The Church, and Israel and the Last Days.

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Um, are you going to show me what I said or you going to just blame everyone else?
You have this idea that I am rewriting the scripture and I would very much like to see that please.
When is Noah gathered?
Before the flood?
When is lot gathered ?
Before the city burned?

Rewrite the bible?
If you are saying lot stayed and the population of Sodom were gathered , then yes, you got a really special bible.

I think you're otta gas trying to go against Gods word.

I can tell you, the written Word you are being forced to oppose ....it ain't going away to make room for a postrib rapture, that I am easily showing to be false.
 
When is Noah gathered?
Before the flood?
When is lot gathered ?
Before the city burned?

Rewrite the bible?
If you are saying lot stayed and the population of Sodom were gathered , then yes, you got a really special bible.

I think you're otta gas trying to go against Gods word.

I can tell you, the written Word you are being forced to oppose ....it ain't going away to make room for a postrib rapture, that I am easily showing to be false.
Noah was sealed in the ark ( preserved)
All others removed from planet by death of flood waters.
Lot was taken by the hand by an angel (preserved)
all others were removed by way of death by fire.

You are not getting who is removed and who is preserved.
 
You are the one who accused me of rewriting scripture. Show me.
All postribs do it.
Who are the 144,000?
Who is gathered DURING the trib in Rev 14;14?
Who is taken in mat 24?
Who is left behind in Matthew 24?
When is lot taken ?
After Sodom burns?
What picture is presented in the virgin parable ?
Who is taken, and who is left behind?

Where is tge rapture in the Noah and Lot analogies?
Or is the coming of Jesus not the rapture in those analogies?

There are many more that you answer incorrectly.
All bible, and all you reframe.

That's just a start at what you reframe.
 
The church.
the nation of Israel
Biblical nation of Israel
How do these all fit in the last days is a question that is one of the most abused in modern theology.
The Three Are Not the Same — and Scripture Never Confuses Them.

1. The Church (ἐκκλησία)
The Church is:
Jew + Gentile together
One new humanity (Eph 2:15)
The Body of Christ
The people of the New Covenant
Defined by Christ’s blood, not ethnicity
The Church is not a nation, not a geopolitical entity, and not an ethnic group.
It is the assembly of the redeemed, gathered under the risen Christ.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.
Paul forbids collapsing them (Rom 11).

2. Modern State of Israel (1948–present)

The modern nation-state of Israel is:
a secular political entity
not a covenant nation
not the restored theocracy
not the fulfillment of the prophets
not the kingdom of God
It has historical continuity with ancient Israel, but no covenant continuity.
God did not re-establish the Sinai covenant in 1948.The prophets never said He would.
Modern Israel is political, not theological.

3. Biblical Israel (Old Covenant Israel)

Biblical Israel was:
a covenant nation under Torah
a theocracy
a priestly people
a national vessel for Messiah
a people judged, exiled, restored, judged again, and replaced by the New Covenant
Biblical Israel was destroyed as a covenant nation (Heb 8:13).
Not erased as a people — but its covenant ended.

Biblical Israel is not the modern state.
Biblical Israel is not the Church.
Biblical Israel is the Old Covenant nation that served its purpose: to bring forth Messiah.

How They Fit in the Last Days

A. The Church in the Last Days

The Church:
suffers
witnesses
endures
is purified
is gathered to Christ
reigns with Him
The Church is the central redeemed community of the last days.
Not Israel.
Not America.
Not any nation.

B. Modern Israel in the Last Days

Modern Israel plays a historical role, not a covenant role.
Scripture does not assign:
salvation to the state
covenant to the state
prophetic fulfillment to the state
kingdom authority to the state
But Scripture does foresee conflict centered in Jerusalem, and nations gathering around it (Zech 12–14).
Modern Israel is geopolitical stage, not covenant actor.

C. Biblical Israel in the Last Days

Biblical Israel’s role is eschatological, not political.

Paul says: “A partial hardening has happened… until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.” (Rom 11:25)
This is not the modern state.
This is the Jewish people, as a people, experiencing a future turning to Christ.
Not a return to Torah. Not a return to the old covenant. Not a return to the theocracy.
A return to their Messiah.
That is the biblical “Israel in the last days.”

The Church = New Covenant people of Christ (Jew + Gentile).
Modern Israel = secular nation-state, not covenant Israel.
Biblical Israel = Old Covenant nation, fulfilled and superseded by Christ.

In the last days:
The Church is the redeemed community.
Modern Israel is the geopolitical stage.
Biblical Israel (the Jewish people) experiences a future turning to Christ — not a return to Moses.
That is the clean, text-anchored distinction.

I encourage debate on any of these topics.
The Key is found In Malachi 4
 
All postribs do it.
Who are the 144,000?
Who is gathered DURING the trib in Rev 14;14?
Who is taken in mat 24?
Who is left behind in Matthew 24?
When is lot taken ?
After Sodom burns?
What picture is presented in the virgin parable ?
Who is taken, and who is left behind?

Where is tge rapture in the Noah and Lot analogies?
Or is the coming of Jesus not the rapture in those analogies?

There are many more that you answer incorrectly.
All bible, and all you reframe.

That's just a start at what you reframe.
Again, you are stating all those actions backwards. The wicked were removed by death. There is no resurrection till Christ comes. So where you think I'm saying that is just untrue.
 
Noah was sealed in the ark ( preserved)
All others removed from planet by death of flood waters.
Lot was taken by the hand by an angel (preserved)
all others were removed by way of death by fire.

You are not getting who is removed and who is preserved.
Who left in the boat ?
Who was clawing, banging , and screaming to get into it?
Who makes up the 50% taken?
50% of what? The planet?

You have never processed the setting.
That alone makes your theory impossible.
You never processed the facts.
All you see is misplaced judgement.

The setting is way way off in your doctrine....miles off.
The 50% taken is way way off from your doctrine.
Noah gathered into the ark PRETRIB, DURING THE VIVID PRETRIB SETTING, has your theory of wicked man rapture pretrib looking really bad.

And Jesus says his coming is compared to BEFORE THE FLOOD.
 
Who left in the boat ?
Who was clawing, banging , and screaming to get into it?
Who makes up the 50% taken?
50% of what? The planet?

You have never processed the setting.
That alone makes your theory impossible.
You never processed the facts.
All you see is misplaced judgement.

The setting is way way off in your doctrine....miles off.
The 50% taken is way way off from your doctrine.
Noah gathered into the ark PRETRIB, DURING THE VIVID PRETRIB SETTING, has your theory of wicked man rapture pretrib looking really bad.

And Jesus says his coming is compared to BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Brother, do you understand Grammer? English grammer? Would writing this out in greek help?
Νῶε ἐσφραγίσθη ἐν τῇ κιβωτῷ (ἐτηρήθη), πάντες δὲ οἱ λοιποὶ ἀφῃρέθησαν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς διὰ τοῦ θανάτου τῶν ὑδάτων. Λώτ ἐκρατήθη τῇ χειρὶ ὑπὸ ἀγγέλου (ἐτηρήθη), πάντες δὲ οἱ λοιποὶ ἀφῃρέθησαν διὰ τοῦ θανάτου τοῦ πυρός.
does this help?
 
so far I have not seen anyone here claim that.
Who claimed that? Post number?

Yes people have claimed that, if they hadn't there wouldn't be a discussion. Go back through my comments, I spoke directly to someone who said we are the new Jews or become Jews, something that corrected.
 
The rapture is not in Matthew 24:37 or Luke 17:30 because those verses are not about the gathering of the saints; they are about the fate of the wicked at the moment of Christ’s appearing. The only place Jesus explicitly describes the rapture is Matthew 24:29–31, where He says the angels gather the elect after the tribulation. So yes, there are rapture verses in the Bible, but they are where Jesus actually places them—not where you are trying to insert them.
Luke 17
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29;But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

No rapture in vs 30?


BTW,
That gathering in mat 24:31 is not the rapture.
Reread it.
JESUS SENDS ANGELS.
Does NOT go himself.
They GATHER FROM HEAVEN.

A gathering in heaven by angels after the trib.
In NO WAY is that the rapture.
Way way off
 
Brother, do you understand Grammer? English grammer? Would writing this out in greek help?
Νῶε ἐσφραγίσθη ἐν τῇ κιβωτῷ (ἐτηρήθη), πάντες δὲ οἱ λοιποὶ ἀφῃρέθησαν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς διὰ τοῦ θανάτου τῶν ὑδάτων. Λώτ ἐκρατήθη τῇ χειρὶ ὑπὸ ἀγγέλου (ἐτηρήθη), πάντες δὲ οἱ λοιποὶ ἀφῃρέθησαν διὰ τοῦ θανάτου τοῦ πυρός.
does this help?
Ok
You are no longer contending against the bible?
Bravo.
Start over.
Embrace what the bible says.
You are welcome.
 
Again, you are stating all those actions backwards. The wicked were removed by death. There is no resurrection till Christ comes. So where you think I'm saying that is just untrue.
1)Lot removed
2) The 5 wise virgins removed

But don't let that stop you from your assertion That the wicked are always removed.

Again 50% are taken, pretrib.
All laid out vividly in mat 24.
Your twisting that to say there is a wicked people rapture pretrib of half the planet.

Wild stuff for shure.
I know, I know, doctrinal impossibility, but it somehow does not matter.
 
Kobayashi Maru

Mat 24
38;For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41;Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


your "interpretation";
"...Pretrib wicked man rapture of half the planet .
Half the planet saved and half wicked.
But Jesus does not come at that time, so that coming is just to remove the wicked pretrib.
But, but,but, there is only one coming after the flood.
That one , "before the flood", does not count."

SMH
 
One coming.
Postrib doctrine.
It all hinges on "one coming"

Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Rev 14,14
Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle.

The Bible itself blocks man's made up theories.
 
Mat 24
38;For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41;Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


your "interpretation";
"...Pretrib wicked man rapture of half the planet .
Half the planet saved and half wicked.
But Jesus does not come at that time, so that coming is just to remove the wicked pretrib.
But, but,but, there is only one coming after the flood.
That one , "before the flood", does not count."

SMH
YOU SAID THAT. Not me. I NEVER said they were raptured! THEY WERE REMOVED BY FLOOD AND FIRE. Learn english bro
 
1)Lot removed
2) The 5 wise virgins removed

But don't let that stop you from your assertion That the wicked are always removed.

Again 50% are taken, pretrib.
All laid out vividly in mat 24.
Your twisting that to say there is a wicked people rapture pretrib of half the planet.

Wild stuff for shure.
I know, I know, doctrinal impossibility, but it somehow does not matter.

I'm not sure why you keep using Matthew 24 as a reference because it refutes your view. Let's pick apart how A.I. describes these differences in interpretations and see if there's even a precise answer to it:

Key Distinctions
  • Contextual Analogy: The judgment view relies on the immediate context of Matthew 24:39, where the "taking" is explicitly linked to the destructive flood that "swept them away." The salvation view focuses on the typology of Noah and Lot as rescued from evil.
  • Luke 17:37: In response to the disciples asking "Where, Lord?" Jesus replies, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." The judgment view interprets this as indicating that those "taken" are dead bodies under judgment, whereas the salvation view sees this as a general statement about the inevitability of judgment without specifying the group taken.
  • Translation Nuance: Some translations (like the ESV or NLT) use "swept away" for the Noahic reference, emphasizing destruction, while others use "taken," leading to the debate over whether the term implies rescue or removal for punishment.
Ultimately, the interpretation hinges on whether one sees the primary analogy in Matthew 24 as the destruction of the wicked (Noah’s day) or the rescue of the righteous (Lot’s escape).

This is one of the most debated passages in eschatology, and the honest answer is that the weight of the immediate context in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 points strongly toward the judgment reading, while the rapture is a separate event described elsewhere. Here's how the pieces fit together:

The Immediate Context Favors Judgment​

The "one taken, one left" statement is not a standalone rapture passage. It sits inside a specific argument:

  • Matthew 24:37–39 — "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man... Then the flood came and destroyed them all."
  • Luke 17:26–30 — The same Noah and Lot examples, both ending with "fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."
In both original narratives, the wicked were the ones destroyed ("taken" by the flood/fire) and the righteous were the ones who survived ("left" on the earth). Noah was left on the earth; Lot was left in Zoar. The analogy Jesus is drawing is: just as the wicked in Noah's/Lot's day were suddenly destroyed while the righteous continued, so it will be at the Son of Man's coming.

Luke 17:37 Is the Decisive Verse
This is the verse that most decisively breaks the tie. The disciples ask, "Where, Lord?" — meaning, where will those who are taken go? Jesus answers:
"Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."
This is the same imagery as Matthew 24:28, which is unambiguously about the battle of Armageddon (cf. Revelation 19:17–18, where vultures are summoned to eat the flesh of the slain). It is extremely difficult to read "where the corpse is, the vultures gather" as a description of believers being snatched up to heaven. The "taken" ones are the ones who die in judgment.

The Rapture Is a Separate Event

The rapture is described with different language in 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51–52, using the Greek harpazō ("to snatch/catch away"), not paralambanō. The rapture is presented as:

  • A separate, prior event before the tribulation
  • Involving the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the change of living believers
  • Described as meeting the Lord "in the air" — not associated with corpses or vultures
So the reconciliation is: Matthew 24:40–41 and Luke 17:34–36 describe the Second Coming (the parousia) and its accompanying judgment, not the rapture. The "taken" are the unbelievers taken into judgment; the "left" are the righteous who survive to enter the kingdom.

What About Lot and the Five Wise Virgins?

These passages describe different events and don't contradict Matthew 24:

  • Lot (Genesis 19) — Lot was rescued from Sodom, yes, but Jesus is using the Lot story to illustrate the suddenness of judgment on the wicked, not to say "the righteous will be taken." The focus is on the wicked who were destroyed while the righteous continued.
  • Five Wise Virgins (Matthew 25:1–12) — This parable is about preparedness for the Bridegroom's arrival, not about a physical removal from the earth. The five wise virgins are "taken into the wedding" (i.e., admitted to the kingdom), while the five foolish are shut out. This is about entry into the kingdom, not a pre-tribulation rapture.

The Paralambano / John 14:3 Argument

The strongest counterargument is that paralambanō in Matthew 24:40 is the same word Jesus uses in John 14:3 ("I will take you to myself"). However, as R. T. France and others note, the verb itself does not determine the purpose of the "taking" — it can be used in both positive and negative contexts (e.g., Matthew 27:27, where soldiers "take" Jesus for crucifixion). The context determines the meaning, and the context of Matthew 24:37–41 is squarely about judgment.
 
I'm not sure why you keep using Matthew 24 as a reference because it refutes your view. Let's pick apart how A.I. describes these differences in interpretations and see if there's even a precise answer to it:

Key Distinctions
  • Contextual Analogy: The judgment view relies on the immediate context of Matthew 24:39, where the "taking" is explicitly linked to the destructive flood that "swept them away." The salvation view focuses on the typology of Noah and Lot as rescued from evil.
  • Luke 17:37: In response to the disciples asking "Where, Lord?" Jesus replies, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." The judgment view interprets this as indicating that those "taken" are dead bodies under judgment, whereas the salvation view sees this as a general statement about the inevitability of judgment without specifying the group taken.
  • Translation Nuance: Some translations (like the ESV or NLT) use "swept away" for the Noahic reference, emphasizing destruction, while others use "taken," leading to the debate over whether the term implies rescue or removal for punishment.
Ultimately, the interpretation hinges on whether one sees the primary analogy in Matthew 24 as the destruction of the wicked (Noah’s day) or the rescue of the righteous (Lot’s escape).

This is one of the most debated passages in eschatology, and the honest answer is that the weight of the immediate context in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 points strongly toward the judgment reading, while the rapture is a separate event described elsewhere. Here's how the pieces fit together:

The Immediate Context Favors Judgment​

The "one taken, one left" statement is not a standalone rapture passage. It sits inside a specific argument:

  • Matthew 24:37–39 — "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man... Then the flood came and destroyed them all."
  • Luke 17:26–30 — The same Noah and Lot examples, both ending with "fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."
In both original narratives, the wicked were the ones destroyed ("taken" by the flood/fire) and the righteous were the ones who survived ("left" on the earth). Noah was left on the earth; Lot was left in Zoar. The analogy Jesus is drawing is: just as the wicked in Noah's/Lot's day were suddenly destroyed while the righteous continued, so it will be at the Son of Man's coming.

Luke 17:37 Is the Decisive Verse
This is the verse that most decisively breaks the tie. The disciples ask, "Where, Lord?" — meaning, where will those who are taken go? Jesus answers:

This is the same imagery as Matthew 24:28, which is unambiguously about the battle of Armageddon (cf. Revelation 19:17–18, where vultures are summoned to eat the flesh of the slain). It is extremely difficult to read "where the corpse is, the vultures gather" as a description of believers being snatched up to heaven. The "taken" ones are the ones who die in judgment.

The Rapture Is a Separate Event

The rapture is described with different language in 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51–52, using the Greek harpazō ("to snatch/catch away"), not paralambanō. The rapture is presented as:

  • A separate, prior event before the tribulation
  • Involving the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the change of living believers
  • Described as meeting the Lord "in the air" — not associated with corpses or vultures
So the reconciliation is: Matthew 24:40–41 and Luke 17:34–36 describe the Second Coming (the parousia) and its accompanying judgment, not the rapture. The "taken" are the unbelievers taken into judgment; the "left" are the righteous who survive to enter the kingdom.

What About Lot and the Five Wise Virgins?

These passages describe different events and don't contradict Matthew 24:

  • Lot (Genesis 19) — Lot was rescued from Sodom, yes, but Jesus is using the Lot story to illustrate the suddenness of judgment on the wicked, not to say "the righteous will be taken." The focus is on the wicked who were destroyed while the righteous continued.
  • Five Wise Virgins (Matthew 25:1–12) — This parable is about preparedness for the Bridegroom's arrival, not about a physical removal from the earth. The five wise virgins are "taken into the wedding" (i.e., admitted to the kingdom), while the five foolish are shut out. This is about entry into the kingdom, not a pre-tribulation rapture.

The Paralambano / John 14:3 Argument

The strongest counterargument is that paralambanō in Matthew 24:40 is the same word Jesus uses in John 14:3 ("I will take you to myself"). However, as R. T. France and others note, the verb itself does not determine the purpose of the "taking" — it can be used in both positive and negative contexts (e.g., Matthew 27:27, where soldiers "take" Jesus for crucifixion). The context determines the meaning, and the context of Matthew 24:37–41 is squarely about judgment.
The supposed “two interpretations” only exist when someone refuses to let Jesus define His own analogy; once you keep His words in sequence, the meaning is singular and unavoidable.
In Matthew 24:39, Jesus Himself identifies who is “taken”: “the flood came and took them all away.”
That is the wicked, not the righteous.
He then says, “so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be,” meaning the pattern carries forward.
In Luke 17, He repeats the same pattern twice — Noah and Lot — and in both cases the ones “taken” are the ones destroyed.
When the disciples ask, “Where, Lord?” Jesus answers with corpse‑and‑vulture imagery, which is judgment language (cf. Rev 19), not rapture language.
The verb paralambanō cannot override the context, because Matthew uses the same verb for soldiers “taking” Jesus to be crucified. The AI’s “two views” are not two legitimate readings; they are one contextual reading (judgment) and one system‑driven reading (rapture) imposed from outside the passage.
The text itself is precise: the ones taken are the judged; the ones left are the preserved. The rapture is real, but it is described in harpazō passages, not in judgment analogies.
 
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