More about Israel.

[brightfame52]

The book of revelation is a good book to show the connection of Israel and the Church, that the promises to Israel in the OT are fulfilled by the Jew and Gentile Church ..

In Rev 21:14

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This is the wall of the city of the New Jerusalem, the city Abraham hoped for Heb 11:10

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

and had Twelve foundation stones, on which were written the names of the Twelve Apostles.

And in vs 12 it speaks of the Twelve Gates :

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

The number Twenty Four, which is the total of the Twelve Tribes and the Twelve Apostles, This number mentioned earlier in Rev 4:4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

This could be alluding to David's Kingdom organization of the Temple servants into 24 orders of Priest see 1 Chron 24:3-19, 24 Levitical gatekeepers 26:17-19; and 24 orders of priest 25:6-31

The Prophesied City Temple structure in Ezk 40-48 finds it's fulfillment in the Twelve Tribe/ Twelve Apostle City Temple in Rev 21, all the redeemed Church of God. 5

 

[brightfame52]

Israel's Future !

Is there a future in God's Purpose for the People Israel ? Most certainly Yes ! What about National Israel ? Sorry No, remember Paul stated Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Has not God already fulfilled His Promise to that Nation ? Those called dispensationalist and premillenialist teach and believe [falsely] that God is yet to fulfill promises to this Nation in a coming 1000 yr Millennium Kingdom.

Now the best way to begin to understand these things is by examining the promises made to Abraham, who is the Father of His Natural descendants of the Flesh [National Israel] and even more importantly the Father of His Spiritual Descendants, those that Believe ! Notice Rom 4:11

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This is extremely important, because what many fail to realize is that God promised Abraham a believing seed as well as a physical seed.

Now are there promises made to Abraham that are fulfilled, and yet to be fulfilled ? As we look at the promises made to Him, we will notice two types, one which includes Abraham personally in the promise, as well as a promise that does not .

Lets look at this one Gen 12:6-7

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

If noticed, this promise did not include Abram, but His seed, and it was not stipulated how long His seed would have this Land. This promise was made again Gen 15:18-21

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

And yet Again Abram is not included as a recipient of this land, and this is important, see also Gen 24:7

7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

As before the promise to enter the land was not for Abraham personally and no definite time frame is given as to how long the land would belong to His seed. It should be noted that the promise of his seed obtaining the land was unconditionally made to Abraham at the beginning and all He did was build an altar to worship Gen 12:7

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. 6

 

[brightfame52]

Israel's Future ! cont

Now lets look at another covenant promise made to Abraham in the scripture, which did include Abraham personally:

Gen 12:1-3

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 13:15-17

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

This promise was made to Abraham and His seed, and the continuance of this land grant is stated forever. This promise is spoken again Gen 17:5-8

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Here is the annunciation of it to the other heirs of promise Heb 11:8-9


8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gen 26:1-5 and Gen 28: 12-15

Lets look at the noticeable difference, the covenant promises of the Land that excluded Abraham, these promises the scripture says have been fulfilled, but the promises of the Land that included Abraham have not been fulfilled.

Now the land acquisition of Abraham's Physical seed, the Nation of Israel, of which no time frame was given expressly, that promise has been fulfilled to that seed of Abraham> Lets look at Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Josh 23:14

14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Neh 9:7-8

7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

Now, from these scriptures, who can doubt that God has not already kept the land promise to Abraham's physical seed. It was a done deal centuries ago.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 9:6-8 Israel !

Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In this passage Israel is defined in four titles

In vs 6 Israel

in vs 7 The seed of Abraham or Children of Abraham

in vs 8 Children of God and The Children of promise

So either of these titles can be Israel, that is Israel is the seed of Abraham or children of Abraham, the Children of God or children of promise as well as Israel is Israel.

So then the Children of Abraham by Faith as per Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

This is Israel ! The Children or Sons of God by Faith are Israel Gal 3:26

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The seed of Abraham is Israel Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Children of Promise as in Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

All of these Titles for Israel are found in Rom 9:6-8 as they define Israel of vs 6.

And likewise those Titles define believers in Christ no matter their ethnicity.

So there is a Israel that is not based upon ethnicity, but based on belonging to Christ.

That's the Israel of God to whom all the promises of God were made to in the OT.

 

[brightfame52]

The Children of Promise​

As previously posted, Romans 9:6–8 identifies a particular people as the “children of promise.”

“They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
—Romans 9:8

Paul therefore distinguishes between children according to the flesh and children of promise.

And Galatians 4:28 tells us exactly who these children of promise are:

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

That is a very significant statement.

Paul identifies believers with Isaac—not merely because they receive a promise, but because they are children of promise as Isaac was.

How did Isaac become the child of promise?​

God promised Abraham:

“Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac.”
—Genesis 17:19

And again:

“Sarah shall have a son.”
—Genesis 18:10

Sarah was beyond the natural ability to bear children:

“Sarah was old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.”
—Genesis 18:11

Yet God said:

“At the time appointed I will return unto thee... and Sarah shall have a son.”
—Genesis 18:14

Then Genesis 21:1 gives the fulfillment:

“And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.”

Isaac therefore came according to God's promise and God's power, not according to ordinary human ability.

That is precisely why Paul uses Isaac as the illustration of the children of promise.

The election principle is even more explicit in Romans 9​

Paul says:

“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand...”
—Romans 9:11

Notice the order:

God's purpose according to election → promise → child of promise.

The child's works did not establish God's electing purpose.

And Paul then says:

“So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
—Galatians 3:9

And:

“And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
—Galatians 3:29

The believer is therefore an heir according to the promise.

Faith is absolutely real and necessary.

But faith does not explain why God made the person a child of promise in the first place.

Rather, the child of promise is brought to faith.

That is why Paul can say:

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”
—Galatians 4:28

And what inheritance did the promise ultimately point toward?​

Genesis speaks of the promised land of Canaan, but Hebrews shows that Abraham's faith looked beyond the earthly land to a greater inheritance:

“For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”
—Hebrews 11:10

And:

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
—Hebrews 11:16

So the earthly promise ultimately points us to the heavenly inheritance for which Abraham and the patriarchs looked.

And Hebrews identifies Isaac and Jacob as:

“the heirs with him of the same promise.”
—Hebrews 11:9

The point​

Isaac did not become the child of promise because he first qualified himself.

He was the child God promised to Abraham.

And Paul takes Isaac as the pattern for believers:

“As Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

Therefore, believers do not become children of promise because their faith caused God to choose them.

They believe because God has made them children of promise.

The order is:

God's purpose according to election → promise → children of promise → faith → inheritance.

Not:

human decision → faith → qualification → becoming a child of promise.

That does not make faith unnecessary. Quite the opposite.

Every true child of promise will believe.

But the faith is the fruit and evidence of God's gracious work, not the cause that moved God to make them children of promise.

This is the significance of Isaac.

Promise came first.
God's purpose came first.
The promised child was produced by God's power.
And the child of promise received the inheritance.

Paul then tells us:

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

The ethnicity differs. The generations differ. But the principle remains:

God's people are children of promise[Israel], and God's promise produces the people to whom the inheritance belongs.

 

[Toddini]

The Children of Promise​

As previously posted, Romans 9:6–8 identifies a particular people as the “children of promise.”


Paul therefore distinguishes between children according to the flesh and children of promise.

And Galatians 4:28 tells us exactly who these children of promise are:


That is a very significant statement.

Paul identifies believers with Isaac—not merely because they receive a promise, but because they are children of promise as Isaac was.

How did Isaac become the child of promise?​

God promised Abraham:


And again:


Sarah was beyond the natural ability to bear children:


Yet God said:


Then Genesis 21:1 gives the fulfillment:


Isaac therefore came according to God's promise and God's power, not according to ordinary human ability.

That is precisely why Paul uses Isaac as the illustration of the children of promise.

The election principle is even more explicit in Romans 9​

Paul says:


Notice the order:

God's purpose according to election → promise → child of promise.

The child's works did not establish God's electing purpose.

And Paul then says:


And:


The believer is therefore an heir according to the promise.

Faith is absolutely real and necessary.

But faith does not explain why God made the person a child of promise in the first place.

Rather, the child of promise is brought to faith.

That is why Paul can say:

And what inheritance did the promise ultimately point toward?​

Genesis speaks of the promised land of Canaan, but Hebrews shows that Abraham's faith looked beyond the earthly land to a greater inheritance:


And:


So the earthly promise ultimately points us to the heavenly inheritance for which Abraham and the patriarchs looked.

And Hebrews identifies Isaac and Jacob as:

The point​

Isaac did not become the child of promise because he first qualified himself.

He was the child God promised to Abraham.

And Paul takes Isaac as the pattern for believers:


Therefore, believers do not become children of promise because their faith caused God to choose them.

They believe because God has made them children of promise.

The order is:

God's purpose according to election → promise → children of promise → faith → inheritance.

Not:

human decision → faith → qualification → becoming a child of promise.

That does not make faith unnecessary. Quite the opposite.

Every true child of promise will believe.

But the faith is the fruit and evidence of God's gracious work, not the cause that moved God to make them children of promise.

This is the significance of Isaac.

Promise came first.
God's purpose came first.
The promised child was produced by God's power.
And the child of promise received the inheritance.

Paul then tells us:


The ethnicity differs. The generations differ. But the principle remains:

God's people are children of promise[Israel], and God's promise produces the people to whom the inheritance belongs.

If Gentiles were already included in God's promises through Noah and Abraham, what additional covenant relationship did Jesus make available to them?

 

[brightfame52]

If Gentiles were already included in God's promises through Noah and Abraham, what additional covenant relationship did Jesus make available to them?

Toddini,

Your question touches on an important distinction regarding how God interacts with humanity throughout history. However, it assumes that the inclusion of Gentiles under Noah or Abraham was already an active, saving relationship prior to Christ. The New Testament shows us that this wasn't the case.

To see what Jesus actually made available, we have to look at how these covenants function:

• The Noahic Covenant is Common/Providential: The covenant with Noah (Genesis 9) is a universal, non-redemptive covenant made with all living flesh to preserve the physical earth. It does not provide eternal salvation, justify a sinner, or make anyone a "child of promise." It simply provides the stable, providential framework in which human history can proceed.
• The Abrahamic Covenant is Special/Redemptive: This is the covenant of eternal salvation. While Genesis 12:3 prophetically pointed to a day when all families of the earth would be blessed, that inclusion was a blueprint, not an accomplished saving reality for the Gentile nations at large during the Old Testament era.

Prior to the coming of Christ, Paul explicitly describes the spiritual state of the Gentiles:

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.”


— Ephesians 2:12

So, Jesus did not come to offer an "additional" or alternative covenant relationship for Gentiles. Rather, He came to legally execute, unlock, and apply the original Covenant of Promise to them. He did this in two distinct ways:

1. He is the Singular Seed

In Galatians 3:16, Paul points out that the promises were not made to many seeds, but to one: “And to thy seed, which is Christ.” No one—neither Jew by anatomy nor Gentile by nature—has an inherent, automatic right to Abraham's inheritance. The only way to be counted as Abraham’s seed is to be legally and vitally joined to the true Seed, which is Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:29).

2. He Removed the Legal Barrier

Christ redeemed His people from the curse of the law, “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” (Galatians 4:5, Galatians 3:14).
Jesus did not merely make a relationship "available" as a passive option for autonomous human choice. He actively breaks open the prison of unbelief. By sending the Holy Spirit to regenerate dead hearts, He performs His own word—transforming "aliens and strangers" into children of promise born by the power of God, exactly like Isaac.

---

 

[Toddini]

Toddini,

Your question touches on an important distinction regarding how God interacts with humanity throughout history. However, it assumes that the inclusion of Gentiles under Noah or Abraham was already an active, saving relationship prior to Christ. The New Testament shows us that this wasn't the case.

To see what Jesus actually made available, we have to look at how these covenants function:

• The Noahic Covenant is Common/Providential: The covenant with Noah (Genesis 9) is a universal, non-redemptive covenant made with all living flesh to preserve the physical earth. It does not provide eternal salvation, justify a sinner, or make anyone a "child of promise." It simply provides the stable, providential framework in which human history can proceed.
• The Abrahamic Covenant is Special/Redemptive: This is the covenant of eternal salvation. While Genesis 12:3 prophetically pointed to a day when all families of the earth would be blessed, that inclusion was a blueprint, not an accomplished saving reality for the Gentile nations at large during the Old Testament era.

Prior to the coming of Christ, Paul explicitly describes the spiritual state of the Gentiles:


So, Jesus did not come to offer an "additional" or alternative covenant relationship for Gentiles. Rather, He came to legally execute, unlock, and apply the original Covenant of Promise to them. He did this in two distinct ways:

1. He is the Singular Seed

In Galatians 3:16, Paul points out that the promises were not made to many seeds, but to one: “And to thy seed, which is Christ.” No one—neither Jew by anatomy nor Gentile by nature—has an inherent, automatic right to Abraham's inheritance. The only way to be counted as Abraham’s seed is to be legally and vitally joined to the true Seed, which is Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:29).

2. He Removed the Legal Barrier

Christ redeemed His people from the curse of the law, “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” (Galatians 4:5, Galatians 3:14).
Jesus did not merely make a relationship "available" as a passive option for autonomous human choice. He actively breaks open the prison of unbelief. By sending the Holy Spirit to regenerate dead hearts, He performs His own word—transforming "aliens and strangers" into children of promise born by the power of God, exactly like Isaac.

---

Did Gentiles need to become members of Israel's covenant community, or could they participate in God's promises without assuming every obligation of the Mosaic covenant?

 

[brightfame52]

Did Gentiles need to become members of Israel's covenant community, or could they participate in God's promises without assuming every obligation of the Mosaic covenant?

Obviously you don't understand what I have already discussed with you. Review with me what I have answered so far please.

 

[Toddini]

Obviously you don't understand what I have already discussed with you. Review with me what I have answered so far please.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but as referring to one: “And to your seed”—who is Christ.

Genesis 12:2–3 “And I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great; and be a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who treats you lightly I will curse; and all the families of the ground will bless themselves through you.”

This already exists and Jesus is simply pointing it out to those that have not been taught or forgot.

 

[brightfame52]

The Hope Of Israel !

Acts 28:20

20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Paul stated as the Chosen Apostle to the Gentiles, that He was in chains for or because of the Hope of Israel !

Was this Hope a earthly kingdom for the ethnic jews ? or was this hope, the hope of the Gospel as per Col 1:23

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Paul was in bonds or chains in Acts 20:21-25 for this:

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

No doubt the bonds He was yet in Acts 28:20 are for the same cause spoken here in Acts 20 24-25 Preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God and Preaching the Kingdom of God.

If we look back to Chpt 26 when Paul spake unto King Agrippa, we see as Paul understood the scriptures [being now converted and taught of God and no longer in His former ignorance Phil 3:4-8] The Hope of the promise of God made to the Fathers [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] unto which promise all the Twelve Tribes [The Church of God or The Israel of God] hope to come, was realized in the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 26:6-8;16-18

6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

And to confirm this He [Paul] explained His encounter with the risen Lord on the damascus road, of which He was charged by Him to preach the Gospel to both Jews and Greeks vs

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Note: This is still the hope of Israel !

In Preaching the Hope of Israel, He preached also the Kingdom of God by the Cross of Christ to both Jews and Gentiles Acts 28:28-31

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all [jew or gentile] that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

So we see the Kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ go hand and hand, and there is no preaching Christ without Preaching His resurrection see 1 Cor 15:3-4..

From what has been presented, the Hope of Israel is Spiritual and grounded in the Cross of Christ and His resurrection, and so thats why Paul even as a apostle to the gentiles could say that God, in raising up Christ, raised a Saviour unto Israel, meaning Spiritual Israel Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This is the Hope of Israel, even the Israel of God. 6