looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[Davidstarr]

Read my post again, I never said or implied any commandments of God have been abolished, not one jot or tittle

Yet you posted, "The works of the Law were The man-made decrees made by the religious rulers that the people had to follow.."

 

[Davidstarr]

Love love the Lord your God all your heart All your Soul & mind
The second one would be do not Grieve the Holy Spirit or should that be the first one?

Always good advice.
But the 2nd is to love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[NightTwister]

It DOES specifically specify:
"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon" is part of the context.
These things are not found in the 10 commandments.
It is talking about all the ceremonial sabbaths. There were several of them in the Mosaic Law. Including one year in 7 of rest for the land.
Nothing specific about the 7th day of the week sabbath.

You guys really love to take things out of the context.
It makes it easier to redefine the meanings of words and verses.
Makes it easier to ignore what is right there under your nose.

Do you actually think God's 10 commandments have been abolished?
If you break even 1 commandment out of the 10 you have broken God's law.

You say it talks about that but doesn't SAY that. You're making it say that when it doesn't.

 

[Roger316]

Human supposition. Not bible fact.
The entire text (and context) speaks of the Levitical/ceremonial laws.
Where does the text say anything about any of the 10 commandments?

What do you mean? Isn't the Sabbath Day the fourth Commandment?

 

[Roger316]

It DOES specifically specify:
"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon" is part of the context.
These things are not found in the 10 commandments.
It is talking about all the ceremonial sabbaths. There were several of them in the Mosaic Law. Including one year in 7 of rest for the land.
Nothing specific about the 7th day of the week sabbath.

You guys really love to take things out of the context.
It makes it easier to redefine the meanings of words and verses.
Makes it easier to ignore what is right there under your nose.

Do you actually think God's 10 commandments have been abolished?
If you break even 1 commandment out of the 10 you have broken God's law.

Who said anything about being abolished?

 

[Davidstarr]

You say it talks about that but doesn't SAY that. You're making it say that when it doesn't.

I was thinking that about you. Easy to falsely accuse someone of doing what you do huh?
The context of Col 2 is about the ceremonial laws with verse 16 being the ceremonial sabbaths. You want people to think it means the 7th day sabbath. It does not.
Perhaps you do not understand that the 10 commandment law HAS NO CEREMONIAL SABBATHS IN IT?

I guess you are forgetting day 7 of creation week was God's day of rest from His 6-day work week.
No ceremonial laws even existed at that time....

I don't see why it is so hard to understand. The Levitical laws figuratively pointed to Jesus on the cross for remission of sins.
NOTHING in the 10 commandment law talks about remission from sin, or animal sacrifices, circumcision, temple services, etc.

It's a list of DOs and DON'Ts.....

 

[Davidstarr]

What do you mean? Isn't the Sabbath Day the fourth Commandment?

Where in the text does it explicitly state it is talking about the sabbath of the 4th commandment?

 

[Davidstarr]

Who said anything about being abolished?

Just about every single one of you guys think the 7th day sabbath of the 4th commandment has been abolished.
Or transformed into something else that the command actually does not say.

 

[Yissachar]

Yet you posted, "The works of the Law were The man-made decrees made by the religious rulers that the people had to follow.."

Yes, a scroll called the works of the law was found among the dead sea scrolls, a list of things to do and not do in order to become righteous, the 4QMMT Scroll

The works of the law was a man-made set of rules

 

[OMC]

Yes, a scroll called the works of the law was found among the dead sea scrolls, a list of things to do and not do in order to become righteous, the 4QMMT Scroll

The works of the law was a man-made set of rules

4QMMT does show that the phrase "works of the law" was used in Second Temple Judaism before Paul.
However, the document bases its rulings on the Law of Moses as interpreted by the Qumran community, not merely on random man-made rules.

The phrase itself means deeds required by the law.
The real question is whether Paul is condemning only sectarian boundary markers or all attempts to be justified through law-keeping.

In Galatians and Romans, Paul does not contrast man-made traditions with faith.
He contrasts justification by faith with justification through works of the law.
If "works of the law" referred only to man-made rules, Paul's argument loses much of its force, since no one was defending salvation by Pharisaic traditions alone.

4QMMT may help us understand the Jewish background of the phrase, but it does not prove that Paul's target was merely man-made regulations rather than reliance on law-keeping for righteousness before God.

 

[Journey_man]

You have no biblical evidence.

As I stated above Rev 1:10 does not say the Lord's Day is the 1st day of the week. Nor does it mention that the 1st day of the week is now the Christian sabbath. I believe Rev 22 has warnings about adding in words into that book that are not there.

Again, As I stated above Acts 2:46 shows the apostles and early Christians assembling on EVERY day of the week to praise God and eat a communal meal together.

Acts 20:7 is no different than any other day of the week they assembled except for one thing. Paul was about to go on a journey and wanted to say a few things before he left. Some of his journeyings lasted for months. There is no hint in Acts 20:7 that this was kept as a weekly sabbath nor is it called the "Lord's Day".
BTW this was a nightly meeting, Paul preached until midnight. Back in bible times a new day started at sunset. This was (what we would call today) a Saturday night meeting and Paul would leave "on the morrow" (AKA the following sunrise) to start his journey. Paul began his journey Sunday morning.

I Cor 16:2 does not even describe a Sunday meeting nor does it state this was the "Lord's Day".
Paul was planning on passing through Corinth and wanted the Christians in that city to already have their gatherings ready for when he got there. He asked them to take the time on the 1st day of the week to gather those offerings. He knew he would not make it to Corinth on the 1st day of the week.

You really need to read/study the texts for yourself rather than parroting the teachings of religious leaders. They have simply taken the phrase "first day of the week" out of the context and redefined those verses to mean a weekly Sunday worship which none of texts actually say.

BTW there are over 80 different weekly Saturday sabbath mentioned in the book of Acts alone kept by both Jews and Gentiles.
Which specifically show a weekly sabbath day kept for teaching and worship.
Would you like those references?

Sunday did not merely "replace" Saturday as a rigid calendar swap; rather, the weekly Sabbath principle was fulfilled and transitioned to the Lords Day (Sunday) in honor of Christ's resurrection. There are two parts to the Fourth Commandment, there's a moral element and a ceremonial/shadow element.

The Moral/Permanent Element is the 1-in-7 rhythm of work and holy rest, established at creation (Genesis 2) before the Mosaic covenant, is a permanent moral law for all humanity.

The Ceremonial/Temporary Element is the strict observance specifically on the seventh day (Saturday), alongside the specific civil and penal codes given to ancient Israel as a national covenant sign, belonged to the Old Covenant administration.

Just as the old Sabbath commemorated the completion of the first creation, Sunday celebrates the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the "first day of the week"—inaugurating the new creation.

The New Testament shows the early Christian church regularly gathering for worship, breaking bread, and collecting offerings on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2), referred to in Revelation 1:10 as the "Lord's Day.

Colossians 2:16–17 teaches that Old Testament festival days and sabbaths were a "shadow" whose substance belongs to Christ. In Christ, believers enter an ultimate spiritual rest and express that through weekly corporate worship and physical rest on the first day.

 

[Yissachar]

4QMMT does show that the phrase "works of the law" was used in Second Temple Judaism before Paul.
However, the document bases its rulings on the Law of Moses as interpreted by the Qumran community, not merely on random man-made rules.

The phrase itself means deeds required by the law.
The real question is whether Paul is condemning only sectarian boundary markers or all attempts to be justified through law-keeping.

In Galatians and Romans, Paul does not contrast man-made traditions with faith.
He contrasts justification by faith with justification through works of the law.
If "works of the law" referred only to man-made rules, Paul's argument loses much of its force, since no one was defending salvation by Pharisaic traditions alone.

4QMMT may help us understand the Jewish background of the phrase, but it does not prove that Paul's target was merely man-made regulations rather than reliance on law-keeping for righteousness before God.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

Do we make void the Law by Faith, forbid, yea, we establish the Law Romans 3:31

I shamar (guard, put a hedge around all of the Torah from the least to greatest commandments) and Keep that which is applicable to me while there isn't a temple.

The Doers of the Law are Justified

By the works of the Law no one is Justified


The New Covenant, YHWH writes His Torah upon our heart and mind so that we can keep it, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

The Doers keep it because of the work of YHWH changing their inclination, and putting His Instructions in them.

He who began a good work will complete it

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Two concepts, keeping the works of the law will not save you, The Law purpose was to show us our sin.

Paul kept the Torah, He delighted in it Romans 7:22

 

[OMC]

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

Do we make void the Law by Faith, forbid, yea, we establish the Law Romans 3:31

I shamar (guard, put a hedge around all of the Torah from the least to greatest commandments) and Keep that which is applicable to me while there isn't a temple.

The Doers of the Law are Justified

By the works of the Law no one is Justified


The New Covenant, YHWH writes His Torah upon our heart and mind so that we can keep it, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

The Doers keep it because of the work of YHWH changing their inclination, and putting His Instructions in them.

He who began a good work will complete it

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Two concepts, keeping the works of the law will not save you, The Law purpose was to show us our sin.

Paul kept the Torah, He delighted in it Romans 7:22

I actually agree with much of that.

Paul delighted in the law of God (Rom. 7:22), upheld the law (Rom. 3:31), and taught that God's righteous requirements are fulfilled in those who walk by the Spirit (Rom. 8:4).
The new covenant results in changed hearts that desire to obey God.

The distinction Paul makes is not between obedience and disobedience, but between justification by faith and justification by law-keeping.

Romans 2:13 states the principle that the doers of the law are justified.
Romans 3 then explains the problem: no one has actually kept the law perfectly, "for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23).
Therefore, "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified" (Rom. 3:20).

So yes, the justified person becomes a doer of God's will because God has changed his heart.
But Paul never says we are declared righteous because of our Torah observance.
He says we are justified by faith apart from works, and that faith then produces the obedience that the law itself pointed toward.

In short: obedience is the fruit of justification, not the basis of justification.

 

[Yissachar]

I actually agree with much of that.

Paul delighted in the law of God (Rom. 7:22), upheld the law (Rom. 3:31), and taught that God's righteous requirements are fulfilled in those who walk by the Spirit (Rom. 8:4).
The new covenant results in changed hearts that desire to obey God.

The distinction Paul makes is not between obedience and disobedience, but between justification by faith and justification by law-keeping.

Romans 2:13 states the principle that the doers of the law are justified.
Romans 3 then explains the problem: no one has actually kept the law perfectly, "for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23).
Therefore, "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified" (Rom. 3:20).

So yes, the justified person becomes a doer of God's will because God has changed his heart.
But Paul never says we are declared righteous because of our Torah observance.
He says we are justified by faith apart from works, and that faith then produces the obedience that the law itself pointed toward.

In short: obedience is the fruit of justification, not the basis of justification.

What Paul says here

Romans 9

31​	But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32​	Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

I do not keep the Torah in order to be saved, mission impossible

I keep it because I am saved and Believe the promise that YHWH will do what He said, By Faith.

 

[OMC]

What Paul says here

Romans 9

31​	But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32​	Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

I do not keep the Torah in order to be saved, mission impossible

I keep it because I am saved and Believe the promise that YHWH will do what He said, By Faith.

Then we are much closer than you may think.
Romans 9:31-32 is exactly Paul's point: Israel failed because they pursued righteousness as though it were by works, rather than by faith.
If you are saying, "I do not keep Torah to be saved; I keep it because I am saved and trust God's promise," then you are not arguing for justification by works.
My concern arises only when obedience becomes part of the ground of justification rather than the fruit of it.
We both agree no one is saved by Torah observance.
We both agree God's Spirit changes the believer's heart.
We both agree faith produces obedience.
Therefore the question is not whether believers should obey God, but whether that obedience contributes to our justification before God.
Paul consistently answers that justification is by faith, while obedience follows as the evidence and result of that faith.
Romans 9:32 supports that distinction rather than overturning it.

 

[Roger316]

Where in the text does it explicitly state it is talking about the sabbath of the 4th commandment?

The text says "Sabbath Day"

 

[Roger316]

Just about every single one of you guys think the 7th day sabbath of the 4th commandment has been abolished.
Or transformed into something else that the command actually does not say.

The Weekly Sabbath hasn't been abolished. It still applies to Israel.

 

[Yissachar]

Then we are much closer than you may think.
Romans 9:31-32 is exactly Paul's point: Israel failed because they pursued righteousness as though it were by works, rather than by faith.
If you are saying, "I do not keep Torah to be saved; I keep it because I am saved and trust God's promise," then you are not arguing for justification by works.
My concern arises only when obedience becomes part of the ground of justification rather than the fruit of it.
We both agree no one is saved by Torah observance.
We both agree God's Spirit changes the believer's heart.
We both agree faith produces obedience.
Therefore the question is not whether believers should obey God, but whether that obedience contributes to our justification before God.
Paul consistently answers that justification is by faith, while obedience follows as the evidence and result of that faith.
Romans 9:32 supports that distinction rather than overturning it.

I concur

 

[Davidstarr]

Sunday did not merely "replace" Saturday as a rigid calendar swap; rather, the weekly Sabbath principle was fulfilled and transitioned to the Lords Day (Sunday) in honor of Christ's resurrection. There are two parts to the Fourth Commandment, there's a moral element and a ceremonial/shadow element.

The Moral/Permanent Element is the 1-in-7 rhythm of work and holy rest, established at creation (Genesis 2) before the Mosaic covenant, is a permanent moral law for all humanity.

The Ceremonial/Temporary Element is the strict observance specifically on the seventh day (Saturday), alongside the specific civil and penal codes given to ancient Israel as a national covenant sign, belonged to the Old Covenant administration.

Just as the old Sabbath commemorated the completion of the first creation, Sunday celebrates the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the "first day of the week"—inaugurating the new creation.

The New Testament shows the early Christian church regularly gathering for worship, breaking bread, and collecting offerings on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2), referred to in Revelation 1:10 as the "Lord's Day.

Colossians 2:16–17 teaches that Old Testament festival days and sabbaths were a "shadow" whose substance belongs to Christ. In Christ, believers enter an ultimate spiritual rest and express that through weekly corporate worship and physical rest on the first day.

There is no biblical evidence that the lord's day is the 1st day of the week.
Nothing to indicate Jesus' resurection has supplanted (or changed) the 4th commandment.

 

[Roger316]

There is no biblical evidence that the lord's day is the 1st day of the week.
Nothing to indicate Jesus' resurection has supplanted (or changed) the 4th commandment.

Are you sure? Take another look.