looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[Davidstarr]

You aren't being consistent with your post 170.

Then you have misunderstood what I have been saying.

"Sin is the transgression of the law" I John 3:4 Plain and simple. Break the law you commit sin.
"By the law is the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:20 Without the law fallen man cannot even know what sin is.
"Where no law is there can be no transgression" Rom 4:15 Plain enough for what it states.

These texts are unmistakable. There can be no sin unless there is a specific God-given law concerning it.

We know Cain sinned. First by offering the wrong sacrifice to God. Then by killing his brother.
But where does the bible state God told him not to do those things?
If God did not then how were those things sins? They could not be.
Just because the bible does not say God told Cain not to kill does not mean Cain was not told......

What law prohibited the sins committed by the antediluvian world?
Obviously we know they were evil but where is the biblical record given from Eden to the flood of such laws?
Again, if there is no law there is no transgression.
There MUST have been a law even though the bible does not record it.
Otherwise God nearly destroyed the human race for no reason at all.

People claim there is no biblical record of any law given between creation up to the Exodus concerning any humans keeping the sabbath day.
Is not proof that the sabbath was not observed by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

 

[Churchgoer]

Then you have misunderstood what I have been saying.

"Sin is the transgression of the law" I John 3:4 Plain and simple. Break the law you commit sin.
"By the law is the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:20 Without the law fallen man cannot even know what sin is.
"Where no law is there can be no transgression" Rom 4:15 Plain enough for what it states.

These texts are unmistakable. There can be no sin unless there is a specific God-given law concerning it.

We know Cain sinned. First by offering the wrong sacrifice to God. Then by killing his brother.
But where does the bible state God told him not to do those things?
If God did not then how were those things sins? They could not be.
Just because the bible does not say God told Cain not to kill does not mean Cain was not told......

What law prohibited the sins committed by the antediluvian world?
Obviously we know they were evil but where is the biblical record given from Eden to the flood of such laws?
Again, if there is no law there is no transgression.
There MUST have been a law even though the bible does not record it.
Otherwise God nearly destroyed the human race for no reason at all.

People claim there is no biblical record of any law given between creation up to the Exodus concerning any humans keeping the sabbath day.
Is not proof that the sabbath was not observed by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Correct, can't proof either way.

 

[Davidstarr]

Constantine instituted a seven day week and Rome could never observe a sabbath day before 321 AD.

You have probably been told that everyone obeyed the sabbath day but Constantine changed that.

That is a blatant lie.

The book of Acts alone shows over 80 different WEEKLY 7th day sabbaths kept by the early Christians. Both Jews and Gentiles alike.
That's not what anyone has "told" me. It's what the bible says.
You call it a blatant lie....

I offered to show you a list of the 10 commandments fully known and endorsed by the apostles in the NT but you ignored me.
Obviously you wish to remain ignorant on the subject.
No one can stop you from stepping off a cliff if you refuse to take off your blind fold.

BTW Constantine's Sunday law in 321 AD did NOT prohibit keeping the 7th day sabbath....

 

[Churchgoer]

Then you have misunderstood what I have been saying.

"Sin is the transgression of the law" I John 3:4 Plain and simple. Break the law you commit sin.
"By the law is the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:20 Without the law fallen man cannot even know what sin is.
"Where no law is there can be no transgression" Rom 4:15 Plain enough for what it states.

These texts are unmistakable. There can be no sin unless there is a specific God-given law concerning it.

We know Cain sinned. First by offering the wrong sacrifice to God. Then by killing his brother.
But where does the bible state God told him not to do those things?
If God did not then how were those things sins? They could not be.
Just because the bible does not say God told Cain not to kill does not mean Cain was not told......

What law prohibited the sins committed by the antediluvian world?
Obviously we know they were evil but where is the biblical record given from Eden to the flood of such laws?
Again, if there is no law there is no transgression.
There MUST have been a law even though the bible does not record it.
Otherwise God nearly destroyed the human race for no reason at all.

People claim there is no biblical record of any law given between creation up to the Exodus concerning any humans keeping the sabbath day.
Is not proof that the sabbath was not observed by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Before exodus, marring sister was allowed too. .
Before flood, not allowed to eat meat.

 

[Davidstarr]

Correct, can't proof either way.

But we do know it was instituted the first week of creation.
We know it was made for mankind. Not just for the Jews
We know Adam (AKA "the first man") was made on day 6 the sabbath made on day 7.
So who was the sabbath made for?
Adam of course.
Yet people claim he never kept it because the bible has no record of it?

 

[Churchgoer]

But we do know it was instituted the first week of creation.
We know it was made for mankind. Not just for the Jews
We know Adam (AKA "the first man") was made on day 6 the sabbath made on day 7.
So who was the sabbath made for?
Adam of course.
Yet people claim he never kept it because the bible has no record of it?

My point is we are not sure manna day 1 is in sync with creation day 1.

When I get to heaven, everyday will be sabbath in the Lord.
Before sin, every day was sabbath in the Lord.

 

[Davidstarr]

My point is we are not sure manna day 1 is in sync with creation day 1.

When I get to heaven, everyday will be sabbath in the Lord.
Before sin, every day was sabbath in the Lord.

It doesn't matter. The text does not say "on the 7th day from the day manna first fell".
But Moses was shown to instruct the people to observe the 7th day sabbath.
Manna could have started on day 3, 4, 5, whenever.
That would not change to order of the days of the week.

 

[Churchgoer]

It doesn't matter. The text does not say "on the 7th day from the day manna first fell".
But Moses was shown to instruct the people to observe the 7th day sabbath.
Manna could have started on day 3, 4, 5, whenever.
That would not change to order of the days of the week.

We are not sure Saturday this week is in sync with creation week day 7.

 

[Churchgoer]

We are not sure Saturday this week is in sync with creation week day 7.

Hebrew count by 7.
sheba or shibah: seven, seventh, seven times

 

[Davidstarr]

We are not sure Saturday this week is in sync with creation week day 7.

If it had changed from Creation to Moses then God would have put the days of the week back in order at Mt. Sinai.
There's no biblical record that it changed from Moses to Jesus. In fact the records show Jesus AND His followers kept the sabbath up into the book of Acts. AND the Jewish people were pretty strict about keeping the order of the days correct since Moses' time.
So the 7th day sabbath remains confirmed from creation to Jesus.
Historical records show no change in the weekly cycle from Jesus up to now.
Yes there have been changes in the calendar (from the Julian to Gregorian is but one example) but no change in the weekly cycle.
Sunday (what we call Sunday now) has always been the 1st day of the week. Monday has always followed Sunday, etc.
What we call Saturday today has always been the 7th day of the week even when it wasn't actually called Saturday.

 

[Churchgoer]

If it had changed from Creation to Moses then God would have put the days of the week back in order at Mt. Sinai.

Proof?

There's no biblical record that it changed from Moses to Jesus. In fact the records show Jesus AND His followers kept the sabbath up into the book of Acts. AND the Jewish people were pretty strict about keeping the order of the days correct since Moses' time.
So the 7th day sabbath remains confirmed from creation to Jesus.
Historical records show no change in the weekly cycle from Jesus up to now.
Yes there have been changes in the calendar (from the Julian to Gregorian is but one example) but no change in the weekly cycle.
Sunday (what we call Sunday now) has always been the 1st day of the week. Monday has always followed Sunday, etc.
What we call Saturday today has always been the 7th day of the week even when it wasn't actually called Saturday.

 

[Inquisitor]

The book of Acts alone shows over 80 different WEEKLY 7th day sabbaths kept by the early Christians. Both Jews and Gentiles alike.
That's not what anyone has "told" me. It's what the bible says.
You call it a blatant lie....

I offered to show you a list of the 10 commandments fully known and endorsed by the apostles in the NT but you ignored me.
Obviously you wish to remain ignorant on the subject.
No one can stop you from stepping off a cliff if you refuse to take off your blind fold.

BTW Constantine's Sunday law in 321 AD did NOT prohibit keeping the 7th day sabbath....

The word "Sabbath" is mentioned 9 to 10 times across distinct verses in the book of Acts, though Bible scholars debate the exact count depending on textual variants and whether repetitive weekly references (like Paul reasoning in the synagogue over multiple weeks) are factored in. [1, 2, 3]

Key Sabbath Verses in Acts

• • Acts 13:14 – Paul and his companions go to the synagogue on the Sabbath.
  • Acts 13:27 – The Sabbath readings of the prophets are mentioned.
  • Acts 13:42 – The people invite Paul to speak more on the next Sabbath.
  • Acts 13:44 – Almost the whole city gathers on the next Sabbath.
  • Acts 15:21 – Moses has been preached in the synagogues every Sabbath for generations.
  • Acts 16:13 – Paul goes outside the gate to a riverside place of prayer on the Sabbath.
  • Acts 17:2 – Paul reasons with people in the synagogue for three Sabbath days.
  • Acts 18:4 – Paul reasons in the synagogue every Sabbath. [1, 2]

(Note: While some specific denominational groups calculate the practical observance or recurring mentions as upwards of 84 or 85 instances based on implied weekly continuity, the literal noun appears in about 9 distinct scriptural locations.)

 

[Inquisitor]

You call it a blatant lie....

I offered to show you a list of the 10 commandments fully known and endorsed by the apostles in the NT but you ignored me.

Show me where Gentiles are told to obey "the ten commandments".

You must exclude Jesus talking to the Jews about their law because everyone knows the Jews were in covenant, to obey
the law on pain of death.

Also Davidstarr, do not use the letter to the Romans because Paul is explaining why Israel failed to achieve righteous
through the law.

Go ahead and show me!

 

[OMC]

The book of Acts alone shows over 80 different WEEKLY 7th day sabbaths kept by the early Christians. Both Jews and Gentiles alike.

The book of Acts does not show “over 80 weekly seventh‑day Sabbaths kept by early Christians.” What it shows is Paul repeatedly entering Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath because that’s when Jews gathered, and that’s where the audience was.
Acts records evangelistic encounters, not Christian worship patterns.
When Paul goes to Jews, he goes on Sabbath; when he goes to Gentiles, he meets daily (Acts 17:17), on the first day (Acts 20:7), or whenever believers assemble (Acts 2:46).
The text never says Christians kept the Sabbath weekly, never commands Sabbath‑keeping for Gentiles, and never presents Sabbath observance as the Christian norm.
What you’re doing is counting every synagogue visit as a Christian Sabbath service, which is a category error.

 

[Inquisitor]

It amazes me.
The number of people who don't actually read and understand God's teaching.
Humanism. Invoking Jesus doesn't mean it is Jesus approved.

W
There are those who double talk.
There is no law. ...The law is written in our mind and heart.

The antisemites,who don't know,Jesus was Jewish, insisting the Sabbath was only for the Jews. When the Sabbath was observed before Sinai and before there were Jews.

Then there's those who think,before Sinai there was no Sin or law.

Seriously,I would say,you can't make this stuff up. But,obviously you can.

I have not seen the observance of a sabbath day before Exodus 16 in the O.T.

You were taught that ancient observance in the traditional church but alas, you lack the evidence in the scripture.

Because the traditional church doctrine is not based on the scripture alone and it never was.

I am not making this up.

Read it yourself Bible_Locket.

Exodus 24:6-8
Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he splattered on the altar. Then he took
the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people, who replied, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we
will be obedient.” So Moses took the blood, splattered it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant
that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

Israel was given the law at Mt Sinai and Israel was in covenant to obey the Book of the Covenant.

Israel said they agreed to the terms of the covenant.

No other nation on earth ever had this covenant or agreed to the terms of that covenant.

If there were any laws before Mt Sinai that is beside the point.

The covenant between the Lord and Israel at Mt Sinai was written in blood.

The Gentile nations were never in a blood covenant to obey the Book of the Covenant.

I cannot believe that anyone could say that the Gentile nations had the Book of the Covenant?

Given the book of Exodus how can anyone even think some other nation was in on that agreement?

 

[Churchgoer]

The book of Acts does not show “over 80 weekly seventh‑day Sabbaths kept by early Christians.” What it shows is Paul repeatedly entering Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath because that’s when Jews gathered, and that’s where the audience was.
Acts records evangelistic encounters, not Christian worship patterns.
When Paul goes to Jews, he goes on Sabbath; when he goes to Gentiles, he meets daily (Acts 17:17), on the first day (Acts 20:7), or whenever believers assemble (Acts 2:46).
The text never says Christians kept the Sabbath weekly, never commands Sabbath‑keeping for Gentiles, and never presents Sabbath observance as the Christian norm.
What you’re doing is counting every synagogue visit as a Christian Sabbath service, which is a category error.

Again my understanding is the 7th day. Counting from day 1.
But day 1 can land on any day.
The important pattern is 7. ->sabbath literal meaning.

 

[Inquisitor]

The book of Acts does not show “over 80 weekly seventh‑day Sabbaths kept by early Christians.” What it shows is Paul repeatedly entering Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath because that’s when Jews gathered, and that’s where the audience was.
Acts records evangelistic encounters, not Christian worship patterns.
When Paul goes to Jews, he goes on Sabbath; when he goes to Gentiles, he meets daily (Acts 17:17), on the first day (Acts 20:7), or whenever believers assemble (Acts 2:46).
The text never says Christians kept the Sabbath weekly, never commands Sabbath‑keeping for Gentiles, and never presents Sabbath observance as the Christian norm.
What you’re doing is counting every synagogue visit as a Christian Sabbath service, which is a category error.

They had this muddled reading of the scripture hammered into their minds.

Of course Paul visited synagogues every sabbath up to chapter 18 in the book of Acts.

Chapter 18 of Acts.
When the local Jews opposed and insulted his message that Jesus was the Messiah, Paul shook out his garments and stated,
"Your blood be upon your own heads—I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles". He then moved next door to
the house of Titius Justus to continue his ministry.

That's about the end of the sabbath day visits to the Jewish synagogues.

Do they understand this?

Not at all.

It's not what the scripture states it's what they have been taught that matters.

Here is AI trying to straighten them out.

Gentile nations were never in a direct legal covenant to obey the Book of the Covenant outlined in Exodus 24. [1, 2]

The Scope of the Mosaic Covenant

• • National boundary: The Mosaic Covenant at Mount Sinai was established exclusively between God and the nation of Israel (the descendants of Jacob). [1, 2]
  • Exclusive recipients: Passages like Exodus 24 show Israel pledging obedience to the specific terms and laws delivered through Moses. Non-Israelites (Gentiles) were not signatories to this national agreement. [1, 2, 3]
  • Foreigners and proselytes: While a "mixed multitude" left Egypt with Israel and foreigners living among the Israelites could choose to circumcise and subject themselves to the community rules, this required entering into Israel's religious and social sphere rather than applying to independent Gentile nations. [1, 2, 3]

Theological Perspectives

Opinions on biblical law and nations are discussed across platforms like Reddit Bible Discussions, where users hold mixed opinions regarding how moral principles might transcend the specific national contract of Sinai. [1]

Mainstream biblical scholarship maintains that the legal codes of Exodus through Deuteronomy functioned as the constitutional law for the theocratic state of Israel, not as a universal covenant binding foreign political powers.

The scripture itself is not really relevant because what they were taught is what they repeat.

 

[OMC]

Again my understanding is the 7th day. Counting from day 1.
But day 1 can land on any day.
The important pattern is 7. ->sabbath literal meaning.

My understanding comes from a biblical‑theological, Christocentric, and exegetically governed way of reading the text.
And i am quite confident that it can speak for itself without help from any outside world system. That said,
The Sabbath for us now is not a weekly legal obligation but the fulfilled rest we enter by faith in Christ.
The reality Hebrews 4 calls “God’s rest,” the substance Colossians 2:16–17 says the old Sabbaths only shadowed, and the freedom Romans 14:5 gives where no day is mandated.
The Mosaic Sabbath was the covenant sign of Sinai; that covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), so its sign is not binding.
The New Covenant gives a better Sabbath: resting from works‑righteousness, ceasing from self‑justification, and living in the finished work of Christ.
Weekly gathering on the Lord’s Day is historic and good, but not commanded as a Sabbath.
Our Sabbath is Christ Himself, and the eschatological rest we taste now and will enter fully at the resurrection.

 

[Inquisitor]

Again my understanding is the 7th day. Counting from day 1.
But day 1 can land on any day.
The important pattern is 7. ->sabbath literal meaning.

The Jewish calendar week was first day, second day,..., day of preparation, sabbath day.

Our calendar is a Roman calendar.

We don't have a first day as our days have names and not numbers.

 

[Jerusalem_Road]

I have entered into God's rest through faith in Christ's atonement on the cross for my sins.
I think taking a day a week to gather with friends and family to eat and enjoy each other's company is a good thing. If there's a time for praise and worship to enjoy the Lord's presence and for Him to enjoy us, all the better.