Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Revelation1v8]

You’re right that believers are called saints.
You’re right that believers are called holy ones.
You’re right that hagios includes Christians. I’m not disputing that.
What I’m saying — and what the New Testament itself forces me to say — is that the group that accompanies Christ at His visible return is not determined by the dictionary meaning of hagios, but by the inspired context of each passage.
And in every passage describing the moment of His descent in glory, the “holy ones” are angels, not resurrected believers.

Sorry, but the Bible says that he returns will ALL of them. Maybe you should read more of Isaiah for the details:

The Bible describes the Millennial Kingdom in the book of Isaiah through multiple chapters, most notably Isaiah 2, Isaiah 9, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 32, and Isaiah 65. These passages outline the characteristics of Christ’s future 1,000-year reign on earth following His Second Coming.

Key characteristics of the Millennial Kingdom include:

• Global Peace and Disarmament: Nations will no longer wage war; they will beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks (Isaiah 2:4).
• Righteous Rule: Jesus Christ will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David with justice and righteousness (Isaiah 9:6-7). Princes will also rule in justice (Isaiah 32:1).
• Natural Harmony: The animal kingdom will be restored to peace; predators like wolves and lions will dwell with lambs and calves (Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25).
• Extended Longevity: Lifespans will be dramatically increased, with death considered premature only for those who do not live to the age of one hundred (Isaiah 65:20).
• Prosperity and Security: People will enjoy the fruit of their own labor without fear or confiscation (Isaiah 65:21-23). Disease and deformity will cease, and the blind will see and the lame will leap (Isaiah 35:5-6).
• Spiritual Knowledge: The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord (Isaiah 11:9).

While some theologians interpret Isaiah 65:17-25 as referring to the eternal New Heaven and New Earth, many dispensational and premillennial scholars argue it describes the Millennial Kingdom because it mentions births, deaths, and mortal lifespans, which are inconsistent with the eternal state described in Revelation 21-22.

When the 1,000 years of peace on earth is finished (Revelation 20), Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, all will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement in order to enter the New Jerusalem/Heaven that comes down from Heaven like Revelation chapter 21 tells us. There will be no need for judges, repopulating, or death in the New Jerusalem/Heaven. That's how we know all of this will take place on earth.

 

[OMC]

Sorry, but the Bible says that he returns will ALL of them. Maybe you should read more of Isaiah for the details:

The Bible describes the Millennial Kingdom in the book of Isaiah through multiple chapters, most notably Isaiah 2, Isaiah 9, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 32, and Isaiah 65. These passages outline the characteristics of Christ’s future 1,000-year reign on earth following His Second Coming.

Key characteristics of the Millennial Kingdom include:

• Global Peace and Disarmament: Nations will no longer wage war; they will beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks (Isaiah 2:4).
• Righteous Rule: Jesus Christ will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David with justice and righteousness (Isaiah 9:6-7). Princes will also rule in justice (Isaiah 32:1).
• Natural Harmony: The animal kingdom will be restored to peace; predators like wolves and lions will dwell with lambs and calves (Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25).
• Extended Longevity: Lifespans will be dramatically increased, with death considered premature only for those who do not live to the age of one hundred (Isaiah 65:20).
• Prosperity and Security: People will enjoy the fruit of their own labor without fear or confiscation (Isaiah 65:21-23). Disease and deformity will cease, and the blind will see and the lame will leap (Isaiah 35:5-6).
• Spiritual Knowledge: The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord (Isaiah 11:9).

While some theologians interpret Isaiah 65:17-25 as referring to the eternal New Heaven and New Earth, many dispensational and premillennial scholars argue it describes the Millennial Kingdom because it mentions births, deaths, and mortal lifespans, which are inconsistent with the eternal state described in Revelation 21-22.

When the 1,000 years of peace on earth is finished (Revelation 20), Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, all will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement in order to enter the New Jerusalem/Heaven that comes down from Heaven like Revelation chapter 21 tells us. There will be no need for judges, repopulating, or death in the New Jerusalem/Heaven. That's how we know all of this will take place on earth.

I see exactly what you’re doing, and I respect that you’re trying to build a coherent premillennial framework.
But the moment you say, “Sorry, but the Bible says He returns with ALL of them,” you’re making a leap the text itself never makes.

You’re merging two different events, two different groups, and two different prophetic images into one scene — and the New Testament simply does not allow that merger.
When I read the prophets and the apostles together, I see that believers are indeed called saints and holy ones, but the group that accompanies Christ in the act of His visible descent is consistently identified by Jesus and Paul as angels, not resurrected humans.

The resurrection of believers happens at His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), not before it, and the saints do not accompany Him until after they have been raised and gathered.
Isaiah’s kingdom prophecies describe the final restoration using covenantal imagery — peace, longevity, harmony — but they do not override the New Testament’s explicit statements about who comes with Christ when He appears.
the inspired interpretation of Zechariah 14:5 is given by Jesus Himself — the “holy ones” who accompany Him in His descent are angels, and the resurrection of believers happens after He arrives, not before.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I see exactly what you’re doing, and I respect that you’re trying to build a coherent premillennial framework.
But the moment you say, “Sorry, but the Bible says He returns with ALL of them,” you’re making a leap the text itself never makes.

You’re merging two different events, two different groups, and two different prophetic images into one scene — and the New Testament simply does not allow that merger.
When I read the prophets and the apostles together, I see that believers are indeed called saints and holy ones, but the group that accompanies Christ in the act of His visible descent is consistently identified by Jesus and Paul as angels, not resurrected humans.

The resurrection of believers happens at His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), not before it, and the saints do not accompany Him until after they have been raised and gathered.
Isaiah’s kingdom prophecies describe the final restoration using covenantal imagery — peace, longevity, harmony — but they do not override the New Testament’s explicit statements about who comes with Christ when He appears.
the inspired interpretation of Zechariah 14:5 is given by Jesus Himself — the “holy ones” who accompany Him in His descent are angels, and the resurrection of believers happens after He arrives, not before.

Why are you ignoring...

1 Thessalonians 4:14??!!

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Delvianna]

Unpopular opinions:
1) There is no rapture in the idea that the church preaches. It's a gathering to himself at the second coming, nothing more. (Resurrection comes first, which fits returning with everyone and the ones who are alive, will be gathered to Him who is already in the clouds)
2) Christ + Lord's army = restrainer, not the Holy Spirit. Because if that's the case with it being the Holy Spirit, you're essentially saying through the whole tribulation period, God's spirit isn't trying to win hearts. A restrainer doesn't temporarily stop restraining for .0001 seconds before coming back, the restrainer steps aside the entire tribulation period, which is why the church is trampled while only the sealed are protected.

Sealed = Church of Philadelphia, the only group who didn't need to be tested in the "trial that comes upon the whole earth". The rest of the churches, don't get that protection as they will be tested.

As in the days of Noah... Only 1 small section were protected, but present. As in the days of Lot, 1 small section were present, but protected.

No "rapture" apart from the alive ones that are gathered at the 2nd coming for temporary protection to kill the goats (Satans army). Which is the separation of sheeps and goats.

 

[OMC]

Why are you ignoring...

1 Thessalonians 4:14??!!

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul is not describing believers accompanying Christ in His descent, but believers being raised and brought into union with Christ after He descends — the “bringing with Him” refers to the result of resurrection, not the timing of accompaniment.

The dead in Christ are “brought with Him” because God will raise them and reunite them with Christ at His coming (vv. 16–17), not because they accompany Him from heaven.

Jesus and Paul both explicitly identify the group that accompanies Christ in the act of His visible return as angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7), and Paul’s own sequence in 1 Thessalonians 4 shows that believers meet Christ after He descends, not before. So 4:14 is about reunion, not escort — and it does not override Jesus’ own statement that He returns with “all the holy angels.”

 

[Revelation1v8]

Paul is not describing believers accompanying Christ in His descent, but believers being raised and brought into union with Christ after He descends — the “bringing with Him” refers to the result of resurrection, not the timing of accompaniment.

The dead in Christ are “brought with Him” because God will raise them and reunite them with Christ at His coming (vv. 16–17), not because they accompany Him from heaven.

Jesus and Paul both explicitly identify the group that accompanies Christ in the act of His visible return as angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7), and Paul’s own sequence in 1 Thessalonians 4 shows that believers meet Christ after He descends, not before. So 4:14 is about reunion, not escort — and it does not override Jesus’ own statement that He returns with “all the holy angels.”

Obviously, you're not familiar with definition of who "sleeps in Christ".

The people who "sleep in Christ" in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 are believers in Jesus Christ who have died. The phrase emphasizes the temporary nature of death for Christians, indicating that their physical bodies rest in the grave while their souls are with the Lord, awaiting resurrection.

Key aspects of this identity include:

• Christian Believers: The term specifically distinguishes deceased Christians from unbelievers, assuring the Thessalonians that their dead loved ones will not miss out on Christ's second coming.
• Union with Christ: To be "asleep in Jesus" signifies a continued spiritual union with Him, ensuring that just as Jesus died and rose again, God will bring these believers back with Him.
• Temporary State: The metaphor of sleep highlights that death is not a permanent destruction but a restful pause before the future resurrection and eternal life.

 

[OMC]

Obviously, you're not familiar with definition of who "sleeps in Christ".

The people who "sleep in Christ" in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 are believers in Jesus Christ who have died. The phrase emphasizes the temporary nature of death for Christians, indicating that their physical bodies rest in the grave while their souls are with the Lord, awaiting resurrection.

Key aspects of this identity include:

• Christian Believers: The term specifically distinguishes deceased Christians from unbelievers, assuring the Thessalonians that their dead loved ones will not miss out on Christ's second coming.
• Union with Christ: To be "asleep in Jesus" signifies a continued spiritual union with Him, ensuring that just as Jesus died and rose again, God will bring these believers back with Him.
• Temporary State: The metaphor of sleep highlights that death is not a permanent destruction but a restful pause before the future resurrection and eternal life.

The identity of “those who sleep in Jesus” is not in dispute.
But the question at hand is not who they are — it is when they accompany Christ.
Your definition of their identity is correct, but it does not answer the timing issue Paul is addressing in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Paul is not describing believers accompanying Christ in His descent, but believers being raised and brought into union with Christ after He descends — the “bringing with Him” refers to the result of resurrection, not the timing of accompaniment.

The dead in Christ are “brought with Him” because God will raise them and reunite them with Christ at His coming (vv. 16–17), not because they accompany Him from heaven.

Jesus and Paul both explicitly identify the group that accompanies Christ in the act of His visible return as angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7), and Paul’s own sequence in 1 Thessalonians 4 shows that believers meet Christ after He descends, not before. So 4:14 is about reunion, not escort — and it does not override Jesus’ own statement that He returns with “all the holy angels.”

I guess I also should have added this about the state we are in before the actual "resurrection".

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The identity of “those who sleep in Jesus” is not in dispute.
But the question at hand is not who they are — it is when they accompany Christ.
Your definition of their identity is correct, but it does not answer the timing issue Paul is addressing in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

You only say this because you choose to ignore that God/Jesus' will hold an earthly Millennial Kingdom reign on earth like Revelation 20, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah 14:9 says before the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. For the last time, Zechariah 14:5 says that Jesus will return WITH ALL of his saints and holy ones. I know this is hard for you to accept, but if you truly hold the Bible as the ultimate authority like your thread claims, you need to study it more and accept it.

 

[OMC]

You only say this because you choose to ignore that God/Jesus' will hold an earthly Millennial Kingdom reign on earth like Revelation 20, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah 14:9 says before the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. For the last time, Zechariah 14:5 says that Jesus will return WITH ALL of his saints and holy ones. I know this is hard for you to accept, but if you truly hold the Bible as the ultimate authority like your thread claims, you need to study it more and accept it

I do not deny an earthly reign of Christ. Revelation 20, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah 14 all speak of a real, earthly intervention and rule before the New Jerusalem descends. I accept that as written. The question between us is not whether Christ reigns on earth, but who is explicitly said to accompany Him in the act of His return, and when resurrected believers are united with Him

 

[Revelation1v8]

I do not deny an earthly reign of Christ. Revelation 20, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah 14 all speak of a real, earthly intervention and rule before the New Jerusalem descends. I accept that as written. The question between us is not whether Christ reigns on earth, but who is explicitly said to accompany Him in the act of His return, and when resurrected believers are united with Him

Didn't Jesus tell his 12 Disciples that wherever He was, they would be there also in John 14:3? Didn't he also promise them that they would be judges over the 12 tribes of Israel during this time in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30? If you believe in a Millennial Kingdom, then why do you have such a hard time accepting the fact that all of Jesus' saints will be accompanying Him to the earth like 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says they will?

Jesus told His Disciples that He would NEVER leave them, whether it be way of the Holy Spirit or otherwise, so how do you reconcile your belief?

 

[OMC]

Didn't Jesus tell his 12 Disciples that wherever He was, they would be there also in John 14:3? Didn't he also promise them that they would be judges over the 12 tribes of Israel during this time in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30? If you believe in a Millennial Kingdom, then why do you have such a hard time accepting the fact that all of Jesus' saints will be accompanying Him to the earth like 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says they will?

Jesus told His Disciples that He would NEVER leave them, whether it be way of the Holy Spirit or otherwise, so how do you reconcile your belief?

Did you not read my reply to the last go round? ok one more time.
I do not deny an earthly reign of Christ.
What I am saying is we get raised when He comes to do that

 

[Revelation1v8]

Did you not read my reply to the last go round? ok one more time.
I do not deny an earthly reign of Christ.
What I am saying is we get raised when He comes to do that

You're denying something, so what is it? You deny that the souls of Abraham and Jesus' Disciples are already in heaven with Jesus? Is that why you deny that they return with Jesus when He returns to earth for His Millennial Kingdom reign? I've already addressed that too, but you never said anything about it.

 

[OMC]

You're denying something, so what is it? You deny that the souls of Abraham and Jesus' Disciples are already in heaven with Jesus? Is that why you deny that they return with Jesus when He returns to earth for His Millennial Kingdom reign? I've already addressed that too, but you never said anything about it

I do not deny that Abraham, the patriarchs, or the apostles are already in heaven with Christ; Scripture clearly teaches their spirits are with the Lord. What I deny is the claim that these spirits accompany Christ in His descent when He returns. The New Testament gives a strict order: Christ descends first, then the dead in Christ are raised, then the living are caught up, and only then do all believers meet Him. Jesus Himself identifies angels — not resurrected saints — as the group accompanying Him in His visible return. So the saints return to earth in resurrection, not as an escort from heaven. Their souls are with Christ now, but their reunion with Him happens at His arrival, not during His descent

 

[Revelation1v8]

I do not deny that Abraham, the patriarchs, or the apostles are already in heaven with Christ; Scripture clearly teaches their spirits are with the Lord. What I deny is the claim that these spirits accompany Christ in His descent when He returns. The New Testament gives a strict order: Christ descends first, then the dead in Christ are raised, then the living are caught up, and only then do all believers meet Him. Jesus Himself identifies angels — not resurrected saints — as the group accompanying Him in His visible return. So the saints return to earth in resurrection, not as an escort from heaven. Their souls are with Christ now, but their reunion with Him happens at His arrival, not during His descent

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:14, those who "sleep in Jesus" return with Him, so that wouldn't be the angels. Your previous explanation still doesn't fit.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I do not deny that Abraham, the patriarchs, or the apostles are already in heaven with Christ; Scripture clearly teaches their spirits are with the Lord. What I deny is the claim that these spirits accompany Christ in His descent when He returns. The New Testament gives a strict order: Christ descends first, then the dead in Christ are raised, then the living are caught up, and only then do all believers meet Him. Jesus Himself identifies angels — not resurrected saints — as the group accompanying Him in His visible return. So the saints return to earth in resurrection, not as an escort from heaven. Their souls are with Christ now, but their reunion with Him happens at His arrival, not during His descent

This has to be the only explanation that is left...

Yes — that is the mainstream understanding drawn from 1 Thessalonians 4:14, which says God will "bring with Him" (Greek: para auton, "along with Himself") those who have fallen asleep. The implication is that their souls are already with Christ in heaven (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Luke 23:43), and at His return He brings them back down with Him.

The sequence, as most traditions read it:

1. Souls are already with Christ — at death, the believer's soul/spirit enters His presence immediately.
2. Christ descends with their souls — "the Lord himself will descend from heaven… and the dead in Christ will rise first" (v. 16).
3. Bodies are raised and transformed — their remains are resurrected into glorified, immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:52–54).
4. Reunion — the soul is reunited with its new resurrection body.
5. Living believers are caught up — those still alive are then transformed and joined together (v. 17).

So the "bringing with Him" language in verse 14 is the key: it presupposes the souls are already in His company, and He carries them back to reunite with their bodies. This is the view held across most Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions.

 

[Beekeeper]

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10-12‬ ‭

If John is writing in the time of Nero, that fits very well.
The beast that comes from the sea is Rome (from the Mediterranean).
The first seven Roman emperors: Julius Cesar, Augustus Cesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, then Galba, who continued for only 7 months.
That means that the one that "is" is Nero.
John is not at liberty to disclose the name of the man Nero, so he gives the Hebrew number of the name.
"NERON CESAR" transliterated into Hebrew letters adds up to six hundred and sixty six.

After Galba the Roman empire collapses into civil war and appears to be dead, but the Flavian dynasty (8th beast) arises from the destruction.
It is under this renewed Roman empire that Jerusalem is destroyed.
These are the events that John predicts "must shortly come to pass" in Revelations 1:1.

 

[OMC]

This has to be the only explanation that is left...

Yes — that is the mainstream understanding drawn from 1 Thessalonians 4:14, which says God will "bring with Him" (Greek: para auton, "along with Himself") those who have fallen asleep. The implication is that their souls are already with Christ in heaven (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Luke 23:43), and at His return He brings them back down with Him.

The sequence, as most traditions read it:

1. Souls are already with Christ — at death, the believer's soul/spirit enters His presence immediately.
2. Christ descends with their souls — "the Lord himself will descend from heaven… and the dead in Christ will rise first" (v. 16).
3. Bodies are raised and transformed — their remains are resurrected into glorified, immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:52–54).
4. Reunion — the soul is reunited with its new resurrection body.
5. Living believers are caught up — those still alive are then transformed and joined together (v. 17).

So the "bringing with Him" language in verse 14 is the key: it presupposes the souls are already in His company, and He carries them back to reunite with their bodies. This is the view held across most Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions.

I think what you’re missing is that their souls are with him, and they won’t get their bodies until he comes and raises the sleeping to give them their new bodies.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You're right about Jesus being the fountain that's opens up in Israel for forgiveness and the cleansing of sin, but the Hebrews/Israelites are not grafted back into the Olive Tree until after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in like Paul tells us in Romans 11:25. All of Romans 11 will give you a better understanding how when God/Jesus is done with the Gentiles, He'll return his focus back to the Jews in order to save a remnant of them and graft them back into the original Olive Tree. The reason we know this hasn't happened yet is because of Zechariah 13:6. Jesus will have already returned and showing them the wounds in His hands as proof of who He is in that same chapter.

“You're right about Jesus being the fountain that's opens up in Israel for forgiveness and the cleansing of sin, but the Hebrews/Israelites are not grafted back into the Olive Tree until after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in like Paul tells us….”

paul was and all the early disciples were Hebrews and converted other Hebrews all along . They aren’t excluded from Christ they exclude themselves just like any nationality


If you look it says if they don’t continue in unbelief they’ll be grafted in again ……that’s true now and always for Jew and gentile . Gentiles are now able to join the commonwealth of isreal through Christ but ……. It has nothing to do with flesh and blood identity is the thing it’s who believes ……if we don’t believe we’ll be cut off if we believe we’ll be grafted in .

I agree if any Israelite repents and believes in Christ they’ll be included or if any gentile rejects Christ they are excluded. Same with Jews they reject chist is the elephant in the room. Just like many many gentile nationality of people do . Being of flesh and blood line doesn’t make anyone israel

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t belong to god because we’re born into any particular flesh and blood line but because we’re born again through believing the gospel . The determining factor is faith in Christ individually everyones the same we’re all cursed because of sin and need redemption


When we see this

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, And shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to also have read what Paul was writing just before that

“they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
also he just said this of israel before in his letter
“Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see what I’m saying at all ?

Are we to dismiss this part for the other. Or consider what it’s saying in both ?

“they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: “

should we then interpret this to mean every flesh and blood israelite shall be saved ?

“And so all Israel shall be saved”

suprisingly if we just carefully and prayerfully read his letters to ourselves they are just incredible deep explainations of the biblical subject matter

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If John is writing in the time of Nero, that fits very well.
The beast that comes from the sea is Rome (from the Mediterranean).
The first seven Roman emperors: Julius Cesar, Augustus Cesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, then Galba, who continued for only 7 months.
That means that the one that "is" is Nero.
John is not at liberty to disclose the name of the man Nero, so he gives the Hebrew number of the name.
"NERON CESAR" transliterated into Hebrew letters adds up to six hundred and sixty six.

After Galba the Roman empire collapses into civil war and appears to be dead, but the Flavian dynasty (8th beast) arises from the destruction.
It is under this renewed Roman empire that Jerusalem is destroyed.
These are the events that John predicts "must shortly come to pass" in Revelations 1:1.

Lord of good info