How Do You Tell the Difference Between a REAL Christian and a FAKE Christian?

[SonJudgment]

If only it were indeed so pure in its body.

That Creed relies on philosophical terminology—such as "substance," "essence," and "person"—terms that don't appear in the Bible or its original languages apart from perhaps some of the more modern versions that are known to be replete with errors.

While the Bible speaks of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the rigidity in the use of metaphysical definitions in the Creed to describe the Trinity are developments known to have originated and thus built upon later, Greek philosophy rather than direct, biblical revelations. You Gentiles seem to have a fixation on such alterations to the wondrous languages from which the Bible was translated. From this Greek-infected perspective upon which the creed was built, its creators attempted to define a mystery using human logic and terminology that the biblical authors were NOT inspired by the Lord to write. The sheer vanity of including such metaphysical concepts and terms is mostly descriptive of Eastern Mysticism's bent upon spiritual things. That's problematic in my mind.

Another point that I find contention with is the Creed's use of exclusive and absolute language where the scriptures are not so concrete in the same direction. For example, the Athanasian Creed explicitly states that whoever doesn't hold the Catholic faith "whole and undefiled" is condemned to "everlasting damnation," thus standing upon a works-based salvational grounding the Bible doesn't uphold for us today under the Gospel of Grace.

This legalistic approach to salvation, based squarely on the precise, intellectual assent to a complex theological formula, isn't found to have been inspired by what you Gentiles call the New Testament. The formers of that creed point to biblical themes of faith, grace, and the simplicity of the Gospel as being at odds with a requirement to master the nuanced distinctions of Trinitarian metaphysics to avoid hell. That isn't at all what either Christ taught, the twelve nor Paul, even though the Kingdom Gospel is somewhat more works oriented in the arena of perseverance as am ongoing demonstration of one's faith.

That Creed also oversimplifies or misrepresents the relationship between the persons of the Trinity contrary to how they're described in the Bible. While the Creed emphasizes a strict equality and co-eternity, certain passages suggest a functional subordination of the Son to the Father (e.g., John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I"). They contend that the Creed's insistence on absolute equality ignores the relational dynamics presented in the Gospels, therefore I don't see that creed as absolutely representative of the Bible it claims to represent.

MM

No this is vastly incorrect. Legalism would be I have to tell you you have to follow the Law to be saved in which case it's probably too late for you and basically the whole world anyways. The Athanasian Creed is the essential Christian statement of faith and it states you have to have faith in God to be saved, furthermore anyone that doesn't have faith in God is certainly going to be damned to hellfire. This is the bookends of the Creed, and it is the central message of the Bible. Thus if one does not affirm the Athanasian Creed they do not believe the Bible fully, they probably have not read the full Bible, they do not really believe in God and Jesus and what the Bible teaches and promises. Thus as a tool for the discernment of spirits; and a way easy way to force a revelation of the true Christians from fake Christians, and even a way to gauge somewhat their levels of faith and gifts; you just ask them to affirm the Athanasian Creed. It is better even to do it line by line, as where they disagree, that's where their demons, heresies, or their pagan religions are at, and thus you can lock in and start kicking the devils around in their minds until the lies are loosened up enough, and they can pull the splinters out of their own eyes and then have power to do the same for others once they convert to the only true religion of Christianity which faith one must fully understand and believe to be saved, praise Jesus.

 

[Musicmaster]

Define what you mean by salvation? If you only mean "redeemed" then no, it doesn't include taking up your cross and following Him. But if you include sanctification and glorification, then yes, you must be crucified with Christ so that it is no longer you that live but Christ that lives in you.

By nature we have a serpentine nature. There are many Christians who are redeemed and yet gossip and allow a root of bitterness to grow. Just because you are redeemed doesn't mean you are transformed into the image and likeness of God. There are levels of obedience, the very first thing you are to obey is to be baptized into the name of the Father, and Son and Holy Spirit. So it is a process, not "either or". You start your Christian life with being obedient to the charge to be baptized, and you proceed from there.

That's a considerable amount of separating out salvational reality into distinctive stages or compartments. Do you have scriptural backing for that?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

No this is vastly incorrect. Legalism would be I have to tell you you have to follow the Law to be saved in which case it's probably too late for you and basically the whole world anyways. The Athanasian Creed is the essential Christian statement of faith and it states you have to have faith in God to be saved, furthermore anyone that doesn't have faith in God is certainly going to be damned to hellfire. This is the bookends of the Creed, and it is the central message of the Bible. Thus if one does not affirm the Athanasian Creed they do not believe the Bible fully, they probably have not read the full Bible, they do not really believe in God and Jesus and what the Bible teaches and promises. Thus as a tool for the discernment of spirits; and a way easy way to force a revelation of the true Christians from fake Christians, and even a way to gauge somewhat their levels of faith and gifts; you just ask them to affirm the Athanasian Creed. It is better even to do it line by line, as where they disagree, that's where their demons, heresies, or their pagan religions are at, and thus you can lock in and start kicking the devils around in their minds until the lies are loosened up enough, and they can pull the splinters out of their own eyes and then have power to do the same for others once they convert to the only true religion of Christianity which faith one must fully understand and believe to be saved, praise Jesus.

Given that creed is external to the Cannon itself, it matters not at all that I or anyone else places any faith in it in addition to the canonized scriptures. The closes thing the Bible itself comes to including external writings is the Book of Hebrews, which wasn't written by any of the apostles, but rather by those who lived with the apostles and wrote down what the twelve taught them and that they heard them teach and preach to Israel. That alone is the only means for entry that book was canonized.

MM

 

[Lynx]

SAPs (Self Appointed Preachers) are thicker than mosquitoes this time of year...

 

[ZNP]

That's a considerable amount of separating out salvational reality into distinctive stages or compartments. Do you have scriptural backing for that?

MM

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I would define salvation as being conformed to the image of His Son. But someone who is living in sin is not conformed to the image of his son. They might be redeemed, but while living in sin they are not going to be glorified.

Many will quote the scripture that we are not justified by the works of the law but by faith. That is true. That it is nothing of ourselves, but it is because of the price Jesus paid on Calvary. That is also true. But the Bible never says that sanctification is not of us. You have to obey the Lord to be separated unto God. That is what Baptism signifies, you are obeying the word of God to separated unto the Father, Son and Spirit. When you are immersed into the triune God you will be sanctified. But it is up to you, if you are in the world, immersed into movies, or drugs or bars, or whatever you will not be sanctified.

Ultimately the goal is to be glorified. But there is no glory in receiving a free gift. The New Testament refers to receiving various crowns, these crowns are given to those who compete in the games and win. If you weren't justified you wouldn't be allowed to compete. But after that competing is up to you. The Lord will train you, He will supply you, He will lead you and guide you. But if you refuse, that is up to you. For example, everyone has been charged to be the Lord's witnesses. He doesn't force you to witness, but you have been charged to. If you choose not to then that is up to you.

To be fair most of Christianity equates being justified to being saved. That is a very poor salvation. No crown, no reward, no glorification, nothing. I equate salvation to being conformed to the image of the Son of God.

 

[OMC]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I would define salvation as being conformed to the image of His Son. But someone who is living in sin is not conformed to the image of his son. They might be redeemed, but while living in sin they are not going to be glorified.

Many will quote the scripture that we are not justified by the works of the law but by faith. That is true. That it is nothing of ourselves, but it is because of the price Jesus paid on Calvary. That is also true. But the Bible never says that sanctification is not of us. You have to obey the Lord to be separated unto God. That is what Baptism signifies, you are obeying the word of God to separated unto the Father, Son and Spirit. When you are immersed into the triune God you will be sanctified. But it is up to you, if you are in the world, immersed into movies, or drugs or bars, or whatever you will not be sanctified.

Ultimately the goal is to be glorified. But there is no glory in receiving a free gift. The New Testament refers to receiving various crowns, these crowns are given to those who compete in the games and win. If you weren't justified you wouldn't be allowed to compete. But after that competing is up to you. The Lord will train you, He will supply you, He will lead you and guide you. But if you refuse, that is up to you. For example, everyone has been charged to be the Lord's witnesses. He doesn't force you to witness, but you have been charged to. If you choose not to then that is up to you.

To be fair most of Christianity equates being justified to being saved. That is a very poor salvation. No crown, no reward, no glorification, nothing. I equate salvation to being conformed to the image of the Son of God

Brother, you’re confusing the goal of salvation with the ground of salvation—Paul does not define salvation as “being conformed to the image of His Son,” he defines salvation as God’s sovereign act of foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying a people, and conformity to Christ is the result of that salvation, not the condition for it; if salvation were “being conformed,” then no believer would be saved until resurrection, because glorification is future, yet Paul speaks of justification as a completed act and glorification as so certain he puts it in the past tense. Living in sin affects fellowship, discipline, and reward, but it does not undo justification, because justification is God’s declaration, not man’s performance. Sanctification is synergistic in experience but monergistic in origin—God sets a man apart before the man ever walks in that separation (1 Cor. 1:2), and baptism signifies that divine act, it does not create it. Crowns are rewards for faithfulness, not salvation itself; salvation is the free gift, conformity is the Spirit’s lifelong work, and glorification is God’s final act—not a prize earned by human effort. To equate salvation with conformity is to make salvation depend on human performance, which Paul explicitly denies, and to make glorification uncertain, which Paul explicitly secures.

 

[Musicmaster]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I would define salvation as being conformed to the image of His Son. But someone who is living in sin is not conformed to the image of his son. They might be redeemed, but while living in sin they are not going to be glorified.

Many will quote the scripture that we are not justified by the works of the law but by faith. That is true. That it is nothing of ourselves, but it is because of the price Jesus paid on Calvary. That is also true. But the Bible never says that sanctification is not of us. You have to obey the Lord to be separated unto God. That is what Baptism signifies, you are obeying the word of God to separated unto the Father, Son and Spirit.

What baptism, water or Spirit?

How do you define sanctification?

When you are immersed into the triune God you will be sanctified.

So, now you appear to be pointing at water baptism, which does NOT have anything to do with sanctification as it's understood in the Greek.

As to a saved person still sinning, that's inclusive of us all. If you're going to cast into this the working of sin by intent, that too was addressed by Paul as to its outcome, which still doesn't deny nor nullify the sanctifying power of Holy Spirit within ALL redeemed/saved peoples.

But it is up to you, if you are in the world, immersed into movies, or drugs or bars, or whatever you will not be sanctified.

Ultimately the goal is to be glorified. But there is no glory in receiving a free gift. The New Testament refers to receiving various crowns, these crowns are given to those who compete in the games and win. If you weren't justified you wouldn't be allowed to compete. But after that competing is up to you. The Lord will train you, He will supply you, He will lead you and guide you. But if you refuse, that is up to you. For example, everyone has been charged to be the Lord's witnesses. He doesn't force you to witness, but you have been charged to. If you choose not to then that is up to you.

To be fair most of Christianity equates being justified to being saved. That is a very poor salvation. No crown, no reward, no glorification, nothing. I equate salvation to being conformed to the image of the Son of God.

You seem to be confusing glorification with rewards. We ALL will receive glorified bodies who are in the body of Christ. So, without clarifications, I'm not sure I can agree with you.

MM

 

[ZNP]

Brother, you’re confusing the goal of salvation with the ground of salvation—Paul does not define salvation as “being conformed to the image of His Son,” he defines salvation as God’s sovereign act of foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying a people, and conformity to Christ is the result of that salvation, not the condition for it; if salvation were “being conformed,” then no believer would be saved until resurrection, because glorification is future, yet Paul speaks of justification as a completed act and glorification as so certain he puts it in the past tense. Living in sin affects fellowship, discipline, and reward, but it does not undo justification, because justification is God’s declaration, not man’s performance. Sanctification is synergistic in experience but monergistic in origin—God sets a man apart before the man ever walks in that separation (1 Cor. 1:2), and baptism signifies that divine act, it does not create it. Crowns are rewards for faithfulness, not salvation itself; salvation is the free gift, conformity is the Spirit’s lifelong work, and glorification is God’s final act—not a prize earned by human effort. To equate salvation with conformity is to make salvation depend on human performance, which Paul explicitly denies, and to make glorification uncertain, which Paul explicitly secures.

I'm not, most of Christianity is. When they tell you that you are saved, are they telling you that you are at the starting line or the finish line? How about when they say everyone in the church will be raptured. Foolishness. No sin is going to enter heaven, if your robes aren't white you won't enter in. Doesn't mean you haven't been redeemed, just means you haven't been sanctified and therefore will not be glorified. I believe you get a second chance, but Hebrews is clear, if the land just brings forth thorns and thistles it is near a curse. The land will be burned to get rid of all the thorns and weeds. But the land still belongs to the owner.

I am well aware that the crowns are a reward for faithfulness, and I am aware that those crowns are not a salvation from hell. But I consider "salvation from hell" to be a very, very low bar. Hell wasn't created for man. I don't disagree that you can call that "salvation" but wow, no aspirations for anything.

 

[OMC]

I'm not, most of Christianity is. When they tell you that you are saved, are they telling you that you are at the starting line or the finish line? How about when they say everyone in the church will be raptured. Foolishness. No sin is going to enter heaven, if your robes aren't white you won't enter in. Doesn't mean you haven't been redeemed, just means you haven't been sanctified and therefore will not be glorified. I believe you get a second chance, but Hebrews is clear, if the land just brings forth thorns and thistles it is near a curse. The land will be burned to get rid of all the thorns and weeds. But the land still belongs to the owner.

I am well aware that the crowns are a reward for faithfulness, and I am aware that those crowns are not a salvation from hell. But I consider "salvation from hell" to be a very, very low bar. Hell wasn't created for man. I don't disagree that you can call that "salvation" but wow, no aspirations for anything.

Brother, I hear what you’re trying to say—you’re reacting to a version of Christianity that treats salvation as nothing more than “not going to hell,” and you’re pushing back because you see in Scripture a far richer, higher calling; but in doing so, you’re blurring the lines God Himself keeps clear.
Justification is the foundation, sanctification is the journey, glorification is the completion, and Scripture never lets us collapse those three into one.
When Paul says, “whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Romans 8:30), he’s not describing a race where some justified people fail to reach the finish—he’s describing a chain God Himself completes.
When Hebrews warns that land producing “thorns and thistles” is “near unto cursing” (Hebrews 6:8), it’s not threatening the loss of glorification—it’s warning about fruitlessness, discipline, and loss of reward.
And when Revelation says, “they have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Revelation 7:14), it’s not describing a second chance after failure—it’s describing the cleansing that belongs to every redeemed person, even those who struggled.
You’re right that crowns are rewards for faithfulness, and you’re right that salvation is more than escaping hell—but salvation is not less than that, and it is not earned by the believer’s performance.
The aspirations you’re talking about—holiness, obedience, Christlikeness—are real, beautiful, and necessary, but they flow from salvation, not into it. My aim isn’t to diminish your zeal; it’s to keep your zeal anchored in the same grace that saved you in the first place.

 

[ZNP]

What baptism, water or Spirit?

How do you define sanctification?



So, now you appear to be pointing at water baptism, which does NOT have anything to do with sanctification as it's understood in the Greek.

As to a saved person still sinning, that's inclusive of us all. If you're going to cast into this the working of sin by intent, that too was addressed by Paul as to its outcome, which still doesn't deny nor nullify the sanctifying power of Holy Spirit within ALL redeemed/saved peoples.



You seem to be confusing glorification with rewards. We ALL will receive glorified bodies who are in the body of Christ. So, without clarifications, I'm not sure I can agree with you.

MM

We are told to "believe and be baptized". To be baptized in water is the first time a believer will obey the word of God. It is your first act of obedience and it signifies being immersed into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Sanctification is seen in how wood is petrified. Wood is made of carbon, just like our natural man, our flesh. It will decay. But if the wood is immersed into a water solution that is saturated with jasper the molecules of wood will be replaced molecule by molecule with the jasper. So then there are two parts to sanctification. The first is your choice to be immersed in water saturated with Jasper and the second is the process of replacing the wood molecule by molecule with the jasper. You control where you are immersed, God will do the rest if you immerse yourself in Him. Jasper is composed of 3 atoms, one Silicon, and two Oxygen. It is 3 atoms but one molecule. The first oxygen depicts God the father as the source of life. The silicon depicts the Son of God. If we were not composed of carbon we would be composed of Silicon. Carbon is far less abundant than Silicon. Then the final Oxygen depicts the Holy Spirit, the pneuma, the breath of God. So to be immersed into the word of God, into prayer, into fellowship, into meeting with others, into service, into worship, and into witnessing.

Yes, the purpose of God's calling is that we would all be glorified and the end result is "the redemption of our body". That is all true. The point is that when you believed in the Lord your body was not glorified and you did not receive the redemption of your body. So it is not "the free gift of God". The free gift of God is justification. You do not need to do anything to be justified other than repent of your sins and receive the work that Jesus did on the cross.

This allows you to begin the process of sanctification. However, if you are not immersed into the triune God you will not be sanctified. If you think showing up once a week to church to hear the message is enough you are greatly deceived.

If you include Catholics as much as 67% of Americans identify as Christian, that is 240 million people.

21% of Americans say they attend church every week.

However, based on actual attendance it is 5% of Americans. That is about 18 million.

Now suppose half of those attending every week feel that is sufficient. It means that 67% consider themselves Christians and will claim they are saved while about 2.5% are actively being sanctified day by day. That would be 9 million.

There are a lot of possible ways to minister and serve the Lord. But when it comes to evangelism and witnessing, I don't want to imply that the Gideons are the only ministry actively involved in evangelizing. However they are responsible for giving away 80 million bibles a year and that indicates they are likely evangelizing 240 million people (about 1 bible is given away for every four people they talk to). I am using the Gideons as an example because I can get the numbers quite easily for them. There are about 240,000 Gideons in the US. So assume that 10x that number are actively heeding the Lord's charge to be His witnesses in the US. That would be 2.4 million or 1% of those who "identify as Christian".

Jesus said "why do you say you love me if you don't do the things I tell you to do?"

Now the Bible is crystal clear that there are different groups or categories of Christians. The Lord doesn't use the term "salvation" in describing them, so I don't either. You have those who bury their talent, you have foolish virgins, you have those that are faithful servants, you have those that the Lord divorces, and their are many warnings given to those who don't watch, or to those who are not obedient to the word.

I am not interested in a debate over "salvation". If you want to think that "justification" is "salvation" go for it. Clearly you haven't read the bible. In fact I avoid the waste of time Bible discussions on this forum because they are to my limited observation a big waste of time.

 

[ZNP]

Brother, I hear what you’re trying to say—you’re reacting to a version of Christianity that treats salvation as nothing more than “not going to hell,” and you’re pushing back because you see in Scripture a far richer, higher calling; but in doing so, you’re blurring the lines God Himself keeps clear.
Justification is the foundation, sanctification is the journey, glorification is the completion, and Scripture never lets us collapse those three into one.
When Paul says, “whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Romans 8:30), he’s not describing a race where some justified people fail to reach the finish—he’s describing a chain God Himself completes.
When Hebrews warns that land producing “thorns and thistles” is “near unto cursing” (Hebrews 6:8), it’s not threatening the loss of glorification—it’s warning about fruitlessness, discipline, and loss of reward.
And when Revelation says, “they have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Revelation 7:14), it’s not describing a second chance after failure—it’s describing the cleansing that belongs to every redeemed person, even those who struggled.
You’re right that crowns are rewards for faithfulness, and you’re right that salvation is more than escaping hell—but salvation is not less than that, and it is not earned by the believer’s performance.
The aspirations you’re talking about—holiness, obedience, Christlikeness—are real, beautiful, and necessary, but they flow from salvation, not into it. My aim isn’t to diminish your zeal; it’s to keep your zeal anchored in the same grace that saved you in the first place.

"A version of Christianity"? Really, it is simply one version?

1. If you include Catholics as much as 67% of Americans identify as Christian.

That is 240 million people in the US who think they are Christians.

2. 21% of Americans say they attend church every week. However, based on actual attendance it is 5% of Americans.

That is about 18 million people who think they are Christian actually attend church every week even though the Bible is very clear "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together". So out of 240 million 222 million are deceiving themselves.

3. How many of those attending every week feel that is sufficient? Go, listen to the sermon, that is all you need to do? I don't know the answer. I do know that we have 200 who come each week to the meeting and I also know that once a month our church helps out at a soup kitchen and only 2 of those 200 show up. But let's assume the number is ten times that and there are 20 out of the 200 who are actively serving the Lord in ministry and getting into the word of God and prayer daily.

That is 1.8 million out of 240 million who identify as Christian. That is less than 1% of those who identify as Christian. So 99% is "a version of Christianity"?

 

[OMC]

"A version of Christianity"? Really, it is simply one version?

1. If you include Catholics as much as 67% of Americans identify as Christian.

That is 240 million people in the US who think they are Christians.

2. 21% of Americans say they attend church every week. However, based on actual attendance it is 5% of Americans.

That is about 18 million people who think they are Christian actually attend church every week even though the Bible is very clear "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together". So out of 240 million 222 million are deceiving themselves.

3. How many of those attending every week feel that is sufficient? Go, listen to the sermon, that is all you need to do? I don't know the answer. I do know that we have 200 who come each week to the meeting and I also know that once a month our church helps out at a soup kitchen and only 2 of those 200 show up. But let's assume the number is ten times that and there are 20 out of the 200 who are actively serving the Lord in ministry and getting into the word of God and prayer daily.

That is 1.8 million out of 240 million who identify as Christian. That is less than 1% of those who identify as Christian. So 99% is "a version of Christianity"?

When I said “a version of Christianity,” I wasn’t minimizing the problem — I was distinguishing between what people claim and what Scripture defines.

 

[ZNP]

When I said “a version of Christianity,” I wasn’t minimizing the problem — I was distinguishing between what people claim and what Scripture defines.

I studied under Watchman Nee's ministry so I know there are ministries that do not teach this "version of Christianity", but that group was even more of a tiny minority. Perhaps 10-20,000 in all of the US.

What I find much more common is individuals in various congregations who are not simply nominal Christians or spectators, but active participants. But even if you can find 2.4 million like this, what is very easy to find is 240 million who claim "once saved always saved" or "because they are catholic they are saved" or "their family has been Christian for as long as they can remember". It is so universally common that I have to think 99% of denominations and pastors teach it.

They equate justification with salvation and spend next to nothing on sanctification and basically assume glorification is some miraculous process that no one understands even though Philippians explains it in great detail.

 

[Lanolin]

Well glad we have all you christian brothers to put us straight, we don't want to lose anybody on CC right?

 

[SonJudgment]

Given that creed is external to the Cannon itself, it matters not at all that I or anyone else places any faith in it in addition to the canonized scriptures. The closes thing the Bible itself comes to including external writings is the Book of Hebrews, which wasn't written by any of the apostles, but rather by those who lived with the apostles and wrote down what the twelve taught them and that they heard them teach and preach to Israel. That alone is the only means for entry that book was canonized.

MM

That's incorrect. The Creed is not external to the Canon itself because the Creed is a statement of faith in the Canon itself. This is why the Creed quickly separates the true believers from the false very quickly. That's why you can't really deny the Creed without denying the Bible.

The Letter to the Hebrews was written by the apostle Paul which is why it's canon. You're relying on what other people whom are not believers say about the Bible rather than the Bible itself.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

(KJV Matthew 7:17-20) "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

 

[Musicmaster]

(KJV Matthew 7:17-20) "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Yes, that was indeed true to us Israelites to whom that was written, especially given that our entire nation was historically referred to as an olive tree. Jesus spoke of Israel, as the tree not bearing fruit, was going to be cut down in Luke 13, which did happen and is still in effect today.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

We are told to "believe and be baptized". To be baptized in water is the first time a believer will obey the word of God. It is your first act of obedience and it signifies being immersed into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We? We who? That command was spoken ONLY to Israel. I'm Israeli and I have no need to be water baptized under the dispensation of grace.

Nowhere in the context of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 did Paul ever say anything about the requirement for water baptism for salvation nor obedience. The last command for water baptism was issued by Peter ONLY to his audience, which was made up entirely of Israelites.

Sanctification is seen in how wood is petrified. Wood is made of carbon, just like our natural man, our flesh. It will decay. But if the wood is immersed into a water solution that is saturated with jasper the molecules of wood will be replaced molecule by molecule with the jasper.

Blessedly, scripture doesn't draw that line of comparison. That's purely made up by you or someone else. That injection will not ever sway any believer who knows and trusts the scriptures.

So then there are two parts to sanctification. The first is your choice to be immersed in water saturated with Jasper and the second is the process of replacing the wood molecule by molecule with the jasper. You control where you are immersed, God will do the rest if you immerse yourself in Him.

When one seeks out the topic of sanctification, he will search in vain to find this creation of yours or your pastor's or whomever made this up, nowhere will it be found in scripture.

Jasper is composed of 3 atoms, one Silicon, and two Oxygen. It is 3 atoms but one molecule. The first oxygen depicts God the father as the source of life. The silicon depicts the Son of God. If we were not composed of carbon we would be composed of Silicon. Carbon is far less abundant than Silicon. Then the final Oxygen depicts the Holy Spirit, the pneuma, the breath of God. So to be immersed into the word of God, into prayer, into fellowship, into meeting with others, into service, into worship, and into witnessing.

Someone has some imagination, but no thanks. It makes for a good novel, but scripture is far richer and more precise than all the religious concoctions that fly around here in the West.

Yes, the purpose of God's calling is that we would all be glorified and the end result is "the redemption of our body". That is all true.

Yes, that is predestination and election in a nutshell, contrary to the extremisms within Calvinism.

The point is that when you believed in the Lord your body was not glorified and you did not receive the redemption of your body. So it is not "the free gift of God". The free gift of God is justification. You do not need to do anything to be justified other than repent of your sins and receive the work that Jesus did on the cross.

Nope. The free gift of God is salvation. Justification is a power that begins after salvation because it is a process, not an event such as salvation. Our future redemption of our bodies, yes, will take place at the rapture as the body of Christ. The works-based salvationists may find themselves left behind for having believed in "another gospel," given that Paul called that a matter of bewitchment.

If you include Catholics as much as 67% of Americans identify as Christian, that is 240 million people.

Meaningless.

21% of Americans say they attend church every week.

Meaningless.

However, based on actual attendance it is 5% of Americans. That is about 18 million.

Attending or not attending, that in itself is meaningless for it adds nothing to most believers given the milk-toast-n-wet-noodle nature of modern preaching. The stasis mode of those congregations in their tendency to remain in a perpetual stated of sheepdom, that's what spiritual giants leave behind them in order to become more effective in ministering to others into whatever direction the Lord leads. Programmatic religion is mostly empty rhetoric given that most professing believers out there have not one clue what true worship really is nor what it looks like.

Jesus said "why do you say you love me if you don't do the things I tell you to do?"

Yes, and we of Israel failed to heed that from our Messiah, and so we as THE nation of priests were cut down like a tree, thus the reason salvation came unto the Gentiles apart from them having to join with us for salvation.

Now the Bible is crystal clear that there are different groups or categories of Christians. The Lord doesn't use the term "salvation" in describing them, so I don't either.

You must read from a very liberalized, English transliteration...

You have those who bury their talent, you have foolish virgins, you have those that are faithful servants, you have those that the Lord divorces, and their are many warnings given to those who don't watch, or to those who are not obedient to the word.

I am not interested in a debate over "salvation". If you want to think that "justification" is "salvation" go for it. Clearly you haven't read the bible. In fact I avoid the waste of time Bible discussions on this forum because they are to my limited observation a big waste of time.

I never said sanctification and salvation are one and the same. You assumed that into whatever it is that I said from which you appear to have derived your false dichotomy. Bringing to bear proper reading comprehension skills will make that quite clear, unless I fat-fingered something that produced some strange grammar pointing in the direction I never intended.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

That's incorrect. The Creed is not external to the Canon itself because the Creed is a statement of faith in the Canon itself. This is why the Creed quickly separates the true believers from the false very quickly. That's why you can't really deny the Creed without denying the Bible.

The Letter to the Hebrews was written by the apostle Paul which is why it's canon. You're relying on what other people whom are not believers say about the Bible rather than the Bible itself.

Again you do err. That creed applies Greek-rooted terms not found within the Bible as descriptors for key doctrinal foundations. If you want to place your faith in that creed as representative of inspired scripture, then go for it. I for one will stick to what I know was and is inspired by the Lord.

MM

 

[ZNP]

We? We who? That command was spoken ONLY to Israel. I'm Israeli and I have no need to be water baptized under the dispensation of grace.

Nowhere in the context of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 did Paul ever say anything about the requirement for water baptism for salvation nor obedience. The last command for water baptism was issued by Peter ONLY to his audience, which was made up entirely of Israelites.



Blessedly, scripture doesn't draw that line of comparison. That's purely made up by you or someone else. That injection will not ever sway any believer who knows and trusts the scriptures.



When one seeks out the topic of sanctification, he will search in vain to find this creation of yours or your pastor's or whomever made this up, nowhere will it be found in scripture.



Someone has some imagination, but no thanks. It makes for a good novel, but scripture is far richer and more precise than all the religious concoctions that fly around here in the West.



Yes, that is predestination and election in a nutshell, contrary to the extremisms within Calvinism.



Nope. The free gift of God is salvation. Justification is a power that begins after salvation because it is a process, not an event such as salvation. Our future redemption of our bodies, yes, will take place at the rapture as the body of Christ. The works-based salvationists may find themselves left behind for having believed in "another gospel," given that Paul called that a matter of bewitchment.



Meaningless.



Meaningless.



Attending or not attending, that in itself is meaningless for it adds nothing to most believers given the milk-toast-n-wet-noodle nature of modern preaching. The stasis mode of those congregations in their tendency to remain in a perpetual stated of sheepdom, that's what spiritual giants leave behind them in order to become more effective in ministering to others into whatever direction the Lord leads. Programmatic religion is mostly empty rhetoric given that most professing believers out there have not one clue what true worship really is nor what it looks like.



Yes, and we of Israel failed to heed that from our Messiah, and so we as THE nation of priests were cut down like a tree, thus the reason salvation came unto the Gentiles apart from them having to join with us for salvation.



You must read from a very liberalized, English transliteration...



I never said sanctification and salvation are one and the same. You assumed that into whatever it is that I said from which you appear to have derived your false dichotomy. Bringing to bear proper reading comprehension skills will make that quite clear, unless I fat-fingered something that produced some strange grammar pointing in the direction I never intended.

MM

Got it, you don't believe the entire Bible is good for instruction to all believers.
Jasper as one of the precious stones in the New Jerusalem is not "made up", that is in the word of God, it is an analogy given to us like many of the parables the Lord gave. Once you know that Jasper is a precious stone then you can take a look at the significance of that. Jesus Christ is the body of all the shadows.

The word sanctification means to be separated unto. It also refers to a process by which something is sanctified, made holy. Baptism separates us unto the Lord. Petrified wood is baptized, immersed into water which is H2O. Two hydrogen and one Oxygen atoms. That is a triune molecule.

The fact that you don't know that Jesus Christ is the body of the shadows indicates you have not studied the book of Colossians.

And there we have the reason for your refusal to receive this word, you refuse to assemble yourself together with other believers. The church is not a "seminary". It is likened to a hospital (Good Samaritan), it is likened to a family (house of God). Yes, you have sick in attendance and you have the immature. It is our job to care for those who are weaker, not despise them. That is what it means to be a priest unto God.