saved by works" version of the gospel is not taught by anyone in the Bible.

I could dismantle your theology piece by piece, and show you why none of the above verses support your works based version of the gospel. But I don't believe you're willing to consider the possibility that you may be wrong. I get the sense that your motivation is not to defend the truth of the gospel, but to defend your own unbiblical version of the gospel.

 

[Journey_man]

Sins paid for and seeking forgiveness for sins are not the same thing. You must personally forgive by remembering what was done to proclaim and offer forgiveness. We seek forgiveness then God removes it even though it's been covered in the Blood.

Yes, this is why we pray "always". We sin everyday, so we need repent and pray for forgiveness everyday. Wrestling against our flesh is a daily battle, the enemy seeks to destroy us. So in order to stand against the enemy we must put on the whole armour of God.

Gods people have 3 enemies to deal with, 1. is self, 2. is the Devil and 3. is the world, which the Devil rules.

 

[GWH]

Well, where's the verse that says Gods elect/believers can lose their salvation?.

None of those verses say any such thing. If you put down that distorted Arminian lens down, and study the Bible without it, you would find that the Arminian "saved by works" version of the gospel is not taught by anyone in the Bible.

I could dismantle your theology piece by piece, and show you why none of the above verses support your works based version of the gospel. But I don't believe you're willing to consider the possibility that you may be wrong. I get the sense that your motivation is not to defend the truth of the gospel, but to defend your own unbiblical version of the gospel.

Again, the issue is not accidentally losing salvation but rather intentionally repudiating saving faith aka apostasy,
so discussion will not go forward until you put down the strawman and address what we mfwers actually believe,
which is the verses in Scripture I cited that prompted me to amend my previous Baptist belief in OSAS:
Heb. 6:4-6, Gal. 5:4, Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Once you remove your heretical tulipist lens, you should see that mfwers do not believe sinners are saved by works,
but rather via faith in the atonement of Christ. However, I sense that you project your own unwillingness to consider
being wrong onto me, especially because I cited an example of me being wrong and amending my understanding accordingly.

If I sense wrongly, then go ahead and "dismantle" the cited verses/my "theology" constructively and with an open mind.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Your attempt to make Hebrews 6:4-6 say that believers can lose their salvation is also nonsense. Again, there is no mention of believers. This passage describes those who go to Church for a free lunch and cappuccino, but are not believers. They may claim to believe by their moth, but their actions reveal they never were.

A. Simply calling another person's view nonsense does nothing to either prove your premise or to disprove theirs. Nevertheless, rather than offering any textual evidence you seize upon the fact that the author does not specifically CALL them believers. However, given the numerous context clues found throughout the book show that the author, as well as his readers, had a detailed knowledge of who Christ was from the scriptures. They not only knew about Christ's divine origins but they also understood how His death and resurrection brought about our redemption and about how these facts would one day re-shape the universe. This is not the kind of truth you teach to novices in the faith much less to unbelievers. That kind of person needs to be confronted with their own sin so they can be brought to repentance and true faith in Christ.

B. Next you, add a wholly invented [even, slanderous] assessment of their character, claiming that they were just showing up to meetings in order to obtain some kind of physical benefit comparable to free lunch and cappucino. You do not bother to anchor this claim on anything that can be found in the book. In fact, when we read what the author himself wrote about them, we see quite a different picture when he urges them to remember their early days in the faith:
32 Remember the early days that you were in the light. In those days, you endured a great conflict in the face of suffering (Hebrews 10:32)
The fact that even at this previous time they were "IN the light" shows that previously they were IN fellowship with the God who is both holiness, and truth? Unbelievers are not in the Light. They are in darkness.

C. Next, the author describes the trials they endured at that time:
33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession.
(Hebrews 10:33-34)

The Bible says fiery trials are the way the Father disciplines true sons. How could this possibly be a description of someone who was not a believer at all? Does this even sound like a description of even weak cafeteria Christians going to Church merely to take part in some carnal benefit? The only reason you have even attempted to create this image is because the Hebrews were warned not to fall away from the Faith which you have already decided is impossible for true believers. This presupposition is what compels you to perform considerable feats of exegetical acrobatics in order to abandon the obvious meaning of the text.

D. While the author of Hebrews does point out some areas of immaturity in the Hebrew believers their areas of immaturity were not like that of the Corinthians who thought they could feed their carnal appetites and still walk with God. These former Jews knew better. Their particular area of immaturity seems to center on their inability to see the deeper mysteries about Messiah which lay as hidden treasures under the written text of scriptures. As the author observes in

Hebrews 5:11-13:
11 We have much to say about this [about Melchizadek], but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing.
12 Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food! 13 For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

Although they had kept the faith under pressure these Hebrews needed a refresher course on foundational truths. Most every congregation does at one time or another. When it came to understanding deeper Spiritual truths it must have been harder for them not to revert to the superficial views of the Rabbis they had grown up listening to.

 

[Inquisitor]

I couldn't find any warnings in any of the verses you referred to. Can you please show me the verse where saved people lose their salvation. I haven't found a single verse in the Bible to support any such nonsense.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and
neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

 

[Inquisitor]

How many times does God forgive one of His elect? you make it sound like He'ss just waiting for us to step out of line so He can condemn us. But Gods Word reveals there is no limit to Gods mercy towards His people, and there is no sin that can separate us from Him.

There are a number of sins which any Christian can commit which will separate them from our Lord.

1) A future denial of Jesus Christ
2) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
3) A Christian life lived in the flesh and not in the Spirit

Philippians 3:17-19
Brothers and sisters, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you
have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies
of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame,
who have their minds on earthly things.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth
to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if you live by the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

1 Corinthians:6-9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived.

A Christian can fall by not repenting from the deeds of the flesh which is a life long journey.

We are only saved by the blood of Jesus Christ but any Christian can default by following the lusts of the flesh.

Do not be deceived on this point.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

How many times does God forgive one of His elect? you make it sound like He'ss just waiting for us to step out of line so He can condemn us. But Gods Word reveals there is no limit to Gods mercy towards His people, and there is no sin that can separate us from Him.

a. This is just your caricature of what you think people who do not believe in OSAS must experience. However, no one before Augustine in the Fifth Century believed in OSAS as it is currently taught. Even Augustine believed that, in addition to having an encounter with God, a person had to be given the "gift of perseverence" to be saved at the final day

b. Also I, personally, do not see God as just waiting for me to sin so He can condemn me. I have known a few but usually these people end up leaving the Church. On the other hand, I also have seen many congregations who tolerate blatant immorality out of a perverted idea of grace. This is very common in these modern times. All I can say is that there is a ditch on both sides of the road

c. As to the forgiveness of future sins, I find this to be an untenable proposition. Another word for it might be a license to sin. When we first repent and believe in Jesus we are forgiven and cleansed of all past sins and reconciled to God. After that, forgiveness and cleansing proceeds according to the path laid out by the
Apostle John .
…6 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk [habitually] in the light as He is in the light, we have [continual] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son [continually] cleanses us from all sin (1 John 2:7-9)
The verbs in this passage: walking, having fellowship and being cleansed by the blood are in the present tense which, in Greek, indicates actions that are ongoing or continual.

d. Still, another argument against this idea of pantemporal forgiveness is the Savior's own template for prayer which includes the phrase forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Unlike what some popular movies have said: love does not mean never having to say you are sorry.

d. The reason why future sins cannot be forgiven is that they are not real. They are only potential realities. God never forgives or condemns for something they might do, or even for something He knows they will do. That would not be just.

So those warnings are not for us, they are for the fake christians.

Another name for a false Christian is simply an unbeliever, more particularly, one who is in denial about his true condition and is concealing it. Are you saying the Holy Spirit delivers warnings to those who do not even believe they are in any danger who are instead playing like they are acceptable to God for the sake of appearances? The idea that God does not issue warnings to his own people goes totally against the entire tenor of scripture all the way back to the first two humans whom He warned not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

 

[Journey_man]

Again, the issue is not accidentally losing salvation but rather intentionally repudiating saving faith aka apostasy,
so discussion will not go forward until you put down the strawman and address what we mfwers actually believe,
which is the verses in Scripture I cited that prompted me to amend my previous Baptist belief in OSAS:
Heb. 6:4-6, Gal. 5:4, Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Once you remove your heretical tulipist lens, you should see that mfwers do not believe sinners are saved by works,
but rather via faith in the atonement of Christ. However, I sense that you project your own unwillingness to consider
being wrong onto me, especially because I cited an example of me being wrong and amending my understanding accordingly.

If I sense wrongly, then go ahead and "dismantle" the cited verses/my "theology" constructively and with an open mind.

Repeating the same nonsense over and over will never make it true. Heb 6:4-6 lists profound religious experiences. But a person can experience the outward blessings, community, and truth of the gospel without being truly saved.

Note what the author of Hebrews says in verse 9, "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation." This shows the writer is separating true believers from your hypothetical group.

God preserves those He truly saves. Scripture teaches that genuine believers cannot be snatched from Christ's hand. If someone completely turns away from Christ (apostasy), it proves they never possessed true saving faith to begin with.
Galatians 5:4 exposes you Arminian "saved by works" version of the gospel as being false. Paul uses strong rhetorical warnings to shake people out of your legalism, contrasting the two mutually exclusive paths of grace versus law.

God said "we are saved by grace", but you say no "we are saved by faith". So you reject Gods grace, and forget that faith is entirely a gift from God rather than a humanly generated work or ability. You make your faith a work, to earn salvation. That's pure Arminianism

 

[Journey_man]

A. Simply calling another person's view nonsense does nothing to either prove your premise or to disprove theirs. Nevertheless, rather than offering any textual evidence you seize upon the fact that the author does not specifically CALL them believers. However, given the numerous context clues found throughout the book show that the author, as well as his readers, had a detailed knowledge of who Christ was from the scriptures. They not only knew about Christ's divine origins but they also understood how His death and resurrection brought about our redemption and about how these facts would one day re-shape the universe. This is not the kind of truth you teach to novices in the faith much less to unbelievers. That kind of person needs to be confronted with their own sin so they can be brought to repentance and true faith in Christ.

B. Next you, add a wholly invented [even, slanderous] assessment of their character, claiming that they were just showing up to meetings in order to obtain some kind of physical benefit comparable to free lunch and cappucino. You do not bother to anchor this claim on anything that can be found in the book. In fact, when we read what the author himself wrote about them, we see quite a different picture when he urges them to remember their early days in the faith:
32 Remember the early days that you were in the light. In those days, you endured a great conflict in the face of suffering (Hebrews 10:32)
The fact that even at this previous time they were "IN the light" shows that previously they were IN fellowship with the God who is both holiness, and truth? Unbelievers are not in the Light. They are in darkness.

C. Next, the author describes the trials they endured at that time:
33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession.
(Hebrews 10:33-34)

The Bible says fiery trials are the way the Father disciplines true sons. How could this possibly be a description of someone who was not a believer at all? Does this even sound like a description of even weak cafeteria Christians going to Church merely to take part in some carnal benefit? The only reason you have even attempted to create this image is because the Hebrews were warned not to fall away from the Faith which you have already decided is impossible for true believers. This presupposition is what compels you to perform considerable feats of exegetical acrobatics in order to abandon the obvious meaning of the text.

D. While the author of Hebrews does point out some areas of immaturity in the Hebrew believers their areas of immaturity were not like that of the Corinthians who thought they could feed their carnal appetites and still walk with God. These former Jews knew better. Their particular area of immaturity seems to center on their inability to see the deeper mysteries about Messiah which lay as hidden treasures under the written text of scriptures. As the author observes in

Hebrews 5:11-13:
11 We have much to say about this [about Melchizadek], but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing.
12 Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food! 13 For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

Although they had kept the faith under pressure these Hebrews needed a refresher course on foundational truths. Most every congregation does at one time or another. When it came to understanding deeper Spiritual truths it must have been harder for them not to revert to the superficial views of the Rabbis they had grown up listening to.

Yes I called it "nonsense" because, what they were saying did not make any sense. I'm not willing to throw the truth of the gospel under the bus, for the sake of fellowship with someone who rejects Gods Word.

We were discussing true believers (Saints) v unbelievers (Reprobates). We don't tolerate "fake Christians" in our Church, we confront them and take disciplinary measures. If they don't meet our requirements, they are excommunicated and treated as infidels.

I notice you make no distinction between true Christians and fake Christians, this demonstrates you don't have the gift of discernment so you can be deceived. Coming to Church on Sunday, paying lip service and going through the motions doesn't qualify anyone for Church membership. We get right into your private life to find out everything about you, before we consider you for membership.

We're not a seeker friendly Church, we regularly have visitors storming out half way through a sermon because the message offended them.

 

[Journey_man]

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and
neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Would you please consider studying this verse without viewing it through that distorted Arminian lens. Again, there is no mention of God vomiting His elect out of His mouth in the verse. Nor does it say anything about born again believers losing their salvation.

 

[OMC]

I couldn't find any warnings in any of the verses you referred to. Can you please show me the verse where saved people lose their salvation. I haven't found a single verse in the Bible to support any such nonsense.

Only those who were never saved to begin with lose salvation. No where in scripture does it say a true believer loses it.
Scripture NEVER says a saved person can lose salvation.

John 10:28​

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.”

Never perish = never lost.

John 6:39​

“I shall lose none of all He has given Me.”

None = none.

Romans 8:30​

“Those He justified, He also glorified.”

Every justified person ends in glory.No dropouts.

Romans 8:38–39​

“Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God.”

Nothing = nothing.

Hebrews 10:14​

“He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”

Forever = forever.

1 Peter 1:5​

“Kept by the power of God.”

Kept by God, not by human performance.

There is zero biblical evidence of a true believer losing salvation.
So what are all those warnings for?

**Warnings are not about losing salvation.​

Warnings are about exposing false faith.**

Jesus Himself says: “Many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’… and I will say, ‘I never knew you.’”(Matthew 7:22–23)
Notice:
He does not say, “I knew you once, then you fell away.”
He says, “I NEVER knew you.”

Meaning:

They were never saved to begin with.​

Warnings exist because self‑deception exists.
Not because salvation can be lost.

 

[Journey_man]

There are a number of sins which any Christian can commit which will separate them from our Lord.

1) A future denial of Jesus Christ
2) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
3) A Christian life lived in the flesh and not in the Spirit

Philippians 3:17-19
Brothers and sisters, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you
have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies
of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame,
who have their minds on earthly things.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth
to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if you live by the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

1 Corinthians:6-9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived.

A Christian can fall by not repenting from the deeds of the flesh which is a life long journey.

We are only saved by the blood of Jesus Christ but any Christian can default by following the lusts of the flesh.

Do not be deceived on this point.

There are a number of sins which no Christian can commit.

1) A future denial of Jesus Christ
2) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
3) A Christian life lived in the flesh and not in the Spirit

Gods Word reveals that, nothing can separate a Christian from Christ. But you obviously don't believe what Gods has said, as it doesn't line up with your presuppositions.

No "Christian can default by following the lusts of the flesh". You just made that nonsense up, the Bible never teaches any such thing. Christians sin every single day throughout our entire life, but we will never lose our salvation.

 

[OMC]

There are a number of sins which any Christian can commit which will separate them from our Lord.

1) A future denial of Jesus Christ
2) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
3) A Christian life lived in the flesh and not in the Spirit

Philippians 3:17-19
Brothers and sisters, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you
have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies
of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame,
who have their minds on earthly things.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth
to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if you live by the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

1 Corinthians:6-9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived.

A Christian can fall by not repenting from the deeds of the flesh which is a life long journey.

We are only saved by the blood of Jesus Christ but any Christian can default by following the lusts of the flesh.

Do not be deceived on this point

But every verse you quoted does not say a saved person can lose salvation. Every one of them describes unsaved people, false believers, or flesh‑dominated people who were never born again.

 

[Journey_man]

a. This is just your caricature of what you think people who do not believe in OSAS must experience. However, no one before Augustine in the Fifth Century believed in OSAS as it is currently taught. Even Augustine believed that, in addition to having an encounter with God, a person had to be given the "gift of perseverence" to be saved at the final day

b. Also I, personally, do not see God as just waiting for me to sin so He can condemn me. I have known a few but usually these people end up leaving the Church. On the other hand, I also have seen many congregations who tolerate blatant immorality out of a perverted idea of grace. This is very common in these modern times. All I can say is that there is a ditch on both sides of the road

c. As to the forgiveness of future sins, I find this to be an untenable proposition. Another word for it might be a license to sin. When we first repent and believe in Jesus we are forgiven and cleansed of all past sins and reconciled to God. After that, forgiveness and cleansing proceeds according to the path laid out by the
Apostle John .
…6 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk [habitually] in the light as He is in the light, we have [continual] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son [continually] cleanses us from all sin (1 John 2:7-9)
The verbs in this passage: walking, having fellowship and being cleansed by the blood are in the present tense which, in Greek, indicates actions that are ongoing or continual.

d. Still, another argument against this idea of pantemporal forgiveness is the Savior's own template for prayer which includes the phrase forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Unlike what some popular movies have said: love does not mean never having to say you are sorry.

d. The reason why future sins cannot be forgiven is that they are not real. They are only potential realities. God never forgives or condemns for something they might do, or even for something He knows they will do. That would not be just.


Another name for a false Christian is simply an unbeliever, more particularly, one who is in denial about his true condition and is concealing it. Are you saying the Holy Spirit delivers warnings to those who do not even believe they are in any danger who are instead playing like they are acceptable to God for the sake of appearances? The idea that God does not issue warnings to his own people goes totally against the entire tenor of scripture all the way back to the first two humans whom He warned not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

The Lord Jesus taught OSAS and He is before Augustine. So it's back to the drawing board for you.

John 10:28–29: Jesus says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand", emphasizing that Christ's holding power secures the believer's destiny.

Romans 8:38–39: Paul writes that nothing "will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord," covering death, life, and future powers.

Romans 8:29–30: Paul outlines the golden chain of redemption, stating that those God predestined he also called, justified, and—in past-tense certainty—glorified.

Philippians 1:6: Paul is confident that "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
Ephesians 1:13–14: Believers are "sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance" guaranteeing final redemption.

I'm sure you don't believe what any of these verses are saying, but please try to consider them in their intended context and not from your Arminian perspective.

 

[OMC]

a. This is just your caricature of what you think people who do not believe in OSAS must experience. However, no one before Augustine in the Fifth Century believed in OSAS as it is currently taught. Even Augustine believed that, in addition to having an encounter with God, a person had to be given the "gift of perseverence" to be saved at the final day

b. Also I, personally, do not see God as just waiting for me to sin so He can condemn me. I have known a few but usually these people end up leaving the Church. On the other hand, I also have seen many congregations who tolerate blatant immorality out of a perverted idea of grace. This is very common in these modern times. All I can say is that there is a ditch on both sides of the road

c. As to the forgiveness of future sins, I find this to be an untenable proposition. Another word for it might be a license to sin. When we first repent and believe in Jesus we are forgiven and cleansed of all past sins and reconciled to God. After that, forgiveness and cleansing proceeds according to the path laid out by the
Apostle John .
…6 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk [habitually] in the light as He is in the light, we have [continual] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son [continually] cleanses us from all sin (1 John 2:7-9)
The verbs in this passage: walking, having fellowship and being cleansed by the blood are in the present tense which, in Greek, indicates actions that are ongoing or continual.

d. Still, another argument against this idea of pantemporal forgiveness is the Savior's own template for prayer which includes the phrase forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Unlike what some popular movies have said: love does not mean never having to say you are sorry.

d. The reason why future sins cannot be forgiven is that they are not real. They are only potential realities. God never forgives or condemns for something they might do, or even for something He knows they will do. That would not be just.

Another name for a false Christian is simply an unbeliever, more particularly, one who is in denial about his true condition and is concealing it. Are you saying the Holy Spirit delivers warnings to those who do not even believe they are in any danger who are instead playing like they are acceptable to God for the sake of appearances? The idea that God does not issue warnings to his own people goes totally against the entire tenor of scripture all the way back to the first two humans whom He warned not to eat of the forbidden fruit

The claim that “no one before Augustine believed OSAS” is historically incorrect and textually irrelevant, because eternal security is not built on Augustine but on the words of Jesus Himself, who said His sheep will never perish and no one can snatch them from His hand, which is either true or it isn’t.
Their argument about “ditches on both sides” confuses pastoral failure with soteriology; immorality in congregations does not overturn Christ’s promise to keep His own.
Their objection to “future forgiveness” misunderstands the cross entirely — Jesus did not die only for past sins, but for all sins, otherwise no one could be saved, since every sin we commit after conversion would fall outside the atonement.
Their appeal to 1 John misreads Greek aspect: John describes the ongoing fellowship of the saved, not the conditional survival of the justified. Their argument that “future sins aren’t real yet” collapses under God’s omniscience and the once‑for‑all nature of Christ’s sacrifice (Heb 10:14).
And finally, their claim that warnings prove salvation can be lost ignores the fact that Scripture consistently distinguishes between true believers and false professors — Jesus says “I never knew you,” not “I knew you once and then you fell away.”
In short, every point they raise is either a category error, a misreading of the text, or a confusion between sanctification and justification; none of it overturns the plain, repeated, unambiguous promises of Christ and the apostles that those whom God saves, God keeps.

 

[Journey_man]

Only those who were never saved to begin with lose salvation. No where in scripture does it say a true believer loses it.
Scripture NEVER says a saved person can lose salvation.

John 10:28​

Never perish = never lost.

John 6:39​

None = none.

Romans 8:30​

Every justified person ends in glory.No dropouts.

Romans 8:38–39​

Nothing = nothing.

Hebrews 10:14​

Forever = forever.

1 Peter 1:5​

Kept by God, not by human performance.

There is zero biblical evidence of a true believer losing salvation.
So what are all those warnings for?

**Warnings are not about losing salvation.​

Warnings are about exposing false faith.**

Jesus Himself says: “Many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’… and I will say, ‘I never knew you.’”(Matthew 7:22–23)
Notice:
He does not say, “I knew you once, then you fell away.”
He says, “I NEVER knew you.”

Meaning:

They were never saved to begin with.​

Warnings exist because self‑deception exists.
Not because salvation can be lost.

Thanks brother, well said. I couldn't have explained it any clearer.

 

[lrs68]

Jesus, while teaching the Lord's Prayer said should we reject forgiveness that our Heavenly Father would reject forgiveness for us.

So if one rejects forgiveness then they can be snatched away by virtue of the Warning given by Christ.

Sins must be forgiven to be forgotten.

 

[OMC]

Jesus, while teaching the Lord's Prayer said should we reject forgiveness that our Heavenly Father would reject forgiveness for us.

So if one rejects forgiveness then they can be snatched away by virtue of the Warning given by Christ.

Sins must be forgiven to be forgotten

When Jesus teaches “forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us,”
He is not describing a saved person losing salvation, but the daily relational fellowship of a child with his Father; He is talking about parental forgiveness, not judicial forgiveness.
Judicial forgiveness — the forgiveness that removes condemnation — is settled once for all at the cross (“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”), and Jesus explicitly says His sheep will never perish and cannot be snatched from His hand.
The warning in the Lord’s Prayer is about the hypocrisy of a believer refusing to forgive while asking God for relational cleansing — it is about broken fellowship, not broken salvation.
If rejecting forgiveness could undo justification, then Christ’s once‑for‑all sacrifice (Heb 10:14) would be conditional, the Spirit’s seal (Eph 1:13–14) would be fragile, and Jesus’ promise to lose none of those given to Him (John 6:39) would be false.
“Sins must be forgiven to be forgotten” is true — and for the believer, they were forgiven at the cross, and God says He remembers them no more.
The Lord’s Prayer warns against a hardened heart, not a lost salvation; fellowship can be disrupted, but the Father never disowns His child.