Thoughts on Hebrews 6:4-8 - Falling Away

[roadto37]

Hebrews 6:4-8 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Analogy
I came up with a little analogy that I think somewhat works (not perfectly):

Say someone, let's name him John, is driving a rented car and he goes to a car dealership just to see what there is. He finds a really nice car, so he take it out for a test drive and everything is perfect about it. After he returns, the sales rep tells him that he can have the car for free, he just has to accept it, no strings attached. There is nothing wrong with the car, but instead of accepting it, John decides that he doesn't want to deal with maintaining the car, and will instead continue with the rental because it's less work

He leaves, and the next day the dealership calls to tell him that the car is still available if he wants it, but he still rejects it. The dealership is persistent, but the calls become less frequent, and at some point John blocks the number. Over time the cost of the rental car is mounting, but he is adamant in rejecting the free car because it's too much work to maintain. Eventually he is left without a car and falls into ruin

Thoughts
I've heard it said that this passage, along with blaspheming the Holy Spirit, are both talking about people who understand The Gospel and have seen how good God is, and yet choose to reject God anyway and are continually unrepentant in coming back. Someone may turn away for a time, but if they are repentant, then this passage is not talking about them

It's like they "test drive" Christianity, and see everything good about it, and yet still choose to reject it. Even though people come to them and explain it in a better or different way they still think sin is better than "maintaining" the "easy yoke" of Christianity (Matthew 11:30)

They are continually offered the free gift, but have a hard heart and "block" any mention of it. Eventually God gives them over to the sin and it becomes impossible for them to return because they have continually been unrepentant. The gift is still offered, but they are set in their ways so much that to accept it at that point would be out of the question. They have produced thorns and thistles in their heart and don't want the good fruit that's offered

In the story of the 10 plagues, it says first that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, then towards the end God hardened his heart. Pharaoh was continually unrepentant and eventually God gave him over to the sin that he chose. He saw the power of God clearly seen, and yet was persistent in his rejection. So it became impossible for him to come back since he knows that his way is correct and nothing will change his mind.

However, as an encouragement, I don't believe this is talking about anyone that may wander away for a time but is repentant and genuinely wants God. Someone may have hard times and blame God, or maybe become indifferent to him for a time. We are all sinful but God is merciful and if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse our unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)

Remain faithful to the Lord because he is good

 

[timf]

The national gospel of the kingdom for Israel was different that the individual gospel of grace given to Paul for the gentiles. There were similarities such as faith in Jesus as Messiah for those of Israel and faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus in payment for sins for gentiles.

There were differences as well. Israel was still to keep the law whereas gentiles were not. Gentiles would receive eternal life upon having faith. Those of Israel would have to persevere to the end to look forward to the resurrection of the righteous to eternal life. It is this "salvation" that could be "lost" and regained for Israel.

 

[GWH]

Analogy
I came up with a little analogy that I think somewhat works (not perfectly):

Say someone, let's name him John, is driving a rented car and he goes to a car dealership just to see what there is. He finds a really nice car, so he take it out for a test drive and everything is perfect about it. After he returns, the sales rep tells him that he can have the car for free, he just has to accept it, no strings attached. There is nothing wrong with the car, but instead of accepting it, John decides that he doesn't want to deal with maintaining the car, and will instead continue with the rental because it's less work

He leaves, and the next day the dealership calls to tell him that the car is still available if he wants it, but he still rejects it. The dealership is persistent, but the calls become less frequent, and at some point John blocks the number. Over time the cost of the rental car is mounting, but he is adamant in rejecting the free car because it's too much work to maintain. Eventually he is left without a car and falls into ruin

Thoughts
I've heard it said that this passage, along with blaspheming the Holy Spirit, are both talking about people who understand The Gospel and have seen how good God is, and yet choose to reject God anyway and are continually unrepentant in coming back. Someone may turn away for a time, but if they are repentant, then this passage is not talking about them

It's like they "test drive" Christianity, and see everything good about it, and yet still choose to reject it. Even though people come to them and explain it in a better or different way they still think sin is better than "maintaining" the "easy yoke" of Christianity (Matthew 11:30)

They are continually offered the free gift, but have a hard heart and "block" any mention of it. Eventually God gives them over to the sin and it becomes impossible for them to return because they have continually been unrepentant. The gift is still offered, but they are set in their ways so much that to accept it at that point would be out of the question. They have produced thorns and thistles in their heart and don't want the good fruit that's offered

In the story of the 10 plagues, it says first that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, then towards the end God hardened his heart. Pharaoh was continually unrepentant and eventually God gave him over to the sin that he chose. He saw the power of God clearly seen, and yet was persistent in his rejection. So it became impossible for him to come back since he knows that his way is correct and nothing will change his mind.

However, as an encouragement, I don't believe this is talking about anyone that may wander away for a time but is repentant and genuinely wants God. Someone may have hard times and blame God, or maybe become indifferent to him for a time. We are all sinful but God is merciful and if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse our unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)

Remain faithful to the Lord because he is good

Your post noted two problematic parts of Scripture:

1. Describing (intentionally) repudiating saving faith as though it were (accidentally) falling away.
2. Describing heart hardening as caused by the soul and by God.

I agree with your understanding: apostasy is intentional and caused by the soul's volition.

 

[Burn1986]

I’m pretty sure this was talking about Orthodox Jews (Pharisees for example) at the time, who like Paul, started follow Jesus, only to fall back and became Pharisees again (so to speak).

 

[GWH]

I’m pretty sure this was talking about Orthodox Jews (Pharisees for example) at the time, who like Paul, started follow Jesus, only to fall back and became Pharisees again (so to speak).

No one but a Christian would have shared in the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9),
so amend your "pretty certainty" to align with Scripture, including Heb. 10:19-39,
as I did having been raised as a Baptist to believe OSAS.
Let truth trump tradition (2Thes. 2:10).

 

[tablet123]

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allows the Spirit to lead them then they can abstain from sin.

So there is no excuse and it is required of us.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people deny the Spirit leading them and do not come to that truth.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Those that accepted the truth if they go back to sinning and holding on to sin then they lost salvation.

But this is correctable.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is different for it is a falling away which is not correctable.

If they depart from the truth and stop believing Jesus is Lord and Savior, but changed their minds to accept Jesus then God will not allow them to be saved again.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

An example is this that some shall depart from the faith, the truth, and give heed to a false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult and Jesus is not Lord and Saviour.

They will come out at the latter times which is now which if you look in the world the only thing that fits this is the new age christianity.

Those that departed from the faith and followed them cannot be saved again.

But a new ager that never accepted the truth but then accepts the truth can be saved.

But if they go back to the new age they cannot be saved again.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Analogy
I came up with a little analogy that I think somewhat works (not perfectly):

Say someone, let's name him John, is driving a rented car and he goes to a car dealership just to see what there is. He finds a really nice car, so he take it out for a test drive and everything is perfect about it. After he returns, the sales rep tells him that he can have the car for free, he just has to accept it, no strings attached. There is nothing wrong with the car, but instead of accepting it, John decides that he doesn't want to deal with maintaining the car, and will instead continue with the rental because it's less work

He leaves, and the next day the dealership calls to tell him that the car is still available if he wants it, but he still rejects it. The dealership is persistent, but the calls become less frequent, and at some point John blocks the number. Over time the cost of the rental car is mounting, but he is adamant in rejecting the free car because it's too much work to maintain. Eventually he is left without a car and falls into ruin

Thoughts
I've heard it said that this passage, along with blaspheming the Holy Spirit, are both talking about people who understand The Gospel and have seen how good God is, and yet choose to reject God anyway and are continually unrepentant in coming back. Someone may turn away for a time, but if they are repentant, then this passage is not talking about them

It's like they "test drive" Christianity, and see everything good about it, and yet still choose to reject it. Even though people come to them and explain it in a better or different way they still think sin is better than "maintaining" the "easy yoke" of Christianity (Matthew 11:30)

They are continually offered the free gift, but have a hard heart and "block" any mention of it. Eventually God gives them over to the sin and it becomes impossible for them to return because they have continually been unrepentant. The gift is still offered, but they are set in their ways so much that to accept it at that point would be out of the question. They have produced thorns and thistles in their heart and don't want the good fruit that's offered

In the story of the 10 plagues, it says first that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, then towards the end God hardened his heart. Pharaoh was continually unrepentant and eventually God gave him over to the sin that he chose. He saw the power of God clearly seen, and yet was persistent in his rejection. So it became impossible for him to come back since he knows that his way is correct and nothing will change his mind.

However, as an encouragement, I don't believe this is talking about anyone that may wander away for a time but is repentant and genuinely wants God. Someone may have hard times and blame God, or maybe become indifferent to him for a time. We are all sinful but God is merciful and if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse our unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)

Remain faithful to the Lord because he is good

also if we read more of what’s being said there in the letter

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:1-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That above sounds a lot like something Jesus said about unfruitful branches in him .

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think willful sin is when we have no desire to repent . Rather than someone who’s struggling with sin sort of against thier inner Will and still stumbles . I think it’s when our Will is set to things we know are sin but rather than repentance we justify those things and make ways to continue knowingly in things that are sin

 

[Revelation1v8]

Your post noted two problematic parts of Scripture:

1. Describing (intentionally) repudiating saving faith as though it were (accidentally) falling away.
2. Describing heart hardening as caused by the soul and by God.

I agree with your understanding: apostasy is intentional and caused by the soul's volition.

I'm not sure I understand what you consider to be "problematic". Romans 11:25 and 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 show that God uses veils, blindness, and hardening. Personally, I think it's also why many Christians don't understand what the Bible says about the earthly Millennial Kingdom that Jesus sets up upon His return and the restoration of Israel. The Holy Spirit doesn't reveal truth to everyone at once or at the same time. I believe it needs to be this way in order for God's plans for the world, as written, to come to fruition.

 

[Delvianna]

also if we read more of what’s being said there in the letter

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:1-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That above sounds a lot like something Jesus said about unfruitful branches in him .

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think willful sin is when we have no desire to repent . Rather than someone who’s struggling with sin sort of against thier inner Will and still stumbles . I think it’s when our Will is set to things we know are sin but rather than repentance we justify those things and make ways to continue knowingly in things that are sin

Agreed. And notice what comes first before God prunes the branch? It withers. That's not like sinning a few times but you're struggling, that's a clear rejection of God. Obedience produces fruit. It's not some magical thing that you profess belief in Jesus and suddenly you're more loving, kind, joyful, peaceful or patient. Fruit is grown, it doesn't just suddenly appear. If your spirituality withers, it's not just a rejection of belief, you can clearly still believe Christ is Lord (Matthew 7), but God considers belief through actions (Matthew 25:37-40, James 2:24, Luke 6:46).

So a rejection of his commands, is a rejection of Him.

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. - John 14:23-24

Notice the condition, keep his word BEFORE they "make a home" which is indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So @roadto37, I agree with you and I like your analogy. Because those who are sealed until the day of redemption are the ones who persist, continue, do not reject and follow what Christ says (Holy Spirit dwells). Those who either reject Christ through disobedience, or through belief, are eventually pruned off (No Holy Spirit dwelling, they were most likely being tested during this time. And as you put, "Test driving").

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Agreed. And notice what comes first before God prunes the branch? It withers. That's not like sinning a few times but you're struggling, that's a clear rejection of God. Obedience produces fruit. It's not some magical thing that you profess belief in Jesus and suddenly you're more loving, kind, joyful, peaceful or patient. Fruit is grown, it doesn't just suddenly appear. If your spirituality withers, it's not just a rejection of belief, you can clearly still believe Christ is Lord (Matthew 7), but God considers belief through actions (Matthew 25:37-40, James 2:24, Luke 6:46).

So a rejection of his commands, is a rejection of Him.

Notice the condition, keep his word BEFORE they "make a home" which is indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So @roadto37, I agree with you and I like your analogy. Because those who are sealed until the day of redemption are the ones who persist, continue, do not reject and follow what Christ says (Holy Spirit dwells). Those who either reject Christ through disobedience, or through belief, are eventually pruned off (No Holy Spirit dwelling, they were most likely being tested during this time. And as you put, "Test driving").

Well said it’s definately a lifelong experience something about the lord is he really does love us and doesn’t just cast us aside because we make mistakes it’s the willfulness that persists and leads us astray willfulness is really the root of why people reject Christs authority and command . We want to do our own thing make our own determinations of what’s good and evil make our own conditions for his kingdom ect all that’s needed is to come close and hear what he’s actually saying and believe it that will lead believers home

 

[Burn1986]

No one but a Christian would have shared in the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9),
so amend your "pretty certainty" to align with Scripture, including Heb. 10:19-39,
as I did having been raised as a Baptist to believe OSAS.
Let truth trump tradition (2Thes. 2:10).

If this was for us, we’d all be in this. Ease up bro, there’s hope for us

 

[Churchgoer]

The national gospel of the kingdom for Israel was different that the individual gospel of grace given to Paul for the gentiles. There were similarities such as faith in Jesus as Messiah for those of Israel and faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus in payment for sins for gentiles.

There were differences as well. Israel was still to keep the law whereas gentiles were not. Gentiles would receive eternal life upon having faith. Those of Israel would have to persevere to the end to look forward to the resurrection of the righteous to eternal life. It is this "salvation" that could be "lost" and regained for Israel.

Jesus is the way.
There is no other way.