Shall we sin that grace may abound?
- Thread starter wattie
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We get to reject His Word?
I'll pass on that deal and will refrain from rejecting His Word.
That what all the churches teach these days.
They don't want to offend anybody because they need people's money so that have to teach eternal security.
If they didn't their membership and offers would go way down and they can'[t have that.
Yes, accepting all the Lord says in His Word is definitely the way to go.
Can you answer a simple thing ? Is Paul correct about what he’s saying here ?
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11 NIV
I’m not really sure your argument is it that this isn’t about “ salvation “
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. “
or this is somehow about earthly correction and everyone’s saved regardless of thier actions ?
““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
John 5:28-29 NIV
I’m not too sure those who did evil are gonna be “ saved “ but those who did good seem like they are rising up to life
your whole argument is it can’t be based on what we do . But that’s what it repeatedly says. I’m not really sure your point or argument other than “ you can’t lose salvation “ but that’s really missing what I’m saying
Mmhm you didn’t read what I said though . You just misquoted a line lol after you plucked it from what I was saying hahaha nice one
I addressed the part of what you said that needed to be addressed to make the point that virtually all churches are teaching false doctrine such as it matters not how a person lives after they get saved.
Yeah I get you now . And correct some teach that others look at moses words rathe than Jesus words there’s an extreme at both ends some still “wieght down others with heavy burdens that they themselves don’t carry and aren’t required of anyone
But a question for you . you know how people are saying “ after you get saved “ what do you suppose they actually mean by “ getting saved “ ?
Yeah what exactly do you mean by born again though ? And is that what salvation is ? Here’s why I asked
“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many;
and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
Hebrews 9:28 NIV
Of course I know about “ being born of the spirit “ I’m just wondering why salvation is spoken of as something we possess already ?
see the point is “ I can’t lose the salvation i already possess “ v “ I better start learning to live right while I wait for the lord to return with salvation “
see grace that saves does that part
“For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”
Titus 2:11-15 NIV
Not sure what I’m saying will make sense but if salvation is something we’re waiting for in hope and expectation v it’s something we already possess . Seems like where a lot of the issue comes from with arguing about this matter of “ losing salvation “
If simply receiving the Holy Ghost meant your already saved them why are we warned about falling away after we receive the spirit ?
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
so someone can share in the Holy Ghost and then later fall away and be lost ? Does this person already possess this salvation ?
should we consider that salvation is his promise to us when he returns ? And so we need to actually hear what he said about the judgment part ?
Wrath and anger for believers doesn't mean sending them to hell when they die.
John repeatedly states a believer posseses eternal life. They dont have to wait till they die to know the have it.
So, the opposite of John 5 verses..i.e..dont do good and be condenmed to hell is not supported by other scriptures.
Eternal life is for those who by patience etc.. gain immortality ..but it doesn't say don't be patient etc and you are condemned to hell..but it does that you will experience the wrath of anger and discipline.
Compare with John 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40 Romans 5:8, Ephesians 2:8-9.
Enough said.
They did, but later turned away from the Lord which is denying Him.
You have remember that God gave man free will and if a saved person turns away, He cannot for them to stay
2 Timothy 2:12 - If we deny Him, He also will deny us
Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Then you'll have to admit that you do not believe everything the Lord says in His Word then:
Matthew 13:41,42 - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Psalms 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity
John 15:1-2 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit
2 Corinthians 11:2-3 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Yes we have salvation now but some don't bare fruit and are removed by the father
Others are workers of iniquity who are removed.
John 15:1-2 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit
Matthew 13:41,42 - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
People that are serious about their relationship with the Lord accept all that He has to say in His Word.
They don't cherry pick the scripture and reject the ones the tares tell them to reject.
In the end the Lord decides who is allowed to remain in His Kingdom and who gets kicked out due to not being fruitful and due to being workers of iniquity
The reformed followers are going to be in trouble sin they apparently can't stop sinning. They keep working iniquity so according to the Lord this is the kind of person that will in the end be removed from His Kingdom.
“They did, but later turned away from the Lord which is denying Him.
You have remember that God gave man free will and if a saved person turns away, He cannot for them to stay”
I agree with the verses and everything the point I’m not really seeing is
they “ already possessed salvation but then they lost the salvation they already had ? “
“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many;
and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
Hebrews 9:28 NIV
Seems (to me ) like it’s something we’re waiting for in faith and need to walk in and pursue in the fear of God believing that Christ will come with when he returns. Seems like a promise he made to those who believe the gospel , persevere in faith.
But it begins hearing the promises …
“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Mark 16:15-16 NIV
““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out
—those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
John 5:28-29 NIV
I’m not sure salvation is a possession we already have which to me sort of makes whether we can “lose the salvation we already have a circular argument . “ my view is Jesus promised the faithful in him to save them from this world and it’s fiery end because of sin ……for a better place to come without sin
My view is that the end of our faith is salvation but the beginning is hearing the promise for it. And in between we just need to go to Jesus and the gospel and actually listen to what he was teaching believers to believe and do ……
But it’s often hard for people to let go of Moses and embrace Jesus doctrine.
For instance who can actually claim to be “ sinless and perfect “ when you actually listen to what he’s teaching ?
““But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.””
Luke 6:27-38, 46-49 NIV
the people who exemplify this perfectly have my utmost respect and kudos they are better men and women than I but …… Christian’s are meant to hear and accept this doctrine faithfully and press into it because it has this effect ( all of his doctrine not only this example )
“That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught by him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
to be made new in the attitude of your minds; ( this happens when we listen to the lords word in the gospel like above there ) and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.”
Ephesians 4:20-24 NIV
Jesus doctrine is about bringing sinful hearts and minds back to God teaching them how men are meant to understand God . To reveal man’s true relationship with him and his deep love and care for all of us who he created. He can’t be known in tbe ot but in the gospel God is fully revealed to us in the flesh and blood of man.
Notice he’s not hidden behind fire and defending thunders and trumpets but rather he was a humble servant of God and the people. Selfless , giving his own life to save them and redeem them from the powers of darkness in the world leading them astray.
The gospel is the most important information we can ever know chrirtians should know his doctrine by heart prayerfully considering and applying it
because that’s “eternal security “ even when you fail and get off course his doctrine provides atonement and forgivness through confession and repentance . It’s hard to get people to really focus on what Jesus the lord said when he came to earth to speak the words of the everlasting God but that’s where our minds and hearts need to be
So he can change our minds and hearts from deception and corruption to gods truth eternal
““You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.””
John 18:37 NIV
Only some people begin hearing what Jesus taught and all the sudden it’s not what they thought and want to hear …..
So they need to create other doctrines to replace and explain his away
“Wrath and anger for believers doesn't mean sending them to hell when they die.“
right …… one group is raised to life the other to be condemned. One group is given eternal life the other group receives wrath and anger the day of gods righteous judgement …… and it certainly isn’t about “ losing anyone’s salvation “
……..…..I digress and you can have the last word because clearly ….this has nothing to do with “ salvation “ come the day of judgement
“Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
Romans 2:4-8 NIV
clearly …… this bears no weight on the subject.
“But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 NIV
It’s good that you trust that the lords promise to save believers will come to pass . I do think it’s a mistake to ignore the warnings throughout regarding our behavior but most importantly if we could discuss and focus on what Jesus taught in the gospel and not so much the law of sin and death ….. maybe your idea of what I’m even saying would change
“Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus.”
Luke 15:1 NIV
“While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples.”
Matthew 9:10 NIV
I think a discussion about the term “ saved “ would be valuable in a different forum . Isralites were saved presently from thier sins under the old covenant like for instance zacceus the sinner or the sinful woman who were Jesus feet with her tears . “ thy faith has saved thee go in peace “
But the new covenant promise is salvation for those who continue in faith so i certainly understand “ speaking as if we’re saved in faith calling what is not as though it we’re “ but salvation itself seems to be something Jesus promised to bring upon his return
Anyways thanks for the conversation and I’m sorry for the disorganization haven’t felt real clear lately
“Then you'll have to admit that you do not believe everything the Lord says in His Word then:”
things like this make me not want to even interact with people.
“Yes we have salvation now but some don't bare fruit and are removed by the father. Others are workers of iniquity who are removed.
“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many;
and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
Hebrews 9:28 NIV
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 NIV
“And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.”
Romans 13:11 NIV
“When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.””
Luke 21:28 NIV
seems like the doctrine is designed to keep us pressing forward into salvation when he returns like it’s something we are approaching ……faithfully waiting for
“This is what the Lord says: “Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.”
Isaiah 56:1 NIV
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”
2 Peter 3:10-13 NIV
We shall be saved according to him we do have a wonderful and faithful promise of we continue in faith a promise that’s surely coming