Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I believe that God indeed orchestrates what is going to happen but not necessarily with a specific person. God ordered Elijah to anoint King Jehu as King but refused and then later God had Elisha fulfill it. There's several examples in the Bible like this.

Had Jonah not repented there's nothing that states God would have still made Jonah do it or just pick someone else.

Right. God can always find someone else who will do His work if the first doesn't.

Esther 4:14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?”

 

[Genez]

Right. God can always find someone else who will do His work if the first doesn't.

Esther 4:14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?”

There can be an element present of wanting to do God's will while not wanting to do it.

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Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but yours be done."​

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We must be placed into situations bigger than we are naturally capable of handling so that He must have them accomplished by His power of grace.

He gets the glory as He is glorified through them.
We get the growth and blessing in what is learned from what takes place.

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But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of eternity! 2 Peter 3:18​

The cross was an all-encompassing state of agonization for Him.

Not so much because of the physical pain .
But because of the excruciating agony of finding his soul being thrust into separation from the Father.

For he was forsaken by God as a result of coming into contact with and bearing of our sins.

In the meanwhile...

You said, "God can always find someone else who will do His work if the first doesn't."

Jesus was the one unique exception!
Without Him no one could be saved!

Grace and peace.....

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[lrs68]

If you would work through the question I asked, you would see why Jonah, in fact, did go

Where does God's foreknowledge come from?

God's foreknowledge was the same for Jonah as it was when Elijah disobeyed God and ultimately Elisha fulfilled the Command by God.

There's no question about foreknowledge. There's only the question about even should you reject God someone else will obey. So it's not about God getting what He wants accomplished. It's ultimately about did the person God instruct do it because they have the Will to choose or did someone else do it because their Will decided to.

 

[lrs68]

Right. God can always find someone else who will do His work if the first doesn't.

Esther 4:14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?”

Amen!

 

[Cameron143]

God's foreknowledge was the same for Jonah as it was when Elijah disobeyed God and ultimately Elisha fulfilled the Command by God.

There's no question about foreknowledge. There's only the question about even should you reject God someone else will obey. So it's not about God getting what He wants accomplished. It's ultimately about did the person God instruct do it because they have the Will to choose or did someone else do it because their Will decided to.

I'm trying to show you that more is transpiring than your understanding accounts for. While what you are saying is true, it's not the extent of truth on the subject. With this in mind, would you like to understand more than you currently do?

 

[Genez]

I'm trying to show you that more is transpiring than your understanding accounts for. While what you are saying is true, it's not the extent of truth on the subject. With this in mind, would you like to understand more than you currently do?

And? Would you like to know more than you currently think you do?

 

[lrs68]

I'm trying to show you that more is transpiring than your understanding accounts for. While what you are saying is true, it's not the extent of truth on the subject. With this in mind, would you like to understand more than you currently do?

I'm well aware that you're stating the fact that God has set into motion a series of events that includes whether the first person or next eventually fulfills the ultimate Will of God. Basically, God knows that if person A chooses to not complete the task it's part of process that God knew would happen and require person B or C or Whomever to step into position and fulfill God's Will.
His Will is going to get done with or without those who choose to reject because it's part of the Plan so the person that does obey receives the Blessing.

 

[Genez]

I'm well aware that you're stating the fact that God has set into motion a series of events that includes whether the first person or next eventually fulfills the ultimate Will of God. Basically, God knows that if person A chooses to not complete the task it's part of process that God knew would happen and require person B or C or Whomever to step into position and fulfill God's Will.
His Will is going to get done with or without those who choose to reject because it's part of the Plan so the person that does obey receives the Blessing.

God uses what God already knows could and would happen.
He wants to include us in being a part of his plan to work out what He knows will happen for His glory.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm well aware that you're stating the fact that God has set into motion a series of events that includes whether the first person or next eventually fulfills the ultimate Will of God. Basically, God knows that if person A chooses to not complete the task it's part of process that God knew would happen and require person B or C or Whomever to step into position and fulfill God's Will.
His Will is going to get done with or without those who choose to reject because it's part of the Plan so the person that does obey receives the Blessing.

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I agree with both your 1st two sentences, but I do not equate the two. Foreknowledge is different than predestination.

Can you read Ephesians 1:11 and tell me how you understand the phrase "Who works all things after the counsel of His own will"?

 

[Cameron143]

And? Would you like to know more than you currently think you do?

Of course. I just don't believe you are qualified to do so.

 

[lrs68]

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I agree with both your 1st two sentences, but I do not equate the two. Foreknowledge is different than predestination.

Can you read Ephesians 1:11 and tell me how you understand the phrase "Who works all things after the counsel of His own will"?

Working all things after the counsel of His own will can include being rejected but still knowing that someone else will complete the task.

 

[Cameron143]

Working all things after the counsel of His own will can include being rejected but still knowing that someone else will complete the task.

Sure, it can include lots of things. But relating the counsel of God's own will to the choices of men misses the point of the verse. The verse speaks of the activity of God apart from the activity of man, and even in spite of the activity of man.

You seem to have God reacting to the activity of man or in response to what He knows. I'm saying things work out as they do because God is actively engaged and directing the affairs of man.

This is why I believe I introduced Daniel 7. The chapter teaches that God acted and 4 successive kingdoms came into being. Those kingdoms were characterized by certain attributes using symbolism. But God wasn't reacting to what He knew would characterize those kingdoms. He created those kingdoms to be as they were. He wasn't operating according to foreknowledge. He was actively creating things to work according to the counsel of His own will. In other words, He created them as He did to fulfill His purposes.

 

[lrs68]

Sure, it can include lots of things. But relating the counsel of God's own will to the choices of men misses the point of the verse. The verse speaks of the activity of God apart from the activity of man, and even in spite of the activity of man.

You seem to have God reacting to the activity of man or in response to what He knows. I'm saying things work out as they do because God is actively engaged and directing the affairs of man.

This is why I believe I introduced Daniel 7. The chapter teaches that God acted and 4 successive kingdoms came into being. Those kingdoms were characterized by certain attributes using symbolism. But God wasn't reacting to what He knew would characterize those kingdoms. He created those kingdoms to be as they were. He wasn't operating according to foreknowledge. He was actively creating things to work according to the counsel of His own will. In other words, He created them as He did to fulfill His purposes.

I'm including that God's Will includes how it is fulfilled. And knowing that God told Elijah to anoint a king He knew Elijah would reject Him. Meaning He knew He would then go to Elisha to anoint the king. And that entire process was part of fulfilling God's Will.

 

[Genez]

Of course. I just don't believe you are qualified to do so.

God has not given me that cross to bear.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm including that God's Will includes how it is fulfilled. And knowing that God told Elijah to anoint a king He knew Elijah would reject Him. Meaning He knew He would then go to Elisha to anoint the king. And that entire process was part of fulfilling God's Will.

Again, I agree with what you say here. All true. But your reasoning for things working out as they did was God knowing how things would turn out. In other words, His foreknowledge. And I'm saying it's more than that. In other words, God didn't act in response to Elijah's response, but actively brought about Elijah's response, as well as Elisha's response. That's what Ephesians 1:11 is teaching.

He also does this without violating the will of either, but it will be impossible to get to this point if we are still in disagreement on the first point.

 

[Cameron143]

God has not given me that cross to bear.

And yet, you don't seem able to obey.

 

[Genez]

And yet, you don't seem able to obey.

Odd... That would mean I am qualified to do so.

 

[Cameron143]

Odd... That would mean I am qualified to do so.

No. It means you are disobedient and don't speak as one having authority.

 

[Genez]

No. It means you are disobedient and don't speak as one having authority.

Lord?

How do I get out of this time machine?

..................... I am tired of being ten years old again...

......

 

[lrs68]

Again, I agree with what you say here. All true. But your reasoning for things working out as they did was God knowing how things would turn out. In other words, His foreknowledge. And I'm saying it's more than that. In other words, God didn't act in response to Elijah's response, but actively brought about Elijah's response, as well as Elisha's response. That's what Ephesians 1:11 is teaching.

He also does this without violating the will of either, but it will be impossible to get to this point if we are still in disagreement on the first point.

God didn't let David build the Temple but had Solomon in mind. In David's obedience he gathered all of the materials for Solomon. But it's intriguing to think God made Elijah reject Him in favor for Elisha to anoint the king. Anything is possible. But thinking that rejecting God is actually obeying God is a different sort of nuance to consider.