Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Pilgrimshope]

Sorry but your freedom is in the hands of your master. Humans have never been autonomous or free, we can't do what we want to do. We can only do as our nature and master dictate.

“Sorry but your freedom is in the hands of your master. Humans have never been autonomous or free, we can't do what we want to do. We can only do as our nature and master dictate.“

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,

but by love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭

The issue beforehand

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:14-15, 18, 21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thanks be to Jesus as we read on the solution

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭

Remember he’s been saying this since chapter 6 ?

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

….knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage……. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1, 13-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we have no ability to make a choice between following the spirit or the flesh …..we’re in trouble it seems like

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


see this part ?

“the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.“


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: ( he’s describing sin) of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-25‬ ‭

Im Not sure we’re puppets without any choice in what we say and do brother I mean how unfair would this be if that’s true ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It doesn’t seem to add up

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭

“I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It doesn’t make sense if we’re just doing what our master makes us do to be judged as if we’re doing it .

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like somehow we should at least begin to think we can be free of we trust Jesus word and even let in the possibility that we are going to give an account for everything we’ve done and said ourselves one day . Maybe we could begin to do new things that we didn’t think were possible before just by beginning to believe

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

maybe believing we can’t choose and decide what to do ourselves ……is what keeps us from the freedom that’s clearly offered and promised in scripture

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God bless brother and please understand I’m not claiming anyone’s gonna be perfect just that we can perfect our mind and attitude towards sin and begin to accept that Christ can make us free and it’s actually our choice to let him he’s already willing for all people

 

[OMC]

The phrase once enlightened in Hebrews 6:4 refers to a certain level of instruction in biblical truth. Of course, understanding Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Jesus has given light “to every man” (John 1:9), but that doesn’t mean every man is saved; rather, every man has enough light to be held responsible.

The phrase tasted the heavenly gift in Hebrews 6:4 refers to a momentary experience. They did not “imbibe” or “consume” the gift; they only “tasted” it. The tragedy of tasting the heavenly gift without embracing it could be likened to the sad experience of the thorny and stony soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3–23). People can initially respond positively to the truth of the gospel yet not have a true change of heart.

The phrase shared in the Holy Spirit in Hebrews 6:4 indicates a proximity to and familiarity with the Spirit’s work. But it does not convey a sense of being born again. Biblical phrases such as sealed with the Holy Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit would indicate salvation, but simply “sharing in” the Spirit is something different.

People can be exposed to the salvation experience yet not know Christ in a saving sense. Simon the sorcerer “believed and was baptized,” he followed Philip the evangelist, and he was “astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw” (Acts 8:13). But, for all that, Simon was unsaved (see Acts 8:20–23).

The idea of “falling away” in Hebrews 6:6 is the act of turning one’s back on the revelation given. The “tasting” of truth is not enough to keep a person from falling away from it. To behold the light, to understand the truth, and to enjoy the fringe benefits of righteousness, only to then reject the light is to treat Christ with contempt.

The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical situation: “If a Christian were to fall away.” In that case (if a Christian falls away), it would be impossible to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (see Hebrews 9:28), and if His gift of salvation could be lost, then that’s the end. Christ is not going to sacrifice Himself twice, and so there would be no hope for the sinner at all.

The passage presents a false premise (that a true Christian might fall away) and follows it through to a logical conclusion. That conclusion (that Jesus would need to be sacrificed again and again to “resave” people) is absurd. The argument is an example of reductio ad absurdum. The weakness of this view is that the Greek text does not contain a word equivalent to the English if.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation is that the writer of Hebrews is not describing believers but unbelievers who are “on the fence” about Christ. In that case, the warning in this passage is not that believers might lose their salvation but that unbelievers might lose their chance to be saved. The second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible.

Hebrews 6:4–6 is describing people who genuinely encountered the realities of God’s kingdom—real illumination, real tasting of Christ’s gift, real participation in the Spirit’s power—but who never responded with persevering faith, and because they turned away from what they truly experienced, they reached a point where repentance is no longer possible; the warning is severe, but its purpose is pastoral, urging us to cling to Christ rather than drift from Him. The phrases the writer uses are never applied in Scripture to casual observers, and “tasting” in Hebrews means genuine experience, not superficial sampling; likewise, “sharing in the Spirit” means real participation in His work, not merely standing nearby. The point is not that true believers lose salvation, nor that salvation is fragile, but that exposure to the gospel without perseverance leads to hardness, and that rejecting Christ after truly encountering Him is spiritually catastrophic. Yet the writer immediately says he is “persuaded of better things” for his readers—things that accompany salvation—meaning the warning is real, but the expectation is hopeful

 

[Journey_man]

“Sorry but your freedom is in the hands of your master. Humans have never been autonomous or free, we can't do what we want to do. We can only do as our nature and master dictate.“

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,

but by love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭

The issue beforehand

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:14-15, 18, 21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thanks be to Jesus as we read on the solution

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭

Remember he’s been saying this since chapter 6 ?

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

….knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage……. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1, 13-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we have no ability to make a choice between following the spirit or the flesh …..we’re in trouble it seems like

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


see this part ?

“the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.“


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: ( he’s describing sin) of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-25‬ ‭

Im Not sure we’re puppets without any choice in what we say and do brother I mean how unfair would this be if that’s true ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It doesn’t seem to add up

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God bless brother and please understand I’m not claiming anyone’s gonna be perfect just that we can perfect our mind and attitude towards sin and begin to accept that Christ can make us free and it’s actually our choice to let him he’s already willing for all people

The Bible teaches that nobody has a free will. Because of Adam's fall, human nature is corrupted. Fallen humans naturally desire sin and cannot choose God on their own.

Ephesians 2:5: States that humans are "dead in trespasses," meaning they lack spiritual life and response ability on their own.

Romans 8:7: Declares that the "mind set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."
Romans 6:20: Notes that unsaved, people are "slaves to sin" and free from righteousness.

God must change the human heart (the new birth) before a person can believe. Once God frees a person from their bondage to sin, they willingly choose to love and follow Christ.

 

[Journey_man]

Hebrews 6:4–6 is describing people who genuinely encountered the realities of God’s kingdom—real illumination, real tasting of Christ’s gift, real participation in the Spirit’s power—but who never responded with persevering faith, and because they turned away from what they truly experienced, they reached a point where repentance is no longer possible; the warning is severe, but its purpose is pastoral, urging us to cling to Christ rather than drift from Him. The phrases the writer uses are never applied in Scripture to casual observers, and “tasting” in Hebrews means genuine experience, not superficial sampling; likewise, “sharing in the Spirit” means real participation in His work, not merely standing nearby. The point is not that true believers lose salvation, nor that salvation is fragile, but that exposure to the gospel without perseverance leads to hardness, and that rejecting Christ after truly encountering Him is spiritually catastrophic. Yet the writer immediately says he is “persuaded of better things” for his readers—things that accompany salvation—meaning the warning is real, but the expectation is hopeful

I have thoroughly corrected your interpretation of Hebrews 6 using scripture. I get the sense that you're either not interested in finding out what the truth of the matter is, or the truth may be unacceptable to you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Bible teaches that nobody has a free will. Because of Adam's fall, human nature is corrupted. Fallen humans naturally desire sin and cannot choose God on their own.

Ephesians 2:5: States that humans are "dead in trespasses," meaning they lack spiritual life and response ability on their own.

Romans 8:7: Declares that the "mind set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."
Romans 6:20: Notes that unsaved, people are "slaves to sin" and free from righteousness.

God must change the human heart (the new birth) before a person can believe. Once God frees a person from their bondage to sin, they willingly choose to love and follow Christ.

Yeah it sure does ……but then it explains that you aren’t a slave to sin anymore if you’ve been baptized into Christ you’ve been made free .

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin,

ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul isn’t just telling us the problem of sin he’s also telling us there’s freedom from sins dominion so we don’t have to serve it anymore And warning us about if we do

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;


whether of sin unto death,


or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:4, 6-7, 11-13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like Christian’s are free and are being taught about good and evil but I digress brother

 

[Journey_man]

Yeah it sure does ……but then it explains that you aren’t a slave to sin anymore if you’ve been baptized into Christ you’ve been made free .

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin,

ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul isn’t just telling us the problem of sin he’s also telling us there’s freedom from sins dominion so we don’t have to serve it anymore And warning us about if we do

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;


whether of sin unto death,


or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:4, 6-7, 11-13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like Christian’s are free and are being taught about good and evil but I digress brother

I can't agree with your view, because I'm saved but I'm still not free. I used to be a slave to sin and Satan, and now I'm a slave to righteousness and the Lord.

I don't normally quote Rock singers, but a Rolling Stones song says, "well it may be the Devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're going to have to serve somebody".

When Adam sinned, he became a bond servant of Satan. By rebelling against God and obeying Satan, he gave Satan a legal right to rule over him and the rest of humanity. Everyone born after Adam, inherited a sin nature which is enslaved to sin and Satan.

Satan is the most powerful, wise and talented Creature in the universe, no other Angel or human can overpower Him. Nobody can escape from His power or dominion over them. If God doesn't save us from bondage to Satan, then we are condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire with Him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I can't agree with your view, because I'm saved but I'm still not free. I used to be a slave to sin and Satan, and now I'm a slave to righteousness and the Lord.

I don't normally quote Rock singers, but a Rolling Stones song says, "well it may be the Devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're going to have to serve somebody".

When Adam sinned, he became a bond servant of Satan. By rebelling against God and obeying Satan, he gave Satan a legal right to rule over him and the rest of humanity. Everyone born after Adam, inherited a sin nature which is enslaved to sin and Satan.

Satan is the most powerful, wise and talented Creature in the universe, no other Angel or human can overpower Him. Nobody can escape from His power or dominion over them. If God doesn't save us from bondage to Satan, then we are condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire with Him.

“I can't agree with your view, because I'm saved but I'm still not free. I used to be a slave to sin and Satan, and now I'm a slave to righteousness and the Lord.”



ahhh you are using niv terminology …

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.

But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;

rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you see that they aren’t forced like slaves with no choice but they are bieng taught and instructed what to do and not to do ?


“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭NIV‬‬

You’re free but don’t become a slave again. …..

“I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness,

so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:19‬ ‭

Do you see the freedom to choose and pursue one or the other ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

god is holding us accountable for what we do whether good or bad ? But we were just soaves with no choice ? Why not just punish Satan for what he made us do ? Why punish the helpless fools who never had any stake or control in what they said or did ?

Wow is god gonna judge me for my deeds and words yet ….. all this time I thought I myself did wrong and should repent really that wasn’t my fault ….I’ve spent a lot of time thinking I’ve made some pretty big mistakes and bad choices in my 73 years but ….. it’s all the devil when I did bad and I can’t do good I’m incapable so then wow brother why is god going to hold us accountable as if we chose and did the evil and good ?

This doesn’t make any sense I begin not capable and yet an all knowing and merciful just god ……. Treats me as if I did these things willfully myself

““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,

and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Seems like choices and consequence

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We have to determine whether we are going to serve good or evil and then apply ourselves to the doctrine we’re taught believing it

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”


Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34-36‬ ‭NIV‬‬


Sons don’t operate like being elslaved against thier will thier free men and hiers who are called to grow up and live upright in his image

at he term servant works much better so we understand we’re choosing whether to serve good or evil we aren’t being forced against our Will

 

[JimiSurvivor]

1) REPENTED of their sins, - (there is nothing to prevent the reprobate from FALSELY repenting)

a. I notice how, in order to make the written words of the text agree with your false theological system you have to do some work on the text. One involves importing ideas and words and placing them with your own ideas and presuppositions. In this verse, rather than offer exegetical analysis you add your own term FALSELY in to the text
b. However, the BIBLE uses the word REPENTANCE not FALSE REPENTANCE
c. As to the foundational truths that had been taught to these people

The Reformers did not have any campaigns of extermination, you have no historical evidence to make such an outrageous claim.

I admit that it is sometimes it is difficult to find out exactly what did and did not happen given the various accounts. However, it cannot be denied that the Reformers sanctioned policies which led to the deaths of their doctrinal opponents such as the Anabaptists. Pretty much all the Reformers were in agreement about ridding their lands of the Jews through an organized program of persecution. Luther wrote down his plan of accomplishing this in his book "On the Jews and Their lies"
Having read this, I can only conclude that Luther was an violent Anti-Semite

You tried to use the following as evidence that the reprobate were once saved but have since fallen away.

1) REPENTED of their sins, - (there is nothing to prevent the reprobate from falsely repenting)
2). exercised FAITH in God, - (there is nothing to prevent the reprobate from making a false profession of faith)
3). been BAPTIZED, - (there is nothing preventing a reprobate from being water baptised)
4). tasted the GIFT of God [see, John 4:10], - (there's nothing preventing a reprobate to have a free Church lunch)
5). been sharers in the HOLY SPIRIT and - (there is nothing to prevent the reprobate enjoying the benefits that professing believers enjoy)
6). partakers of the WORD of God- (there's nothing to prevent the reprobate from sitting through a sermon)

You never established from the text that this group of Hebrews WERE reprobates. You assumed it based on your own reading of Calvin and then tried to foist this idea on the text. Without proof you accuse them of being carnal cafeteria Christians. You keep forgetting that, while the author criticized them for not moving beyond the basics he NEVER said they were not true believers. In fact what he did say about them presents quite a different picture:
…33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward.…(Hebrews 10:33-35)

The text does not spell it out for you in Kindergarten terms, if you can't connect the dots it could be an indication that you don't have the gift of discernment.

You are sounding more and more like the Gnostics who believed they were enlightened and had superior understanding than the common Christian by virtue of some spiritual experience of enlightenment. In fact, they were guilty of the deeper sin of contempt. You describe the theology you learned from such men as John Calvin as the gift of discernment. Do you think the set of doctrines you believe are equivalent to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit's charismata

You don't even believe that faith is a gift, so it's no use appealing to Greek meanings while you deny this core bible doctrine.

I do not believe faith being a gift IS a core Bible doctrine and my reasons are based on understanding the Greek text especially Ephesians 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;"

A. That faith is NOT what is being called "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8 can be easily shown USING the very Greek language which you accuse me of denying.

B. Before I make my case let me first say that unlike the English language, Koine Greek nouns have Gender which can usually be determined by their spelling (except in the case of the relatively few irregular verbs)

C. To be clear, your claim is that the demonstrative pronoun THAT and GIFT are both referring to FAITH

D. Let us first look at a grammatical word-for-word break-down of this verse on the following site
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-8.htm#lexicon
E. Here we see that FAITH as well as GRACE are FEMININE words. Therefore, grammatically speaking, they could not be what is meant by THE GIFT OF GOD since GIFT is in the NEUTER GENDER
F. Greek scholar, A. T. Robertson resolves these issues:
and that (κα τουτο) is neuter, not feminine ταυτη, and so refers not to πιστις (feminine) or to χαρις (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εξ υμων, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (δωρον) and not the result of our work.
G. Conclusion: the claim that faith is given to us by God is incorrect. Instead, having faith is a choice we humans must make. The Holy Spirit then bears witness with our spirits that we are indeed children of God.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

“I can't agree with your view, because I'm saved but I'm still not free. I used to be a slave to sin and Satan, and now I'm a slave to righteousness and the Lord.”



ahhh you are using niv terminology …

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.

But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;

rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you see that they aren’t forced like slaves with no choice but they are bieng taught and instructed what to do and not to do ?


“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭NIV‬‬

You’re free but don’t become a slave again. …..

“I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness,

so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:19‬ ‭

Do you see the freedom to choose and pursue one or the other ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

god is holding us accountable for what we do whether good or bad ? But we were just soaves with no choice ? Why not just punish Satan for what he made us do ? Why punish the helpless fools who never had any stake or control in what they said or did ?

Wow is god gonna judge me for my deeds and words yet ….. all this time I thought I myself did wrong and should repent really that wasn’t my fault ….I’ve spent a lot of time thinking I’ve made some pretty big mistakes and bad choices in my 73 years but ….. it’s all the devil when I did bad and I can’t do good I’m incapable so then wow brother why is god going to hold us accountable as if we chose and did the evil and good ?

This doesn’t make any sense I begin not capable and yet an all knowing and merciful just god ……. Treats me as if I did these things willfully myself

““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,

and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Seems like choices and consequence

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We have to determine whether we are going to serve good or evil and then apply ourselves to the doctrine we’re taught believing it

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”


Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34-36‬ ‭NIV‬‬


Sons don’t operate like being elslaved against thier will thier free men and hiers who are called to grow up and live upright in his image

at he term servant works much better so we understand we’re choosing whether to serve good or evil we aren’t being forced against our Will

Thank you, brother, for this very honest post.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Sorry but your freedom is in the hands of your master. Humans have never been autonomous or free, we can't do what we want to do. We can only do as our nature and master dictate.

Everybody knows that things like murder, adultery, fornication, drunkenness/drug abuse, stealing, telling lies are wrong. But we still do these things, knowing they are wrong. We don't want to do them, but we can't stop doing them because the temptation is to do them is stronger than our so called "free will" is to not do them.

The Apostle Paul described the reality of human nature being in slavery to sin and Satan, in Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

As born again believers, we still wrestle against temptation, and it overcomes us regularly. We won't conquer our sin nature in this life, but we will receive our glorified sinless body in the life to come.

One thing we can do is admit our weaknesses, surrender and yield ourselves to Him. The Bible says we can yield ourselves to Christ: …12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. 13 Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:12-13)

We are first saved when we REPENT of our sins and put our FAITH in Him. Although the Holy Spirit is very involved in this process, we also have the power to RESIST and HARDEN OUR HEARTS, against the Spirit. This is why Paul warns us NOT to react that way. This in itself shows that His will is not irresistible.

At the same time, Paul proposed a way of overcoming sin by walking in the Spirit. I do not know HOW FAR a person can go in overcoming the Old Self. However, I reject the proposition that believers are nothing more than saved sinners. To a degree, it is important that we remember what we are APART from Him, as Jesus said

…4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
(John 15:4,5)

When the Lord called my wife to move across the state assuring us that we would find a new home and a ministry. We got in the car and started driving not knowing where we were going. Eventually made our way to this rural location and took up residence in a log cabin.

The population consisted primarily of lower income individuals many of whom had been sex addicts, drug addicts or occult practitioners. Others had mental illnesses. However, over time, one by one, many have taken tangible steps to abandon their sinful lifestyles. One encouraging sign is that they grew hungry to hear the word of God. In many ways, I find their way of life appalling but since God called us to be here we continue to bear witness to them of the Light of the gospel.

 

[Journey_man]

“I can't agree with your view, because I'm saved but I'm still not free. I used to be a slave to sin and Satan, and now I'm a slave to righteousness and the Lord.”



ahhh you are using niv terminology …

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.

But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;

rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you see that they aren’t forced like slaves with no choice but they are bieng taught and instructed what to do and not to do ?


“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭NIV‬‬

You’re free but don’t become a slave again. …..

“I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness,

so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:19‬ ‭

Do you see the freedom to choose and pursue one or the other ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

god is holding us accountable for what we do whether good or bad ? But we were just soaves with no choice ? Why not just punish Satan for what he made us do ? Why punish the helpless fools who never had any stake or control in what they said or did ?

Wow is god gonna judge me for my deeds and words yet ….. all this time I thought I myself did wrong and should repent really that wasn’t my fault ….I’ve spent a lot of time thinking I’ve made some pretty big mistakes and bad choices in my 73 years but ….. it’s all the devil when I did bad and I can’t do good I’m incapable so then wow brother why is god going to hold us accountable as if we chose and did the evil and good ?

This doesn’t make any sense I begin not capable and yet an all knowing and merciful just god ……. Treats me as if I did these things willfully myself

““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,

and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Seems like choices and consequence

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We have to determine whether we are going to serve good or evil and then apply ourselves to the doctrine we’re taught believing it

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”


Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34-36‬ ‭NIV‬‬


Sons don’t operate like being elslaved against thier will thier free men and hiers who are called to grow up and live upright in his image

at he term servant works much better so we understand we’re choosing whether to serve good or evil we aren’t being forced against our Will

None of that is true, because Gods Word reveals that saved people are still slaves.

Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Unlike yourself, I don't place my private opinion above Gods Word. Opinions are like noses, everybody has their own, so nobody needs yours. We need the truth and that is only found in the Lord.

You're not rejecting my opinion, you're rejecting Gods Word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

None of that is true, because Gods Word reveals that saved people are still slaves.

Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Unlike yourself, I don't place my private opinion above Gods Word. Opinions are like noses, everybody has their own, so nobody needs yours. We need the truth and that is only found in the Lord.

You're not rejecting my opinion, you're rejecting Gods Word.

None of those scriptures I shared that day were free and can choose ….are true ?

and if I don’t agree with you I’m rejecting not your opinion but Gods word ?

I think I’ll pass on this one

 

[Journey_man]

a. I notice how, in order to make the written words of the text agree with your false theological system you have to do some work on the text. One involves importing ideas and words and placing them with your own ideas and presuppositions. In this verse, rather than offer exegetical analysis you add your own term FALSELY in to the text
b. However, the BIBLE uses the word REPENTANCE not FALSE REPENTANCE
c. As to the foundational truths that had been taught to these people

I admit that it is sometimes it is difficult to find out exactly what did and did not happen given the various accounts. However, it cannot be denied that the Reformers sanctioned policies which led to the deaths of their doctrinal opponents such as the Anabaptists. Pretty much all the Reformers were in agreement about ridding their lands of the Jews through an organized program of persecution. Luther wrote down his plan of accomplishing this in his book "On the Jews and Their lies"
Having read this, I can only conclude that Luther was an violent Anti-Semite


You never established from the text that this group of Hebrews WERE reprobates. You assumed it based on your own reading of Calvin and then tried to foist this idea on the text. Without proof you accuse them of being carnal cafeteria Christians. You keep forgetting that, while the author criticized them for not moving beyond the basics he NEVER said they were not true believers. In fact what he did say about them presents quite a different picture:
…33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward.…(Hebrews 10:33-35)


You are sounding more and more like the Gnostics who believed they were enlightened and had superior understanding than the common Christian by virtue of some spiritual experience of enlightenment. In fact, they were guilty of the deeper sin of contempt. You describe the theology you learned from such men as John Calvin as the gift of discernment. Do you think the set of doctrines you believe are equivalent to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit's charismata


I do not believe faith being a gift IS a core Bible doctrine and my reasons are based on understanding the Greek text especially Ephesians 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;"

A. That faith is NOT what is being called "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8 can be easily shown USING the very Greek language which you accuse me of denying.

B. Before I make my case let me first say that unlike the English language, Koine Greek nouns have Gender which can usually be determined by their spelling (except in the case of the relatively few irregular verbs)

C. To be clear, your claim is that the demonstrative pronoun THAT and GIFT are both referring to FAITH

D. Let us first look at a grammatical word-for-word break-down of this verse on the following site
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-8.htm#lexicon
E. Here we see that FAITH as well as GRACE are FEMININE words. Therefore, grammatically speaking, they could not be what is meant by THE GIFT OF GOD since GIFT is in the NEUTER GENDER
F. Greek scholar, A. T. Robertson resolves these issues:
and that (κα τουτο) is neuter, not feminine ταυτη, and so refers not to πιστις (feminine) or to χαρις (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εξ υμων, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (δωρον) and not the result of our work.
G. Conclusion: the claim that faith is given to us by God is incorrect. Instead, having faith is a choice we humans must make. The Holy Spirit then bears witness with our spirits that we are indeed children of God.

I'm aware of the fact that Hebrews 6 doesn't include the word "false" when it refers to repentance, but you don't need to be a genius to know that their repentance was false. If it was true repentance, then they would not have fallen away and revealed that their repentance was indeed false.

I don't blame you for not believing Gods Word, regarding the Bible Doctrine of eternal security. I blame your pastor, because he failed to teach you the truth of the gospel. He obviously doesn't know the truth either so it's a case of the blind leading the blind.

I'm not interested in the personal short comings, of people like Martin Luther. I know that Gods people are not perfect, we still sin and commit murder and adultery and every other kind of sin. But that doesn't stop us from proclaiming the truth of the gospel, so the the truth of the gospel is not dependant on our righteousness but it is based on the Lord's righteousness.

I didn't make any assumptions regarding Hebrews 6, I simply accepted the fact that those being described were not true believers, because the Bible teaches that it's impossible for true believers to fall away. I'm not sure why you reject what the Bible says plainly.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

I'm aware of the fact that Hebrews 6 doesn't include the word "false" when it refers to repentance, but you don't need to be a genius to know that their repentance was false. If it was true repentance, then they would not have fallen away and revealed that their repentance was indeed false.

I don't blame you for not believing Gods Word, regarding the Bible Doctrine of eternal security. I blame your pastor, because he failed to teach you the truth of the gospel. He obviously doesn't know the truth either so it's a case of the blind leading the blind.

I'm not interested in the personal short comings, of people like Martin Luther. I know that Gods people are not perfect, we still sin and commit murder and adultery and every other kind of sin. But that doesn't stop us from proclaiming the truth of the gospel, so the the truth of the gospel is not dependant on our righteousness but it is based on the Lord's righteousness.

I didn't make any assumptions regarding Hebrews 6, I simply accepted the fact that those being described were not true believers, because the Bible teaches that it's impossible for true believers to fall away. I'm not sure why you reject what the Bible says plainly.

God's people are not murderers or adulterers. (KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

(KJV Revelation 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

 

[Cameron143]

David was a murderer and adulterer.

Moses was a murderer.

Paul was a murderer.

Abraham was a liar.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you, brother, for this very honest post

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


…..And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38, 46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word,

and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Journey_man]

God's people are not murderers or adulterers. (KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

(KJV Revelation 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

OK, so you believe that God contradicts Himself and we can't trust His Word.

I strongly disagree with your opinion, because God declares that a murder and adulterer (David) is a man after His own heart. You should never pit Gods Word against Gods Word, in order to proclaim your false message.

Acts 13:22: "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'" (spoken by Paul in his sermon at Antioch.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

OK, so you believe that God contradicts Himself and we can't trust His Word.

I strongly disagree with your opinion, because God declares that a murder and adulterer (David) is a man after His own heart. You should never pit Gods Word against Gods Word, in order to proclaim your false message.

Acts 13:22: "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'" (spoken by Paul in his sermon at Antioch.

I do believe God's Word can be trusted. David repented before God and was forgiven. (KJV 2 Samuel 12:13) "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8 are true. Adulterers and murderers are not God's people and they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I'm aware of the fact that Hebrews 6 doesn't include the word "false" when it refers to repentance, but you don't need to be a genius to know that their repentance was false. If it was true repentance, then they would not have fallen away and revealed that their repentance was indeed false.

A. They did NOT FALL AWAY, genius. The author was only warning them about the DANGERS of falling away. He never said they had done so already or that they would. In fact, he was careful to add that, although he had warned them in this way he expected better things of them - things concerning salvation. Is it not possible to caution your son about the dangers of driving recklessly without it being a dire prediction that he is certain to have a fatal accident?

B. Further warnings about falling away or departing from the faith or apostatizing can be found elsewhere both in Hebrews as well as in other passages of the Bible. The definition of apostasy which is the act of abandoning or renouncing one's faith, in the context of Christianity. You have attempted to nullify the warning by positing that the people who were being addressed in this book were NEVER TRUE converts. However, taking the description of them is taken as it is written it is unmistakable that they were.

C. For your assumption about them to be true you have to do considerable re-engineering of the passage.
The word once [ἅπαξ] as in ONCE ENLIGHTENED refers to a specific point in their history when the light of the gospel first entered their hearts received light. Though you try to make this about the light of universal moral consciousness, that knowledge is not necessarily a one-time event. Furthermore, had these Hebrews not been born again why would the author urge them to leave behind the elementary teachings of the faith. Are people who have never been born again ready to go on to maturity?

D. You also gloss over many of their characteristics by appending your own imaginative scenarios to the text For instance, when the Bible says they had tasted the heavenly gift you define tasted as something like sampling a small amount. Just how does an unsaved person go about sampling the Holy Spirit? Surely you know that the word taste can refer to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE rather than merely observing something happening to someone else from a distance, When the Bible says Jesus tasted death for every man did it mean he got close enough to death to get an idea about what it is like or did He actually experience it?

The word It is a serious concern as it involves a deliberate turning away from the truth of the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus Christ.




It seems to me that when the Author speaks about whether a foundational truth has been lain in a person's life he was not just talking their learning abstract ideas. He is speaking about whether a divine truth has been implanted on the bedrock of their souls.
1. Repentance is not about just having some minor regrets about having sinned. It means feeling a godly sorrow that is great enough to persuade us to turn AWAY from our self-centered way of life.
2. Faith, which is the other side of this process, turns us towards Christ for help and deliverance
3.

I don't blame you for not believing Gods Word, regarding the Bible Doctrine of eternal security. I blame your pastor, because he failed to teach you the truth of the gospel. He obviously doesn't know the truth either so it's a case of the blind leading the blind.

I'm not interested in the personal short comings, of people like Martin Luther. I know that Gods people are not perfect, we still sin and commit murder and adultery and every other kind of sin. But that doesn't stop us from proclaiming the truth of the gospel, so the the truth of the gospel is not dependant on our righteousness but it is based on the Lord's righteousness.

I didn't make any assumptions regarding Hebrews 6, I simply accepted the fact that those being described were not true believers, because the Bible teaches that it's impossible for true believers to fall away. I'm not sure why you reject what the Bible says plainly.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I don't blame you for not believing Gods Word, regarding the Bible Doctrine of eternal security. I blame your pastor, because he failed to teach you the truth of the gospel. He obviously doesn't know the truth either so it's a case of the blind leading the blind.

You seem think I got everything I believe from my pastor. No, as a matter of fact, I rejected Calvinism back when I was a teen because it seemed contradictory. You seem to have the mentality that people know nothing unless a Pastor teaches them. Perhaps this is the way you wish it were. I do not consider Calvin's view of salvation to be "good news." It sounds more like a raffle in which the tickets have already been distributed and losers have already been chosen. As for your doctrine of eternal security - no one in the Early Church believed in a salvation that could be neither chosen or lost.

I'm not interested in the personal short comings, of people like Martin Luther. I know that Gods people are not perfect, we still sin and commit murder and adultery and every other kind of sin. But that doesn't stop us from proclaiming the truth of the gospel, so the the truth of the gospel is not dependant on our righteousness but it is based on the Lord's righteousness.

The Bible makes it very clear that we must abide, remain, continue the relationship we have with the Vine who is Jesus Christ. This is not about performing meritorious works. It is about faith, love and obedience as the Holy Spirit continues to enable us. Jesus also warned us about the dangers of not continuing. Walking by FAITH is a walk of depending on Him.

I didn't make any assumptions regarding Hebrews 6, I simply accepted the fact that those being described were not true believers,

Your statement that they were not true believers IS ITSELF the ASSUMPTION you made from the outset of our discussion. You made this assumption on the basis of the presuppositions you learned from Augustine, Calvin and Luther. Can you not see this? Your habit of imposing your own words INTO the texts shows that you do not accept it as it is written,

because the Bible teaches that it's impossible for true believers to fall away. I'm not sure why you reject what the Bible says plainly.

Let us stay focused on Hebrews 6 for a bit. The passage never says it is impossible for true believers to fall away. The author's purpose was never to make a comparison between true and false believers. He was giving a warning to believers not to fall away. What was impossible is for someone who has fallen away completely (in the manner he describes) to be restored to through repentance.

At some point, you tried to make the argument that the phrase IF THEY FALL AWAY introduces a contrary to fact hypothetical (something like that) However, although the KJV uses the phrase
IF they shall fall away in Hebrews 6:6 the original Greek text does not. Instead it says:
6 AND THEN have fallen away— to be restored to repentance. The word and then is the Greek conjunction καὶ

Hebrews 6:6 Greek Text Analysis