Shall we sin that grace may abound?

[wattie]

This thread is about addressing the accusation given to OSAS believers, that we are 'preaching a license to sin' or saying you can be saved and 'live like the devil'

The things is, a saved person will have the Holy Spirit indwelling their soul/spirit. So He will discipline, rebuke and correct a son or daughter of His who goes wayward.

So then, usually you WON"T see a saved person live in constant, habitual sin. But, since after salvation, no one is sinless completely, it is not impossible for a saved person to be rebellious.

Romans 6:1-4 KJV - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Understanding the level of grace given to be given eternal life, usually leads the born again, secured, believer to love Jesus back.

Hebrews 6:18-20 KJV
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: [19] Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; [20] Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[ResidentAlien]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.” Charles Stanley, Eternal Security, Can You Be Sure?, pg. 93

“And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful.” Ibid., pg. 94

"You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our Lord." Ibid., pg. 80

"It is possible to be a child of God and never a disciple of Christ. We can live the Christian life with the assurance of heaven as our ultimate destiny but miss the process of maturing as a disciple." Stanley, Handbook For Christian Living, pg. 505

Charles Stanley, one of the most influential OSAS preachers. Kinda sounds like he's saying once you're saved it's party time, do what you want.

 

[wattie]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.” Charles Stanley, Eternal Security, Can You Be Sure?, pg. 93

“And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful.” Ibid., pg. 94

"You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our Lord." Ibid., pg. 80

"It is possible to be a child of God and never a disciple of Christ. We can live the Christian life with the assurance of heaven as our ultimate destiny but miss the process of maturing as a disciple." Stanley, Handbook For Christian Living, pg. 505

Charles Stanley, one of the most influential OSAS preachers. Kinda sounds like he's saying once you're saved it's party time, do what you want.

He isnt saying that. He is saying if we fail, Jesus's commitment to us remains. That's not someone who never follows Jesus.

 

[ResidentAlien]

He isnt saying that. He is saying if we fail, Jesus's commitment to us remains. That's not someone who never follows Jesus.

Does "fail" include becoming an unbeliever. Your loose interpretation of Stanley's words seems to reflect what you would like them to mean rather than what they actually mean.

 

[wattie]

Does "fail" include becoming an unbeliever. Your loose interpretation of Stanley's words seems to reflect what you would like them to mean rather than what they actually mean.

It is possible for that to happen, to become unbelieving and still have salvation, but that is a wretched existence of consistent reproof from the Holy Spirit. They will incur discipline and correction from Him. They may even have their lives taken by God to stop their sin affecting others.

But Jesus's commitment to us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit isnt dependent in our behaviour. It isnt a hire purchase agreement.

 

[Freed18]

This thread is about addressing the accusation given to OSAS believers, that we are 'preaching a license to sin' or saying you can be saved and 'live like the devil'

The things is, a saved person will have the Holy Spirit indwelling their soul/spirit. So He will discipline, rebuke and correct a son or daughter of His who goes wayward.

So then, usually you WON"T see a saved person live in constant, habitual sin. But, since after salvation, no one is sinless completely, it is not impossible for a saved person to be rebellious.

Romans 6:1-4 KJV - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Understanding the level of grace given to be given eternal life, usually leads the born again, secured, believer to love Jesus back.

Hebrews 6:18-20 KJV
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: [19] Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; [20] Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

By "salvation" are you referring to the day of judgment's outcome ?
Or something more like "conversion" ?
I'll admit that nobody will commit sin after the day of judgement.
But rebirth from God's seed accommodates that pure life here and now too.

 

[Freed18]

He isnt saying that. He is saying if we fail, Jesus's commitment to us remains. That's not someone who never follows Jesus.

Do you have a verse with Jesus saying that ?
On the contrary, Jesus does say..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)

 

[AngieG]

@wattie, I think there is an important distinction here between a believer falling into serious sin and saying that a believer can become an unbeliever and remain saved regardless.

Romans 6 seems to address the whole issue directly. Paul asks, “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” and answers, “By no means!” He then explains that we have died to sin and are to walk in newness of life.

That doesn't mean a Christian becomes sinless after salvation. We can certainly fail, become rebellious, and need the Holy Spirit's correction and discipline. We can also see in 1 Corinthians 5:5 a very serious case of sin where Paul speaks of the man's spirit being saved on the day of the Lord.

But I would be cautious about saying that someone can become an unbeliever and still remain saved. That is different from a believer falling into sin, and I think both questions need to be established from Scripture.

Grace gives us an assurance of God's mercy, but Romans 6 doesn't present grace as permission to continue living under sin's rule. In fact, Paul says, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

So I think the real biblical balance is that salvation is by grace through faith, while the grace that saves us also brings us into a new life in Christ. None of us live that new life perfectly, but that is very different from deliberately treating grace as a license to sin.

 

[Lovette]

Salvation has three parts - Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. To give a perhaps improper analogy, justification is like a free trial, sanctification is your monthly subscription, glorificatiob is your final ownership. I'm afraid OSAS proponents have taken justification as the entirety of salvation, that's the critical error.

 

[wattie]

Do you have a verse with Jesus saying that ?
On the contrary, Jesus does say..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)

2 Timothy 2:11-14 KJV
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: [12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: [13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. [14] Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

 

[wattie]

Salvation has three parts - Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. To give a perhaps improper analogy, justification is like a free trial, sanctification is your monthly subscription, glorificatiob is your final ownership. I'm afraid OSAS proponents have taken justification as the entirety of salvation, that's the critical error.

Justification is imputed righteousness given by God to the sinner who believes on Jesus Christ. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40, 10:28

Romans 5:8, etc

 

[Lovette]

Justification is imputed righteousness given by God to the sinner who believes on Jesus Christ. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40, 10:28

Romans 5:8, etc

Yes, but the sinners also have to accept it. You mentioned Jn. 3:16, but what does 3:18-21 say?

 

[wattie]

Yes, but the sinners also have to accept it. You mentioned Jn. 3:16, but what does 3:18-21 say?

Yes, this is about the walk a believer has following being justified. Following the light or darkness. A believer would be spurred on by Jesus through the Holy Spirit to remain in the light.

 

[Lovette]

Yes, this is about the walk a believer has following being justified. Following the light or darkness. A believer would be spurred on by Jesus through the Holy Spirit to remain in the light.

I don't see it as a simple dichotomy. Read Matt. 13, parable of the sower, there're four kinds, I think only the first kind who instantly rejects the seeds is the unbelievers, the second and the third, the shallow and thorny soils, are the church's mission field - hard layer can be tilled, thorns can be removed; the fourth one is the best soil for the seed's natural growth, but even within the fourth kind, the yield varies - some thirty folds, some sixty, some one hundred.

 

[Freed18]

2 Timothy 2:11-14 KJV
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: [12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: [13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. [14] Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Jesus will always be there for those whoturn from sin and unto Him.
But those that continue in sin have no chance of His intercession.

 

[wattie]

Jesus will always be there for those whoturn from sin and unto Him.
But those that continue in sin have no chance of His intercession.

Well there is a difference between those who have no fruit, and show a false pofession of faith, and those who are born again, but fall into waywardness. The wayward believer still has eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Freed18]

Well there is a difference between those who have no fruit, and show a false pofession of faith, and those who are born again, but fall into waywardness.

I disagree.
Fig seeds don't ever bring forth a single grape.

The wayward believer still has eternal life.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If men really do turn from sin they can start their walks in the light.
Until they do, however, their fate is the same as all the rest of the men who walk in darkness.

 

[wattie]

I disagree.
Fig seeds don't ever bring forth a single grape.

If men really do turn from sin they can start their walks in the light.
Until they do, however, their fate is the same as all the rest of the men who walk in darkness.

Well, that makes salvation a hire purchase agreement with no assurance of salvation. Where is Jesus's forgiveness of the stain of sin? Ineffectual?