Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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The logic is “backwards” only in the sense that your model treats filling as a fluctuating substance‑level, whereas the apostles treat it as a fluctuating submission‑level; so yes, like a photographic negative, your pattern resembles the truth while inverting the causal direction.
Scripture never teaches that a believer sins while Spirit‑filled because “filled” means yielded, governed, directed—a state incompatible with active rebellion (Gal 5:16). But Scripture also never teaches that sin ejects the Spirit or drains Him like fluid; indwelling is permanent (Rom 8:9), and filling is relational, not volumetric.
Both indwelling and filling involve human cooperation, but not in the same way: indwelling is received once by faith, filling is ongoing obedience. Fellowship is restored not by “refilling” but by relational realignment—confession (1 John 1:9) removes the obstruction, and the Spirit resumes His governing influence. The apostles never describe this as a “refill,” only as returning to walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:25). So yes, “level” and “degree” are metaphors, but the biblical reality they point to is the Spirit’s active governance, not His quantitative presence.

I agree that the best description of the dynamic regarding sinning while Spirit-indwelt is relational.
Yes, Spirit-filling is logically and relationally incompatible with actual sinning.
Yes, both the beginning and the continuation of the relationship requires voluntary cooperation. (It takes two to tango.)
I like it much better when you speak like a mfwer than when you revert to tulip talk.
:love:
 
I agree that the best description of the dynamic regarding sinning while Spirit-indwelt is relational.
Yes, Spirit-filling is logically and relationally incompatible with actual sinning.
Yes, both the beginning and the continuation of the relationship requires voluntary cooperation. (It takes two to tango.)
I like it much better when you speak like a mfwer than when you revert to tulip talk.
:love:
I like it much better when you agree to scripture rather than your own understanding😍
lol, I love you brother, hope your day is well thus far.
 
I like it much better when you agree to scripture rather than your own understanding😍
lol, I love you brother, hope your day is well thus far.

Ditto assuming your tulipism is transitory. If it is permanent, then my recent insight is that
the bro part may still be apt if your heresy is truly unintentional straw (per 1Cor. 3:14-15).
I am still in the dark today.
 
Ditto assuming your tulipism is transitory. If it is permanent, then my recent insight is that
the bro part may still be apt if your heresy is truly unintentional straw (per 1Cor. 3:14-15).
I am still in the dark today.
I’ve already made my position clear: scripture, and scripture alone. If it’s not in there, I don’t agree; if it is, I have to yield to it no matter my own ideas or feelings. Sometimes I might agree with you on certain points, but that doesn’t always mean we’re right according to scripture. In the end, for me, scripture is the authority—not me.
 
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How do you graft Rom. 7:14-24 onto your understanding?

Paul is describing the state of sanctification and concludes its not Him doing the sinning anymore, but sin dwelling in him doing it. This is that separation from the sinful nature.

In this scripture, the Greek uses a military term. There are 3 entities, in this situation Paul is describing. The Holy spirit and satan are engaged in trench warfare over our souls. We are merely onlookers with the only choice who we choose to give power to.

Paul concludes in this state, when he does what he does not want to do, it's not him doing it but sin dwelling in doing it.
Paul is describing being at war with himself, not Satan.
 
My experience with witnessing to atheists has been the same.
I am unaware of having any better luck with tulipists on CC.

I persevere in plugging away, hoping to influence folks the right way,
but my testimony is boring, having been raised by Christian parents,
so atheists could say of course I am a Christian. I wish I could share
with them what I call the Propensity Principle in this thread.

Thus, I empathize with Jesus in Matt. 13:14-15 and Paul in Acts 28:26-27.
So yes, let us keep on doing good and encouraging each other (Heb. 10:24-25).
Keep following the Lord's lead and believe that someone might be helped along the way. :)
 
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I’ve already made my position clear: scripture, and scripture alone. If it’s not in there, I don’t agree; if it is, I have to yield to it no matter my own ideas or feelings. Sometimes I might agree with you on certain points, but that doesn’t always mean we’re right according to scripture. In the end, for me, scripture is the authority—not me.

God is the Authority, and Scripture inspired by His Spirit is our guide (John 16:13), which often needs to be harmonized.
If something is not specified in Scripture, then we must use divine logic, testing whether it is good (1Thes. 5:19-21).
Yes, sometimes we agree, and sometimes we may be wrong.
We cannot avoid walking by faith (2Cor. 5:17), we ought to walk in spiritual unity regarding the essential Gospel,
and mature Christians do so (Eph. 4:11-13).
 
God is the Authority, and Scripture inspired by His Spirit is our guide (John 16:13), which often needs to be harmonized.
If something is not specified in Scripture, then we must use divine logic, testing whether it is good (1Thes. 5:19-21).
Yes, sometimes we agree, and sometimes we may be wrong.
We cannot avoid walking by faith (2Cor. 5:17), we ought to walk in spiritual unity regarding the essential Gospel,
and mature Christians do so (Eph. 4:11-13).
Yes, we walk by faith (2 Cor 5:7), and yes, unity in the Gospel is essential (Eph 4:11–13), but faith and unity come from submitting to revelation, not supplementing it with private insight. The Spirit tests all things (1 Thess 5:21), but He never adds to Scripture; He only illumines what is written.
 
Yes, we walk by faith (2 Cor 5:7), and yes, unity in the Gospel is essential (Eph 4:11–13), but faith and unity come from submitting to revelation, not supplementing it with private insight. The Spirit tests all things (1 Thess 5:21), but He never adds to Scripture; He only illumines what is written.

Regarding what Scripture does not reveal, Spirit-given insight must be sought.
The Spirit both illumines Scripture and may supplement with para-Biblical insights where Scripture is silent.
 
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That is a wonderful ministry! My wife and I also have been supporting our local Salvation Army financially for many years as well as a local mission for the homeless and a relative who was homeless because of being a paranoid schizophrenic but yet is a devout Christian in his saner moments.

Knowing what I know now about the SA, I would stay clear of them. But even in the hidden money making machines, God can bring forth miracles.

I always had the mindset, that if just one single person made the connection with God, it would be a game changer. After 6 years and over 250 people going through the the housing, I don't think that one person made that special connection.

Over half made the covenant contract with God, but as far as I know, none fulfilled that important second part of faith, living a life inspired by such surrender.

All 250 came through the process. I watched each and every one very carefully to see if they had the tiniest attraction to what was going on around them. An inevitable sign of one being drawn by the Father. Only a few would fit that requirement. Lots of great success stories, but that's not why we were doing it. Not seeing the desired product ever produced, i considered it a complete failure on my part.

One good part is my wife stood with me the whole time never questioning what we were doing once.
 
Knowing what I know now about the SA, I would stay clear of them. But even in the hidden money making machines, God can bring forth miracles.

I always had the mindset, that if just one single person made the connection with God, it would be a game changer. After 6 years and over 250 people going through the the housing, I don't think that one person made that special connection.

Over half made the covenant contract with God, but as far as I know, none fulfilled that important second part of faith, living a life inspired by such surrender.

All 250 came through the process. I watched each and every one very carefully to see if they had the tiniest attraction to what was going on around them. An inevitable sign of one being drawn by the Father. Only a few would fit that requirement. Lots of great success stories, but that's not why we were doing it. Not seeing the desired product ever produced, i considered it a complete failure on my part.

One good part is my wife stood with me the whole time never questioning what we were doing once.

And therein is the answer. Your wife stood with you! It was something you did together to the betterment of others. And that is your blessing.

And while so many drift apart for their own personal interests, you were working together. And while it did not produce the results you desired, it produced something much more valuable. So it was not a loss but a gain.

And remember the seeds were planted. You may not have seen the growth, but it is there. The impact is there. Especially in your life to the good. Thank you, and great blessings to you.
 
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Knowing what I know now about the SA, I would stay clear of them. But even in the hidden money making machines, God can bring forth miracles.

I always had the mindset, that if just one single person made the connection with God, it would be a game changer. After 6 years and over 250 people going through the the housing, I don't think that one person made that special connection.

Over half made the covenant contract with God, but as far as I know, none fulfilled that important second part of faith, living a life inspired by such surrender.

All 250 came through the process. I watched each and every one very carefully to see if they had the tiniest attraction to what was going on around them. An inevitable sign of one being drawn by the Father. Only a few would fit that requirement. Lots of great success stories, but that's not why we were doing it. Not seeing the desired product ever produced, i considered it a complete failure on my part.

One good part is my wife stood with me the whole time never questioning what we were doing once.

Your story is akin to that of my best friend and his wife, who opened their home to those needing temporary housing because of various circumstances, but then they switched to fostering dogs. PTL for faithful wives! 🐶
 
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If my daughter came to me and said she had doubts about the veracity of the Bible and whether Or not God was real, My first answer would be, “ if you can answer me 3 questions, then I might consider joining you.”

First question: “ How do you explain the fulfillment of PROPHECY in the Bible? There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus alone—many proven to be written 100’s of years before He was born. All were fulfilled. Explain how that is possible without divine influence. Fullfilled prophecy proves the Bible is truly a divine book.

/Second, How do you explain the EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY? Eyewitnesses are still the strongest, most reliable testimony in our courts today. It’s almost impossible to refute “eyewitness testimony” in courts. Add to that the fact that those eyewitnesses were willing to DIE horrible deaths instead of recanting and living. No one that I have ever heard of is willing to give his life for a lie! Eyewitness testimony proclaims Jesus was truly divine, THE SON of God.

Third, how do you explain the EMPTY TOMB?
For 2000 years no one has ever been able to prove what happened to the body of Jesus. The Bible claims He was resurrected 3 days after His crucifixion. The eyewitnesses say they SAW Him, HEARD him, TOUCHED Him. After his crucifixion. The empty tomb stands as proof that He did indeed come back to life—was resurrected—just 3 days after He was murdered.

If you can answer these 3 questions, you will have done what no one else has been able to do for 2000 years. Until then, I have to believe God is real, Jesus is who He said He was, and the Bible is their book.
 
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Your story is akin to that of my best friend and his wife, who opened their home to those needing temporary housing because of various circumstances, but then they switched to fostering dogs. PTL for faithful wives! 🐶

Dogs would be much easier. Man the stories I could tell you.
 
And therein is the answer. Your wife stood with you! It was something you did together to the betterment of others. And that is your blessing.

And while so many drift apart for their own personal interests, you were working together. And while it did not produce the results you desired, it produced something much more valuable. So it was not a loss but a gain.

And remember the seeds were planted. You may not have seen the growth, but it is there. The impact is there. Especially in your life to the good. Thank you, and great blessings to you.

That included her not batting an eye when I suggested we rent out our house and move into the hood where the 7 halfway houses were.
We've both had 2 major surgeries this year, and her dementia is accelerating.

Word to the wise, when God says He scourges those He loves, buckle those seat belts tight.
 
That included her not batting an eye when I suggested we rent out our house and move into the hood where the 7 halfway houses were.
We've both had 2 major surgeries this year, and her dementia is accelerating.

Word to the wise, when God says He scourges those He loves, buckle those seat belts tight.

W,
great blessing to you and your wife. May the Peace of our Great God be upon you both.
 
Word to the wise, when God says He scourges those He loves, buckle those seat belts tight.

Do you believe God did bad things to your body to cause you to need surgery and He caused your wife to have dementia???

You should check out what Jesus said in John 10:10 because it's the devil that steals, kills, and destroys not the Lord.
And you should check out James 1:13-15 which tells us God is not testing any man with evil

For those that believe sickness and disease is a blessing from the Lord, then WHY are you going to the doctor to try and get better? That would be being disobedient if you really thought God put these things on you.

If He put these things on you then lay down and accept it and stop belly achin about it.