Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[OMC]

Look, I'm showing the text, according to the use of the common language of the time that the scriptures were written. You guys can argue your systems all you want. I have said it before and I say it again. I am not a preacher. I teach biblical literacy. You don't like what you see, too bad. It's the scripture. Take your world views up with the one who wrote it. You're not going to convince me of your systems, and I have no need to convince you of the scriptures as they speak for themselves. Keep your views, it matters not to me as its not me you need to answer too. As for me I will continue to share the text as it was written, inspired by God.

 

[Beekeeper]

John describes locusts that look like horses prepared for battle, wearing golden crowns, with human faces, women's hair, lion's teeth, and iron-like breastplates. The noise of their wings sounds like the roaring rush of many horse-drawn chariots into battle. They have stings in their tails like scorpions and are given the power to torment those without the seal of God for five months.
Almost anyone who reads this believes John is talking about modern day military equipment and John was using things he knew and saw to describe what he had never seen.

Here is a similar example:
From our earthly perspective we understood that Herod did not want Jesus to live and sent his minions to kill babies.
Mary and Joseph with baby Jesus fled to Egypt and found refuge there (Mathew 2).
John in his heavenly vision saw a woman about to give birth and a dragon trying to devour the baby.
The woman flees to the wilderness and God gives her refuge.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Ever wonder why?

Enlighten us...

 

[Beekeeper]

Zechariah 12 isn’t a literal prediction of a future war with specific modern nations but apocalyptic, Christ‑centered siege imagery the NT applies to Christ’s piercing, not to today’s geopolitical conflicts, which means you’re retrofitting modern hostility toward Israel into apocalyptic universals rather than following the NT’s own interpretive frame.

People often forget when reading this chapter that Zechariah returned to the holy land with the first wave, under Zerubbabel.
Jerusalem had no walls, and the relatively small group of Israelites and Judaites came under heavy attack from many other tribes.
God protected them miraculously, enabling Judah to be exalted in battle, thus repairing the long feud between Israel and Judah.
The chapter also speaks of repentance and spiritual revival to " the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem".

 

[Beekeeper]

Has nothing to do with your inquiry.
By the way ....on this subject....how do you view....jesus.....the meek shall inherit the earth? Seems pointless huh?

The fact that this earth will be destroyed seems also to destroy your view that modern Israel will never be rooted out.

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In the face of a future event like this modern Israel can not possibly be the fulfillment of any eternal promise.

I view Jesus, ("the meek shall inherit the earth") and being the true fulfillment of all eternal promises, including those made to the children of Israel.

 

[God-fearing]

The fact that this earth will be destroyed seems also to destroy your view that modern Israel will never be rooted out.

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In the face of a future event like this modern Israel can not possibly be the fulfillment of any eternal promise.

I view Jesus, ("the meek shall inherit the earth") and being the true fulfillment of all eternal promises, including those made to the children of Israel.

The fact that this earth will be destroyed seems also to destroy your view that modern Israel will never be rooted out

Not at all, all of us agree that this earth shall pass away one day, this is not debated. What is argued is how we view events leading up to this.
There's a big difference between the nations of today and Israel many fail to recognize.
Nations are formed by alliances, seized, ect ect......Israel was created....Gods first son......big difference.

 

[Beekeeper]

The fact that this earth will be destroyed seems also to destroy your view that modern Israel will never be rooted out

Not at all, all of us agree that this earth shall pass away one day, this is not debated. What is argued is how we view events leading up to this.
There's a big difference between the nations of today and Israel many fail to recognize.
Nations are formed by alliances, seized, ect ect......Israel was created....Gods first son......big difference.

2 Peter 3:10 also says that the WORKS that are in the earth will be melted.
The modern Israel nation is a work.
Any differences that we might have in how we view the events leading up to this makes no difference at all.

If a pre-trib rapture followed by a temporary earthly reign of Jesus was to happen,
We are all at the same place after the (imaginary) event.
The everlasting promises of God can not be fulfilled in any nation on this present earth.
They must be fulfilled in the new heaven and the new earth.

The faithful Hebrews understood this:

Hebrews 13:14
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Even the faithful Old Testament Hebrews understood this:

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

I suspect on some level you are really not silly enough to think that a nuclear armed colony with the backing of the U.S. military industrial complex is the "meek" that will inherit the earth.
Whether you have extra eschatology or not, I think that you still know that the everlasting inheritance is in the new heaven and new earth to come.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Look, I'm showing the text, according to the use of the common language of the time that the scriptures were written. You guys can argue your systems all you want. I have said it before and I say it again. I am not a preacher. I teach biblical literacy. You don't like what you see, too bad. It's the scripture. Take your world views up with the one who wrote it. You're not going to convince me of your systems, and I have no need to convince you of the scriptures as they speak for themselves. Keep your views, it matters not to me as its not me you need to answer too. As for me I will continue to share the text as it was written, inspired by God.

Stop pretending that you don't have your own biased system based on the school you went to and the school you teach at now (where you teach the New Testament). We know it's hard to break free from something you've been so comfortable with for Lord knows how many years. It's all a part of the learning process and the learning process never ends no matter who you are, how old you get, or how many years you've been studying and teaching. This is why I've been having these types of online discussions for almost 20 years. You never know what you're going to learn each day. The scriptures do speak for themselves and Jesus specifically said He would fulfill everything written in the Old Testament in Luke 24:44. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It all belongs to Him.

 

[OMC]

Stop pretending that you don't have your own biased system based on the school you went to and the school you teach at now (where you teach the New Testament). We know it's hard to break free from something you've been so comfortable with for Lord knows how many years. It's all a part of the learning process and the learning process never ends no matter who you are, how old you get, or how many years you've been studying and teaching. This is why I've been having these types of online discussions for almost 20 years. You never know what you're going to learn each day. The scriptures do speak for themselves and Jesus specifically said He would fulfill everything written in the Old Testament in Luke 24:44. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It all belongs to Him

The system I've been articulating is a Christocentric, fulfillment‑driven hermeneutic — a framework where the entire canon bends toward the telos Jesus Himself declares in Luke 24:44, meaning prophecy, covenant, temple, kingdom, and narrative all find their completion in Him rather than in any external timetable, denominational grid, or academic tradition; it’s not “preterism,” not “futurism,” not “historic premill,” not “amill,” and not “postmill,” because each of those systems begins with a structure and then fits Scripture into it, whereas my approach begins with Scripture’s own claim about its center and lets that center dictate the shape of everything else, which makes my system best described as canonical‑fulfillment theology — a text‑first, Christ‑anchored, kingdom‑telos reading that refuses to let any school, guild, or tradition override the narrative Jesus says belongs to Him. All of this you already know. And if being text first and Christ driven is bias, then yes, I am very biased in this regard.

 

[Revelation1v8]

2 Peter 3:10 also says that the WORKS that are in the earth will be melted.
The modern Israel nation is a work.
Any differences that we might have in how we view the events leading up to this makes no difference at all.

If a pre-trib rapture followed by a temporary earthly reign of Jesus was to happen,
We are all at the same place after the (imaginary) event.
The everlasting promises of God can not be fulfilled in any nation on this present earth.
They must be fulfilled in the new heaven and the new earth.

The faithful Hebrews understood this:

Hebrews 13:14
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Even the faithful Old Testament Hebrews understood this:

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

I suspect on some level you are really not silly enough to think that a nuclear armed colony with the backing of the U.S. military industrial complex is the "meek" that will inherit the earth.
Whether you have extra eschatology or not, I think that you still know that the everlasting inheritance is in the new heaven and new earth to come.

Here's the thing. There's nothing written in Hebrews 13:14 or Hebrews 11:13 that says that while they don't have a "CONTINUING city", on earth but they seek one to come, doesn't mean that they won't have them both at a later date. We know that the permanent city comes down from Heaven, so at some point they merge, but we shouldn't look at that as if God/Jesus only intended for it to be only a heavenly one. I've been pondering what exactly the definition of the new heaven and the new earth are. The way it is written shows them as separate. Does the Millennial Kingdom happen on the new earth before the New Jerusalem descends down from Heaven to join it? That's an idea that's been thrown out to me that I keep trying to work out.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The system I've been articulating is a Christocentric, fulfillment‑driven hermeneutic — a framework where the entire canon bends toward the telos Jesus Himself declares in Luke 24:44, meaning prophecy, covenant, temple, kingdom, and narrative all find their completion in Him rather than in any external timetable, denominational grid, or academic tradition; it’s not “preterism,” not “futurism,” not “historic premill,” not “amill,” and not “postmill,” because each of those systems begins with a structure and then fits Scripture into it, whereas my approach begins with Scripture’s own claim about its center and lets that center dictate the shape of everything else, which makes my system best described as canonical‑fulfillment theology — a text‑first, Christ‑anchored, kingdom‑telos reading that refuses to let any school, guild, or tradition override the narrative Jesus says belongs to Him. All of this you already know. And if being text first and Christ driven is bias, then yes, I am very biased in this regard.

The system you are articulating is one where everything has been SPIRITUALLY fulfilled through Jesus and then you try to apply spiritual ideas to tangible objects in the way they are described and throwing all use of specific details and dimensions that have been given to describe them as tangible out the window. While the Bible certainly does apply spiritual meaning to some earthly things, they aren't the ones that go into as much detail as the Ezekiel temple in chapters 40 through 48. There are 8 chapters dedicated it and you can't just ignore by saying it all has spiritual meaning. As far as you know, the "shadow of things to come" could be both a physical and spiritual fulfillment. See my last comment to Beekeeper for my details.

 

[OMC]

The system you are articulating is one where everything has been SPIRITUALLY fulfilled through Jesus and then you try to apply spiritual ideas to tangible objects in the way they are described and throwing all use of specific details and dimensions that have been given to describe them as tangible out the window. While the Bible certainly does apply spiritual meaning to some earthly things, they aren't the ones that go into as much detail as the Ezekiel temple in chapters 40 through 48. There are 8 chapters dedicated it and you can't just ignore by saying it all has spiritual meaning. As far as you know, the "shadow of things to come" could be both a physical and spiritual fulfillment. See my last comment to Beekeeper for my details.

You’re treating “spiritual fulfillment” as if it means “non‑literal,” but the NT treats spiritual fulfillment as the more literal reality — the thing the physical shadow was pointing to — which means your argument about Ezekiel’s dimensions only works if the shadow is the substance, but Hebrews explicitly says the shadow is not the substance, so the burden of proof is on you to show why the most detailed temple description in the OT must be physical when the NT says the entire Levitical system is obsolete, fulfilled, and non‑returnable; the issue is not “ignoring details,” it’s that details do not override genre, and Ezekiel 40–48 is apocalyptic‑vision architecture, not construction blueprints — the same genre that gives us a river that grows without tributaries, land allotments that ignore geography, priests who never die, and sacrifices that contradict Hebrews unless they are symbolic; your system assumes “detail = literal,” but Scripture itself denies that hermeneutic, because prophetic architecture is visionary, not engineering, and the NT tells you the telos of temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and land is Christ, not a future building;
so no, I’m not “spiritualizing tangible objects,” I’m letting the canon tell me which objects were shadows and which fulfillment replaced them — and Ezekiel’s temple is a shadow pointing to the Christic sanctuary, not a future construction project.

 

[Revelation1v8]

You’re treating “spiritual fulfillment” as if it means “non‑literal,” but the NT treats spiritual fulfillment as the more literal reality — the thing the physical shadow was pointing to — which means your argument about Ezekiel’s dimensions only works if the shadow is the substance, but Hebrews explicitly says the shadow is not the substance, so the burden of proof is on you to show why the most detailed temple description in the OT must be physical when the NT says the entire Levitical system is obsolete, fulfilled, and non‑returnable; the issue is not “ignoring details,” it’s that details do not override genre, and Ezekiel 40–48 is apocalyptic‑vision architecture, not construction blueprints — the same genre that gives us a river that grows without tributaries, land allotments that ignore geography, priests who never die, and sacrifices that contradict Hebrews unless they are symbolic; your system assumes “detail = literal,” but Scripture itself denies that hermeneutic, because prophetic architecture is visionary, not engineering, and the NT tells you the telos of temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and land is Christ, not a future building;
so no, I’m not “spiritualizing tangible objects,” I’m letting the canon tell me which objects were shadows and which fulfillment replaced them — and Ezekiel’s temple is a shadow pointing to the Christic sanctuary, not a future construction project.

The problem is that you've never been able to describe exactly how every detail of the temple in Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 is ONLY a shadow. And while you say it's "apocalyptic-vision architecture" not construction blueprints, it is WRITTEN like construction blueprints due to all of it's detail.

Ezekiel 40–48 describes a future, literal Third Temple in the Millennial Kingdom, after the church age. The NT declares the Levitical system obsolete for the present covenant era, but God will restore a physical temple and priesthood during the millennium. The two don't conflict because they describe different time periods. The NT's "obsolescence" is not a permanent, eternal abolition of all temple worship for all of history — it's the end of the old covenant system, which will be superseded by a new administration in the millennium.

Key support: Jeremiah 33:18–22 promises the Levitical line will never be without a minister before God, and Ezekiel's vision is seen as the fulfillment of that promise in a future era.

 

[OMC]

The problem is that you've never been able to describe exactly how every detail of the temple in Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 is ONLY a shadow. And while you say it's "apocalyptic-vision architecture" not construction blueprints, it is WRITTEN like construction blueprints due to all of it's detail.

Ezekiel 40–48 describes a future, literal Third Temple in the Millennial Kingdom, after the church age. The NT declares the Levitical system obsolete for the present covenant era, but God will restore a physical temple and priesthood during the millennium. The two don't conflict because they describe different time periods. The NT's "obsolescence" is not a permanent, eternal abolition of all temple worship for all of history — it's the end of the old covenant system, which will be superseded by a new administration in the millennium.

Key support: Jeremiah 33:18–22 promises the Levitical line will never be without a minister before God, and Ezekiel's vision is seen as the fulfillment of that promise in a future era.

Your argument assumes that “detail = literal,” but prophetic architecture has always used exhaustive detail to communicate theological reality, not engineering schematics, and Ezekiel’s temple contains internal features that cannot exist in a literal millennial world without contradicting the New Covenant, Hebrews, geography, physics, and the sacrificial telos of Christ, meaning the burden of proof is not on me to show “how every detail is symbolic,” but on you to show how a literal millennial temple can contain
(1) a river that grows without tributaries;
(2) land allotments that ignore topography and tribal history;
(3) a Zadokite priesthood offering sin offerings after the once‑for‑all sacrifice;
(4) atonement rituals that Hebrews says are forever obsolete;
(5) a prince who must offer sacrifices for his own sin; and
(6) dimensions that cannot fit the actual Jerusalem terrain — all while claiming this is “the restored Levitical system” even though the Levitical system is explicitly declared non‑returnable (Heb 7:12; 8:13; 10:18);
Jeremiah 33 does not promise eternal Levitical sacrifices, it promises perpetual covenant faithfulness, which the NT says is fulfilled in Christ’s eternal priesthood, not in resurrected animal offerings; so the issue is not ignoring detail, it’s recognizing that Ezekiel’s detail functions like apocalyptic temple vision — symbolic precision used to reveal the holiness, order, and presence of God in the age to come — and the NT’s claim that Christ is the final temple means Ezekiel’s vision is the architectural shadow of the Christic sanctuary.