Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[OMC]

Grinning here, text can be rubbish at conveying the full meaning of a comment, pretty sure i read yours wrong at first. We can have momentary experiences of thinking there must be a God, however, that's all they'll be if he doesn't make the spark a flame.

It really can be hard to capture tone in text — I get why you grinned. But you’re right about the deeper point: a momentary sense of “there must be a God” is just a spark, and a spark on its own doesn’t change a life. What matters is whether He fans that spark into a flame, whether He draws, convicts, awakens, and keeps pressing on the heart until belief becomes more than a passing feeling. People can have flashes of awe, fear, wonder, or longing — but unless God turns that moment into movement, it fades like smoke. The miracle isn’t the spark; it’s when God breathes on it, and a person steps into the light instead of walking away from it.

 

[LifelongLearner]

It really can be hard to capture tone in text — I get why you grinned. But you’re right about the deeper point: a momentary sense of “there must be a God” is just a spark, and a spark on its own doesn’t change a life. What matters is whether He fans that spark into a flame, whether He draws, convicts, awakens, and keeps pressing on the heart until belief becomes more than a passing feeling. People can have flashes of awe, fear, wonder, or longing — but unless God turns that moment into movement, it fades like smoke. The miracle isn’t the spark; it’s when God breathes on it, and a person steps into the light instead of walking away from it.

Exactly! Lucky enough to have lived in areas with lovely woodland and the countryside at hand, most of my life. Often when out walking, i'd see something so wondrous it provoked that must be a God thought, which went no further.

Until it did, pretty spectacularly and absolutely out of the blue.

 

[rogerg]

Grinning here, text can be rubbish at conveying the full meaning of a comment, pretty sure i read yours wrong at first. We can have momentary experiences of thinking there must be a God, however, that's all they'll be if he doesn't make the spark a flame.

Online text is definitely tricky! I completely agree that man can never save himself.
The only distinction I would respectfully make is that because we are born completely dead in our sins, our natural flesh cannot even produce that initial spark of desire for the true God. He doesn't just fan an existing spark—He has to create the spark, light the fire, and sustain the flame from start to finish! It is all of His grace

 

[Inquisitor]

Brother, the idea that a truly born‑again believer can lose salvation is not supported by Scripture. Jesus teaches that regeneration produces a fundamentally new nature, and that new nature inevitably bears fruit. Matthew 7:17–18 is not describing a saved person becoming unsaved — it is distinguishing between the regenerate and the unregenerate.
A “good tree” represents a person whom God has truly transformed. Jesus says a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, meaning that the new heart God gives will ultimately produce righteousness. This does not mean believers never sin, but that their lives cannot end in permanent rebellion. God preserves those He saves.
Good works do not earn salvation, nor do they keep salvation. They are the outward evidence of God’s inward work. A true believer may fall into serious sin, but God will not allow them to remain there permanently. He disciplines His children and restores them.
The Bible warns us against self‑justification, but it also assures us that salvation is God’s work from beginning to end. Those whom He regenerates, He keeps.

How do you understand the additional teaching in Matthew 7?

Matthew 7:24-26
Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on
the rock. And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not
fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act on them,
will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

[OMC]

How do you understand the additional teaching in Matthew 7?

Matthew 7:24-26
Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on
the rock. And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not
fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act on them,
will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand

Jesus isn’t introducing a new category of people here; He’s explaining the difference between hearing truth and responding to it. The wise man is the one who not only hears Christ’s words but acts on them — meaning he aligns his life with Christ’s teaching, trusts Him, obeys Him, and builds his entire foundation on the reality of who Christ is. That’s why the storms don’t destroy him: his stability comes from the Rock, not from himself. The foolish man hears the same words but does nothing with them — he has exposure to truth without submission to it, acknowledgment without obedience, interest without transformation. Both men hear; only one responds. And Jesus’ point is simple: the true disciple is revealed not by hearing Christ, but by building on Christ. The storms expose what the foundation really is — not what the person claimed it was.

 

[Inquisitor]

Your different approach to understanding salvation, is unbiblical. The Bible doesn't support your view, that a born again believer can lose his/her salvation. Matthew 7:18 is not teaching that a true believer can lose their salvation; rather, it is used to prove that a genuinely regenerated person will inevitably produce good fruit.

In Matthew 7:17-18 a "good tree" represents a person transformed by God (regenerated), while a "bad tree" represents an unregenerate person. Jesus states that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, meaning a truly new heart given by God will fundamentally and ultimately result in a life oriented toward righteousness.

Good works and spiritual fruit do not earn or maintain salvation. Instead, they act as the visible, outward proof that a supernatural change has already occurred inside the person. God preserves those He saves. A true believer may stumble and sin heavily, but they will never completely or permanently forfeit a state of grace.

Galatians 6:6-8
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. Do not be deceived, God is
not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction
from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Online text is definitely tricky! I completely agree that man can never save himself.
The only distinction I would respectfully make is that because we are born completely dead in our sins, our natural flesh cannot even produce that initial spark of desire for the true God. He doesn't just fan an existing spark—He has to create the spark, light the fire, and sustain the flame from start to finish! It is all of His grace

No worries, to me it rocks we're not carbon copies. You and i seem to have minor differences but agree on what really matters, which is what matters. God's blessings and an all that's good too from me.

*Edited repost Rogerg:*

 

[Genez]

It isn't when faith is given to someone as a free gift from God.

And? Shoe laces not tied properly will become undone....

 

[GWH]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him freely to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question about God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.

The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “IF you [freely choose to] believe in the Lord Jesus, you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. IF connotes God’s condition for repentance (cf. the IFs in John 8:7, 14, 16, 19, 24, 31, 36, 39, 42, 46, 51, 54, 55). Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God enables/gives every sinful soul the ability and opportunity (exercising moral free will/MFW) to repent of sin (Matt. 4:17) and seek salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11, Eph. 2:8). As Heb. 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Seeking God/Truth is the beginning of saving faith (2Thes. 2:10), and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity (via MFW) to repent/have saving faith per God's Word: Gen. 3:6, Deut. 30:19, Josh. 24:15, 2Chron. 7:14, Matt. 4:17, 7:7, 23:37, John 3:16, 6:39, Acts 2:38, 16:31, 28:27, Rom. 1:20, 2:4, 11&15, 3:22, 4:23-24, 5:15&19, 10:9-13, 11:32, Gal. 3:8&14, Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 2:10-11, Col. 1:19-23, 1Tim. 2:3-4, etc.

 

[LifelongLearner]

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him freely to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question about God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.

The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “IF you [freely choose to] believe in the Lord Jesus, you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. IF connotes God’s condition for repentance (cf. the IFs in John 8:7, 14, 16, 19, 24, 31, 36, 39, 42, 46, 51, 54, 55). Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God enables/gives every sinful soul the ability and opportunity (exercising moral free will/MFW) to repent of sin (Matt. 4:17) and seek salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11, Eph. 2:8). As Heb. 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Seeking God/Truth is the beginning of saving faith (2Thes. 2:10), and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity (via MFW) to repent/have saving faith per God's Word: Gen. 3:6, Deut. 30:19, Josh. 24:15, 2Chron. 7:14, Matt. 4:17, 7:7, 23:37, John 3:16, 6:39, Acts 2:38, 16:31, 28:27, Rom. 1:20, 2:4, 11&15, 3:22, 4:23-24, 5:15&19, 10:9-13, 11:32, Gal. 3:8&14, Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 2:10-11, Col. 1:19-23, 1Tim. 2:3-4, etc.

Hmm! Call me cynical but you showing up with so much unnecessary waffle when some sanity had returned to this thread, makes me feel a li'l suspicious. By that i mean you have given me so much reason to be more than a little suspicious.

 

[Inquisitor]

The question should always be “What does Scripture teach?” And Scripture teaches that salvation is God’s work from beginning to end (Philippians 1:6), yet the call to faith is real and binding (Romans 10:9–13)

That's correct.

The predestination and the foreknew (foreknown) aspect is misunderstood by both Calvinism and Arminianism.

Calvinism states humanity has no say in the divine election process at all. God chose the elect before the world began.

Whereas Arminianism states God elects because God foreknows who will respond to the gospel, a personal response.

There are two key words in this dialogue between Calvinism and Arminianism; predestination and foreknew.

Jesus Christ was predestined from all eternity and His death on the cross was the royal plan from the very beginning.

On that point both sides concede.

Now for predestination and foreknew.

In the letter to the Romans "foreknew" is referring to the Jews in the context (Romans 2 to Romans 11)

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would
be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
So what's the embedded context?

The whole point of Paul complex and misunderstood dialogue is that the Jews failed to achieve righteousness through
the law. Yet the Gentiles accessed that divine righteousness by faith in Jesus as Abraham did.

Romans 11:25-26
For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own
estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel
will be saved; just as it is written.

Tell me whether you can see the background context?

Now we look at Romans 8:29 in that context.

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew (the Jews), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would
be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters (both Jews and Gentiles).

Both Arminius and Calvin overlooked the embedded context in the letter to the Romans.

 

[Inquisitor]

Agree, Romans 4:3 leaps to mind "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" Faith isn't a work, there are quite a few scriptures which prove it isn't.

Faith is definitely not a work but a mere response to the promise of the gospel message; Christ crucified for eternal life.

Reconciliation to God belongs to Christ alone.

The Christian life is a continuous work a new creation built for good works.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus isn’t introducing a new category of people here; He’s explaining the difference between hearing truth and responding to it. The wise man is the one who not only hears Christ’s words but acts on them — meaning he aligns his life with Christ’s teaching, trusts Him, obeys Him, and builds his entire foundation on the reality of who Christ is. That’s why the storms don’t destroy him: his stability comes from the Rock, not from himself. The foolish man hears the same words but does nothing with them — he has exposure to truth without submission to it, acknowledgment without obedience, interest without transformation. Both men hear; only one responds. And Jesus’ point is simple: the true disciple is revealed not by hearing Christ, but by building on Christ. The storms expose what the foundation really is — not what the person claimed it was.

Exactly the point of the paragraph.

Or better explained as it's not knowing the mechanics of salvation but the application of that salvation to others.

 

[GWH]

Hmm! Call me cynical but you showing up with so much unnecessary waffle when some sanity had returned to this thread, makes me feel a li'l suspicious. By that i mean you have given me so much reason to be more than a little suspicious.

And because you do not affirm the truth/sanity of what I posted, apparently you have learned nothing from discussion with MFWers on this thread and thus I suspect you are NOT a life-long learner.

However, if I discern wrongly, I invite you to share something you have learned via discussions with MFWers on CC about God's nature (divine omnilove) in the thread with that OP: "What folks have learned...". Thanks.

 

[LifelongLearner]

And because you do not affirm the truth/sanity of what I posted, apparently you have learned nothing from discussion with MFWers on this thread and thus I suspect you are NOT a life-long learner.

However, if I discern wrongly, I invite you to share something you have learned via discussions with MFWers on CC about God's nature (divine omnilove) in the thread with that OP: "What folks have learned...". Thanks.

You are definitely not a member i can respect/take seriously in any way and i'm fully aware you love to troll. Had several spiritual exchanges with other reasonable people on my thread over the past few days; read some of them if you haven't already.

 

[Journey_man]

Brother, both Arminianism and Calvinism are attempts to explain how God saves sinners, but Scripture itself is our final authority. We must test every theological system by the Word, not by tradition or preference (Acts 17:11).

Calvinism emphasizes God’s sovereign initiative in salvation (John 6:37; Ephesians 1:4–5). Arminianism emphasizes human responsibility and the universal offer of grace (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9). Both systems contain biblical truths, and both can be distorted when taken beyond Scripture.

A Christian must hold two things together: God truly saves by His sovereign grace, and humans are genuinely commanded to repent and believe. Scripture affirms both without contradiction.

The question should always be “What does Scripture teach?” And Scripture teaches that salvation is God’s work from beginning to end (Philippians 1:6), yet the call to faith is real and binding (Romans 10:9–13)

The Jews in Acts 17:11 did what every believer should do. They heard a Shepherd teaching, then they did their homework as every good student should do. But at no time does the Bible teach what you're suggesting, that we should set ourselves up as our own Shepherds and final authority.

Your suggestion promotes departing from the Apostolic Church model and forming your own Denomination. Many have taken your advice and now Christianity is divided into 49,000 Denominations. But the Lord Jesus established only One Church.

God appointed Shepherds to watch over us Sheep, so it's not wise to shun Gods design and appoint yourself as your own authority. God doesn't give the gift of understanding and teaching to the Sheep, He gives that gift to our Shepherds, so they are responsible for our soul.

Calvinism doesn't emphasise Gods "sovereign initiative", God does not initiate something and then wait to see how you respond. He either saves you or He leaves you dead in your sin, there is no third option.

1 Tim 2:4 is not saying what you're suggesting. God is not trying to save every single person, in fact He chose not to save the majority of mankind. The Lord Jesus said "I do not pray for the world". "the world" in this context means unbelievers or "non elect". He only came to save the elect and nobody else.

2 Peter 3:9 is not referring to every single person, instead Pater said "you" meaning his audience which were all believers. The verse is simply saying that God is waiting until the very last of His elect is saved then He will return.

You claim both systems contain Biblical truth, but the Devil knows the scriptures better than any human. He mixes the truth with lies. He is very crafty and cunning, He has deceived the whole world and He rules over it. But Gods elect are not under His rule and He cannot deceive us because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth.

 

[OMC]

The Jews in Acts 17:11 did what every believer should do. They heard a Shepherd teaching, then they did their homework as every good student should do. But at no time does the Bible teach what you're suggesting, that we should set ourselves up as our own Shepherds and final authority.

Your suggestion promotes departing from the Apostolic Church model and forming your own Denomination. Many have taken your advice and now Christianity is divided into 49,000 Denominations. But the Lord Jesus established only One Church.

God appointed Shepherds to watch over us Sheep, so it's not wise to shun Gods design and appoint yourself as your own authority. God doesn't give the gift of understanding and teaching to the Sheep, He gives that gift to our Shepherds, so they are responsible for our soul.

Calvinism doesn't emphasise Gods "sovereign initiative", God does not initiate something and then wait to see how you respond. He either saves you or He leaves you dead in your sin, there is no third option.

1 Tim 2:4 is not saying what you're suggesting. God is not trying to save every single person, in fact He chose not to save the majority of mankind. The Lord Jesus said "I do not pray for the world". "the world" in this context means unbelievers or "non elect". He only came to save the elect and nobody else.

2 Peter 3:9 is not referring to every single person, instead Pater said "you" meaning his audience which were all believers. The verse is simply saying that God is waiting until the very last of His elect is saved then He will return.

You claim both systems contain Biblical truth, but the Devil knows the scriptures better than any human. He mixes the truth with lies. He is very crafty and cunning, He has deceived the whole world and He rules over it. But Gods elect are not under His rule and He cannot deceive us because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth

the Bereans were not acting as their own Shepherds; they were obeying the Shepherd by testing every teaching against Scripture (Acts 17:11), because while Christ appoints pastors to feed the flock, He never removes the believer’s duty to discern truth (1 Thess. 5:21), and no doctrine — whether Calvinist, Arminian, or anything else — can override the plain testimony of God’s Word.

 

[Inquisitor]

A true believer may stumble and sin heavily, but they will never completely or permanently forfeit a state of grace

The View That Christians Can Fall from Grace

This perspective relies on explicit warnings and conditional statements found throughout the New Testament epistles and Gospels: [1]

Galatians 5:4: The Apostle Paul writes that believers who try to earn their righteousness through the Mosaic Law have "been severed from Christ" and "fallen away from grace". [1, 2]

Hebrews 6:4–6: The writer warns that individuals who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit can still "fall away," making renewal to repentance impossible. [1]

The Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:13): Jesus describes people who believe for a while, but in a time of testing or temptation, they fall away. [1, 2, 3]

The View That True Believers Cannot Lose Salvation

This perspective teaches that genuine believers are eternally secure and that apparent "falling away" reveals a lack of true, regenerating faith from the beginning: [1]

John 10:28–29: Jesus states that He gives eternal life to His sheep, they will never perish, and no one can snatch them out of His hand. [1]

Romans 8:38–39: Paul declares that nothing in all creation—including death, life, or future events—can separate a believer from the love of God in Christ.

Alternative view of Galatians 5:4: Proponents argue this verse describes a believer slipping out of a daily experience of grace into legalism, rather than losing their eternal salvation or status as a child of God.

 

[GWH]

You are definitely not a member i can respect/take seriously in any way and i'm fully aware you love to troll. Had several spiritual exchanges with other reasonable people on my thread over the past few days; read some of them if you haven't already.

You accuse without evidence, so who is trolling whom?

The astute with whom you supposedly had spiritual exchanges will note that I provided a reason for my discernment:
because you do not affirm the truth/sanity of what I posted.

What I posted was this:

[[[A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him freely to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question about God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.

The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “IF you [freely choose to] believe in the Lord Jesus, you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. IF connotes God’s condition for repentance (cf. the IFs in John 8:7, 14, 16, 19, 24, 31, 36, 39, 42, 46, 51, 54, 55). Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God enables/gives every sinful soul the ability and opportunity (exercising moral free will/MFW) to repent of sin (Matt. 4:17) and seek salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11, Eph. 2:8). As Heb. 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Seeking God/Truth is the beginning of saving faith (2Thes. 2:10), and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity (via MFW) to repent/have saving faith per God's Word: Gen. 3:6, Deut. 30:19, Josh. 24:15, 2Chron. 7:14, Matt. 4:17, 7:7, 23:37, John 3:16, 6:39, Acts 2:38, 16:31, 28:27, Rom. 1:20, 2:4, 11&15, 3:22, 4:23-24, 5:15&19, 10:9-13, 11:32, Gal. 3:8&14, Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 2:10-11, Col. 1:19-23, 1Tim. 2:3-4, etc.]]]

What was wrong/untrue/trolling about that?!

 

[Inquisitor]

Your different approach to understanding salvation, is unbiblical. The Bible doesn't support your view, that a born again believer can lose his/her salvation.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to
his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

I cannot fathom how someone with a knowledge of the New Testament could ever say that a Christian. Cannot fall away
from Jesus Christ.

Israel in the Old Testament fell away from God many times and that is the example set in stone.

The Catholic Church fell from grace more than a thousand years ago and that is the bulk of the Christian Church.

Your telling me 'once saved always saved'.

We have already begun the great falling away that Paul spoke of in Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Paul warns believers not to be deceived about the timing of the "Day of the Lord". He writes that the day will not
arrive "unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed".

The Lord returns after the falling away takes place.