Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Churchgoer]

"We are currently in the time of Ezekiel's dry bones for Israel."

No doubt whatsoever that this is certainly the present stage of God eschatological plan.

I am frankly shocked that anyone could think that these staggering geopolitical phenomenon could be some kind of random irrelevant glitch.

Actually nothing happening is the world is random, accidentally.
All under God's divine plan.

 

[OMC]

CV5,
After reviewing our most sporty exchange I noticed something I must confess and apologize for.
In one of my responses I said "It sounds..... desperate."
This was not scripture but frustration and I was in error. I'm sorry. Its not you I wrestle with, its the system you defend.
As hard as I try to not make it personal, I am still human. And yes I do make mistakes, And I recognize this one.

 

[Beekeeper]

According to Scripture, your statement that it is “irrefutable eschatological fact” that another believer will enter the tribulation is itself the category error, because Revelation 3:10 speaks of Christ keeping His faithful ones from the hour—not giving believers authority to pronounce who will or will not face judgment—and Scripture forbids using future wrath as a weapon against a brother (Romans 14:4), commands us not to “render evil for evil” (1 Thessalonians 5:15), and teaches that final separation belongs to Christ’s judgment alone, not to believers declaring outcomes over one another.

I thought I was the one that first said something like that.
In any case, for my part I still stand by what I said.

 

[Lovette]

Both of these passages refer to the POST-RAPTURE environment, and these are TRIBULATION SAINT BELIEVERS (both Jew and gentile) who COME TO BELIEF as a result of the witnesses that God prepares and sends forth during this 70th week of Daniel tribulation phase.

Then you're the biblical illiterate one, I've heard this lame explanation a million times. In those days the whole world would be deceived by the devil, today's high grade AI contents are already indistinguishable from authentic materials by real people, even the elect may be deceived, and you're preaching the opposite, that unbelivers will come to belief? When the Holy Spirit, supposedly the Restrainer, is removed?

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:9)

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat. 24:24)

Not by me. So speak for yourself.

Oh and BTW, I find it amazing (not really) that those who deny the impeccable certainty of latter day redemption of the Nation Israel are commonly the same ones who deny the impeccable certainty of the pre-trib harpazo.

A grim diagnosis to be sure....

That all depends on how you identify the "earth dwellers" in Revelation. They were the ones who are guaranteed to be explicitly brainwashed by the Beast.

 

[cv5]

Then you're the biblical illiterate one, I've heard this lame explanation a million times. In those days the whole world would be deceived by the devil, today's high grade AI contents are already indistinguishable from authentic materials by real people, even the elect may be deceived, and you're preaching the opposite, that unbelivers will come to belief? When the Holy Spirit, supposedly the Restrainer, is removed?

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:9)

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat. 24:24)

That all depends on how you identify the "earth dwellers" in Revelation. They were the ones who are guaranteed to be explicitly brainwashed by the Beast.

"I've heard this lame explanation a million time"

Tragically, for some, no amount of evidence is sufficient to break thru such thick prejudicial calluses.

Fortunately, my heart has always been pretty pliable to receive Biblical truth. Honestly I feel pretty blessed about that.

Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

[Lovette]

"I've heard this lame explanation a million time"

Tragically, for some, no amount of evidence is sufficient to break thru such thick prejudicial calluses.

Fortunately, my heart has always been pretty pliable to receive Biblical truth. Honestly I feel pretty blessed about that.

Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The biblical truth is the polar opposite to your "tribulation saints" narrative, as the Antichrist will be given power to deceive the whole world; not only is there no new believers, the existing church would depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons ... (1 Tim. 4:1)

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:9)

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Matt. 24:24)

... many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. (Matt. 24:11-12)

 

[Komentaja]

Let the record show that @OMC
has denied the Biblically impeccable pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I believed in the pre-trib rapture when I got saved, it played a big part in me getting saved. Then I left that teaching for a while and have since returned to my first love so to speak.

 

[Komentaja]

"We are currently in the time of Ezekiel's dry bones for Israel."

No doubt whatsoever that this is certainly the present stage of God eschatological plan.

I am frankly shocked that anyone could think that these staggering geopolitical phenomenon could be some kind of random irrelevant glitch.

I want to ask you about Luke 21:24. It has been in my thoughts as of late. Has the time of the gentiles already ended or not? You could argue yes because Jews are back in the land, or you could argue no because they don't control the temple mount yet, Jordan does.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I disagree with the claim that the church is “long gone” in Revelation 5, as I believe those around the throne are the heavenly host praising the Lamb before any seal is opened, not a raptured church taken from the earth. I also reject the accusation of willful denial, since the pre‑trib framework is being applied to the text rather than derived from what John actually wrote.”

brother have you heard of “ apacalypse “” to reveal “

revelation is actually called “ the apacalypse “ revelation isn’t a stand alone book or vision the imagery is coming from what the prophets already established . Here’s an example


John never sees this in his vision but he speaks of the imagery found in the prophets beforehand a

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John doesn’t see 2 olive trees he’s referencing this prophecy

“and said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:2-3, 11, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Johns telling the audience “ these are the two olive trees that Zachariah saw “ the idea is as we learn those old prophecies we later understand the imagery found in revelation “ apacalypse “ it reveals things through that process of revealing what’s already there here’s another example

“Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:2-7‬ ‭

If you look we’ve seen four beasts looking as a lion bear and Leopard with seven heads and ten horns rising up from the sea . Later John sees …

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John was seeing the end of the vision after five of the seven heads had fallen 6 was ruling in johns day and 7 was about to rise up whereas Daniel saw the beginning of the events with nebucadnezzar the first king and golden head of daniels statue . See johns time stamp is here

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10-12‬ ‭

This is after Babylon ruled then media Persia then Greece which was divided into four and later became the Roman Empire which ruled in johns time near the end of that segment of the apocalypse

Johns nearing the seventh king but Daniel begins writing in the time of the first king


Apacalypse works by this structure it’s not standing alone it’s revealing things that were mysterious and hidden beforhand in the prophets


just a thought to consider and test out

 

[cv5]

The biblical truth is the polar opposite to your "tribulation saints" narrative, as the Antichrist will be given power to deceive the whole world; not only is there no new believers, the existing church would depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons ... (1 Tim. 4:1)

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:9)

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Matt. 24:24)

... many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. (Matt. 24:11-12)

Welp. That mess if proof positive that you don't know what you are talking about.
The content is next level Biblical illiteracy really.

 

[cv5]

The biblical truth is the polar opposite to your "tribulation saints" narrative, as the Antichrist will be given power to deceive the whole world; not only is there no new believers, the existing church would depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons ... (1 Tim. 4:1)

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:9)

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Matt. 24:24)

... many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. (Matt. 24:11-12)

“depart from the faith” does NOT mean that a genuinely regenerated believer becomes spiritually unborn and loses salvation.
it can describe either a professing Christian who was never genuinely regenerate, or—a genuine believer who falls into serious doctrinal apostasy

The key distinction is between salvation and doctrinal faithfulness.

In the phrase:

“some will depart from the faith”

the Greek is ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως (apostēsontai tines tēs pisteōs), literally, “some will depart/apostatize from the faith.” Here ἡ πίστις — “the faith” is naturally objective: the body of Christian doctrine, rather than the inward saving faith by which a person was justified. This objective use of “the faith” occurs repeatedly in the Pastoral Epistles; compare 1 Timothy 1:19; 3:9; 5:8; 6:10, 21.

Thus the prophecy concerns apostasy from sound doctrine.

 

[Lovette]

“depart from the faith” does NOT mean that a genuinely regenerated believer becomes spiritually unborn and loses salvation.
it can describe either a professing Christian who was never genuinely regenerate, or—a genuine believer who falls into serious doctrinal apostasy

The key distinction is between salvation and doctrinal faithfulness.

In the phrase:


the Greek is ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως (apostēsontai tines tēs pisteōs), literally, “some will depart/apostatize from the faith.” Here ἡ πίστις — “the faith” is naturally objective: the body of Christian doctrine, rather than the inward saving faith by which a person was justified. This objective use of “the faith” occurs repeatedly in the Pastoral Epistles; compare 1 Timothy 1:19; 3:9; 5:8; 6:10, 21.

Thus the prophecy concerns apostasy from sound doctrine.

So they're "left behind" just because they'd rejected your "sound doctrine" of sudden teleportation into heaven?

 

[cv5]

So they're "left behind" just because they'd rejected your "sound doctrine" of sudden teleportation into heaven?

You might benefit from a community college course in reading comprehension—and perhaps an introductory class in logic and rhetoric.

Given your track record in this exchange, the baseline remediation would be a major upgrade.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Zechariah 14:5 does not teach that Abraham returns to earth for a millennial battle; it teaches that the Lord comes with “all His holy ones,” which the NT consistently interprets as angels, not resurrected saints (cf. Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7).
Likewise, Jesus’ promise that the apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel is not tied to a temporary millennial phase — it is tied to the renewal of all things (Matthew 19:28), the same new‑creation context Hebrews 11 places Abraham’s inheritance in.
The argument that “there will be no need for judges in the permanent kingdom” is a system‑driven assumption, not a textual statement.
Revelation 20’s Great White Throne does not eliminate ongoing governance in the new creation; it concludes judgment on the wicked. Nothing in Scripture requires Abraham to receive the land twice — once in a temporary millennium and again in eternity.
Hebrews explicitly says he receives it in resurrection, in the “better country,” in the “city God prepared.”
The millennial‑plus‑eternal model is imaginative, but it is not demanded by the text; the inspired interpretation in Hebrews remains the controlling one.

First of all, believers are included in "ALL His holy ones". The Bible says that all believers are blessed and Holy in:

• 1 Corinthians 1:2: Paul addresses his letter "to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people."
• Romans 1:7: The apostle writes to "all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people."
• Ephesians 1:1: Paul addresses the letter to "the holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus."
• Philippians 1:1: The greeting is to "all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi."
• Colossians 1:2: The letter is sent to "God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ."

Once again, there is absolutely no scripture describing the need for "judging" in the permanent kingdom of heaven, but there is in the earthly Millennial Kingdom where people will still be living, dying, and repopulating the earth like the book of Isaiah tells. People will be living much longer and anyone who dies before the age of 100 will be considered cursed.

So, yes, Abraham and every saint who has passed on before or after him will be returning like the Bible shows us in Zechariah 14:5.

 

[OMC]

So, yes, Abraham and every saint who has passed on before or after him will be returning like the Bible shows us in Zechariah 14:5.

My friend, no — Zechariah 14:5 does not teach that Abraham and all departed saints return to earth with Christ. That idea sounds neat and dramatic, but it is not what the text says, and the New Testament gives us the inspired interpretation so we don’t have to guess.
Zechariah 14:5 says, “the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee,”
but the New Testament repeatedly identifies those “saints” as angels, not resurrected humans.
Jesus Himself says He returns “with all the holy angels” (Matthew 25:31).
Paul says He is “revealed from heaven with His mighty angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:7).
Jude quotes the same Old Testament imagery and applies it to angels (Jude 14–15).
Hebrews 11 explicitly teaches that Abraham and the saints receive their inheritance in resurrection, in the better country, the heavenly city, not in a temporary earthly battle.
Nothing in Scripture ever places Abraham or departed believers in a military return to earth before the final resurrection.
The “saints” of Zechariah 14:5 are the same “holy ones” of Matthew 25:31 — angels, not resurrected humans — and the New Testament gives us the inspired interpretation that controls the imagery.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Yes I understand you have a different opinion but Davids promise is about the new covenant Jesus ( son of David ) is the fountain that forgives and cleanses sin that was given to Israel ……Israel’s messiah promised for ages the son of Abraham and son of david and the only source of sins cleansing.

It’s alright that you have a different thought though

You're right about Jesus being the fountain that's opens up in Israel for forgiveness and the cleansing of sin, but the Hebrews/Israelites are not grafted back into the Olive Tree until after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in like Paul tells us in Romans 11:25. All of Romans 11 will give you a better understanding how when God/Jesus is done with the Gentiles, He'll return his focus back to the Jews in order to save a remnant of them and graft them back into the original Olive Tree. The reason we know this hasn't happened yet is because of Zechariah 13:6. Jesus will have already returned and showing them the wounds in His hands as proof of who He is in that same chapter.

 

[Revelation1v8]

My friend, no — Zechariah 14:5 does not teach that Abraham and all departed saints return to earth with Christ. That idea sounds neat and dramatic, but it is not what the text says, and the New Testament gives us the inspired interpretation so we don’t have to guess.
Zechariah 14:5 says, “the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee,”
but the New Testament repeatedly identifies those “saints” as angels, not resurrected humans.
Jesus Himself says He returns “with all the holy angels” (Matthew 25:31).
Paul says He is “revealed from heaven with His mighty angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:7).
Jude quotes the same Old Testament imagery and applies it to angels (Jude 14–15).
Hebrews 11 explicitly teaches that Abraham and the saints receive their inheritance in resurrection, in the better country, the heavenly city, not in a temporary earthly battle.
Nothing in Scripture ever places Abraham or departed believers in a military return to earth before the final resurrection.
The “saints” of Zechariah 14:5 are the same “holy ones” of Matthew 25:31 — angels, not resurrected humans — and the New Testament gives us the inspired interpretation that controls the imagery.

I've already shown you who the "holy ones" are from the New Testament (believers) and now I'll show you who the "saints" are according to the New Testament (also believers)...

In the New Testament, the term "saints" (Greek: hagios) is used as a direct address to living Christian congregations, identifying every believer in Jesus Christ as set apart and holy. Paul explicitly greets entire churches as saints in Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1, and Colossians 1:15, demonstrating that the title applies to all faithful followers rather than a select group of deceased heroes.

Christians will return with Jesus at His second coming because scripture teaches that He comes with His saints after first coming for them at the Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and Jude 1:14 prophesy that Jesus will return with "all his saints" or "thousands upon thousands of his holy ones" to execute judgment and establish His kingdom. This return is contingent on the prior event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17, where the dead in Christ are resurrected and living believers are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air, thereby joining Him to return together.

 

[OMC]

I've already shown you who the "holy ones" are from the New Testament (believers) and now I'll show you who the "saints" are according to the New Testament (also believers)...

In the New Testament, the term "saints" (Greek: hagios) is used as a direct address to living Christian congregations, identifying every believer in Jesus Christ as set apart and holy. Paul explicitly greets entire churches as saints in Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1, and Colossians 1:15, demonstrating that the title applies to all faithful followers rather than a select group of deceased heroes.

Christians will return with Jesus at His second coming because scripture teaches that He comes with His saints after first coming for them at the Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and Jude 1:14 prophesy that Jesus will return with "all his saints" or "thousands upon thousands of his holy ones" to execute judgment and establish His kingdom. This return is contingent on the prior event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17, where the dead in Christ are resurrected and living believers are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air, thereby joining Him to return together

What you just wrote is a classic conflation of two different biblical categories: saints (believers) and holy ones (angels).
The New Testament uses hagios for believers, yes — but it also uses hagios for angels, and the context determines which group is meant.
You’re treating every use of “saints/holy ones” as believers, but the inspired writers themselves do not.

 

[Revelation1v8]

What you just wrote is a classic conflation of two different biblical categories: saints (believers) and holy ones (angels).
The New Testament uses hagios for believers, yes — but it also uses hagios for angels, and the context determines which group is meant.
You’re treating every use of “saints/holy ones” as believers, but the inspired writers themselves do not.

Both "saints" and "holy ones" INCLUDES BELIEVERS as they TOO are written in the Bible as such. So, it's NOT just the angels. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

 

[OMC]

Both "saints" and "holy ones" INCLUDES BELIEVERS as they TOO are written in the Bible as such. So, it's NOT just the angels. That's the point I'm trying to make here

You’re right that believers are called saints.
You’re right that believers are called holy ones.
You’re right that hagios includes Christians. I’m not disputing that.
What I’m saying — and what the New Testament itself forces me to say — is that the group that accompanies Christ at His visible return is not determined by the dictionary meaning of hagios, but by the inspired context of each passage.
And in every passage describing the moment of His descent in glory, the “holy ones” are angels, not resurrected believers.