Obedience REQUIRED

[ScooterJackson]

your individual replies fail to address the literal definitions of the text

That's what people say when they don't understand God's Word having been indoctrinated to follow fake gospel teachings such as eternal security as they have been trained to not accept the whole counsel of God.

You speak of obedience then continually bear false witness against others.

The only ones baring false witness are the ones rejecting portions of scripture in favor of what the false teachers indoctrinated them to believe which has led them to be blinded from the Truth of God's Word.

There's a log in your eye that you should be more concerned about.

That's what the false teachers claim when they run across someone who does not believe their false doctrine.

 

[ScooterJackson]

who said we can lose salvation?

The Lord God Almighty in His Word, that's Who.

 

[NightTwister]

That's what people say when they don't understand God's Word having been indoctrinated to follow fake gospel teachings such as eternal security as they have been trained to not accept the whole counsel of God.



The only ones baring false witness are the ones rejecting portions of scripture in favor of what the false teachers indoctrinated them to believe which has led them to be blinded from the Truth of God's Word.



That's what the false teachers claim when they run across someone who does not believe their false doctrine.

That's not what bearing false witness against your neighbor is.

 

[ScooterJackson]

That's not what bearing false witness against your neighbor is.

People believing false doctrine accuse others of lying about them when someone tries to correct them.
I haven't lied about anybody as you are lying about right now. I have however tried to correct false doctrine.
Twisting in the night long?

 

[OMC]

The Lord God Almighty in His Word, that's Who.

The real debate is not whether anyone has taught the possibility of losing salvation.
Many Christians historically have.
The debate is whether the biblical warnings describe genuine believers losing salvation or people who were never truly saved in the first place.
Many groups and theologians have taught that a person can forfeit, abandon, or lose salvation through unbelief, apostasy, or persistent rebellion. Examples include:
Arminius and many later Arminian churches.
Methodists (following John Wesley).
Many Pentecostal and Holiness groups.
The Catholic Church.
The Eastern Orthodox Church.

On the other side, those holding to eternal security or perseverance of the saints argue that a truly saved person cannot ultimately be lost. This view is common among:
Many Baptists ("once saved, always saved").
Reformed/Calvinist churches (though they often phrase it as perseverance rather than once-saved-always-saved).

If you ask, "Who in Scripture said a believer can be lost?", the debate usually centers on passages such as Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-29, John 15:1-6, and 2 Peter 2:20-22. Those who believe salvation can be lost point to these texts.
Those who believe salvation is secure interpret those passages differently and appeal to texts such as John 10:28-29, Romans 8:29-39, and Philippians 1:6.

 

[rogerg]

That's what people say when they don't understand God's Word having been indoctrinated to follow fake gospel teachings such as eternal security as they have been trained to not accept the whole counsel of God.

Scooterjackson, you do not realize that throughout Scripture Jesus is clearly declared to be THE Savior. The entire gospel has been built upon His performance as Savior and the fact that man is not. It is a Savior alone who actually saves. If salvation depends on human willpower to maintain it and keep from falling, then Christ is not the Savior, and man therefore must save himself completely with nothing between those two extremes. Based upon your statements, however, you seem to not believe that He is the Savior. So, it is you who disagrees with Scripture and you who is not accepting the whole council of God, not me.

 

[NightTwister]

People believing false doctrine accuse others of lying about them when someone tries to correct them.
I haven't lied about anybody as you are lying about right now. I have however tried to correct false doctrine.
Twisting in the night long?

And yet you have lied about others. Stick to what you believe instead of attributing beliefs and actions to others.

 

[PastMyPrime]

It amazes me the number of people who believe they can work their way to
Heaven by doing certain things and refraining from doing certain things. They will not admit they believe in works for salvation., but that is what they believe.
I came to the conclusion many years ago that most will die in their unbelief and will be among those God says, "I never knew you".
I am a sinner who confessed my sin and that I am unworthy of Heaven and there is nothing I can do to earn God's forgiveness.
I place my faith in Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God by His grace to forgive me and to keep me.
I will continue to pray that those who believe they can work their way to Heaven will see the truth before it is too late.

I have nothing more to say on this subject.

 

[Freed18]

Amazinggrace, your new verses do not show that man is under a conditional contract to maintain his salvation. You are confusing the spiritual standpoint with the human standpoint. Consider the actual words of the verses.
First, you quote Hebrews 10:7 where it says, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God." You try to use this to say that man must perform to stay saved. But that verse is a direct quote from Psalm 40:7–8, which is a messianic prophecy speaking exclusively about Jesus Christ, not creature performance. If you look three verses down at Hebrews 10:10, the text clearly explains the result of His perfect work: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Salvation was completely finished by Christ's obedience alone, completely bypassing human willpower.
Second, you quote Matthew 6:10 about God's will being done on earth. When a child of God prays for the Father's will to be done, they are acknowledging that the Father is the sovereign ruler who executes His own pleasure. It does not mean man is a partner who must perform to keep himself inside the family.
Third, from a spiritual standpoint, the elect family (consisting of those people who in eternity past individually were always God's children - who were never not His children) was permanently preserved in Christ before time ever began, as Jude 1:1, John 15:16 and Gal 4:1-6 (among other verses), clearly establish. From a human standpoint on earth, an elect child grows in the knowledge of that grace through edification and scripture. Daily obedience is simply the earthly fruit of a relationship that is already secure. It is not the cause of it.

I liked your last sentence.
So much for the disobedient; they will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Gideon300]

who said we can lose salvation?

we die and are judged and enter into eternal salvation! at that point once saved? always saved!
Amen?


Romans 8:1 does not say what the KJV does. This part is an addition put in by the translators. ".....who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

False doctrine is often the result of cherry picking scripture to suit your pet beliefs. Why don't you quote this?

Romans 8:29 & 30

"....For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.…"

I can say rightly that Christ is my brother, I am justified and I am glorified. Do you know what justified means? It means that I am not condemned. And that has nothing to do with me. It is all mine in Christ, a gift, not a work.

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Eternal life is just that, eternal. The born again do not face the great white throne judgement. They face the "bema", which is where awards were handed out to athletes and war heroes. Some will have little or no reward. Others will be greatly rewarded.

Christians need to know who they are in Christ and who He is in us. This is not condoning sin. This is revealing to believers how they can overcome and live in a way that pleases God.​

If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Galatians 2:20

 

[Gideon300]

Amazinggrace, your new verses do not show that man is under a conditional contract to maintain his salvation. You are confusing the spiritual standpoint with the human standpoint. Consider the actual words of the verses.
First, you quote Hebrews 10:7 where it says, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God." You try to use this to say that man must perform to stay saved. But that verse is a direct quote from Psalm 40:7–8, which is a messianic prophecy speaking exclusively about Jesus Christ, not creature performance. If you look three verses down at Hebrews 10:10, the text clearly explains the result of His perfect work: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Salvation was completely finished by Christ's obedience alone, completely bypassing human willpower.
Second, you quote Matthew 6:10 about God's will being done on earth. When a child of God prays for the Father's will to be done, they are acknowledging that the Father is the sovereign ruler who executes His own pleasure. It does not mean man is a partner who must perform to keep himself inside the family.
Third, from a spiritual standpoint, the elect family (consisting of those people who in eternity past individually were always God's children - who were never not His children) was permanently preserved in Christ before time ever began, as Jude 1:1, John 15:16 and Gal 4:1-6 (among other verses), clearly establish. From a human standpoint on earth, an elect child grows in the knowledge of that grace through edification and scripture. Daily obedience is simply the earthly fruit of a relationship that is already secure. It is not the cause of it.

Grace is not so amazing if it depends on us.

 

[Freed18]

Scooterjackson, you do not realize that throughout Scripture Jesus is clearly declared to be THE Savior. The entire gospel has been built upon His performance as Savior and the fact that man is not. It is a Savior alone who actually saves. If salvation depends on human willpower to maintain it and keep from falling, then Christ is not the Savior, and man therefore must save himself completely with nothing between those two extremes. Based upon your statements, however, you seem to not believe that He is the Savior. So, it is you who disagrees with Scripture and you who is not accepting the whole council of God, not me.

There is one thing beteen those extremes...Christ in me, the hope of Glory.
Christ through me, does the maintaining.
Without Christ, I would be just as evil as I was before my rebirth from my Father's seed.

 

[Freed18]

Grace is not so amazing if it depends on us.

Grace is even more amazing, when it works through us.

 

[NightTwister]

Grace is even more amazing, when it works through us.

Who is doing the working?

 

[ScooterJackson]

The debate is whether the biblical warnings describe genuine believers losing salvation

There's no debate about this for those who actually believe all of what the Lord says in His Word.

Scooterjackson, you do not realize that throughout Scripture Jesus is clearly declared to be THE Savior.

I knew that before you did. What you are apparently unaware of is the fact that God created man in His own image, meaning man not only has free will like God does, but man also reaps what he sows like God does - Gal 6

If man chooses to turn away from the Lord after having been born again, the Lord must let them go because He cannot violate man's free will since He is the One Who decided to give man free will in the first place.

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

John 15:2 - Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

1 Timothy 4:1,2 - Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

Ezekiel 33:12-13 - Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.

 

[ScooterJackson]

It amazes me the number of people who believe they can work their way to
Heaven by doing certain things and refraining from doing certain things.

What's actually amazing is how so many don't know the Lord has called them to stop living in agreement with the devil and called them to instead to live in agreement with the Lord (Acts 26:18). They don't know the Lord very well is their problem and they don't love Him enough to stop walking after the flesh in agreement with the devil.

Romans 8:6 - to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

Carnal minded = living in agreement with the devil.
Spirit minded = living in agreement with the Lord.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Lord has literally ORDAINED His people to walk in good works and has provided access to the Holy Spirit and His Word to empower His people to do so. They have no excuse.

Romans 8:13 - if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

It amazes me the number of people who believe they can work their way to
Heaven by doing certain things and refraining from doing certain things. They will not admit they believe in works for salvation., but that is what they believe.
I came to the conclusion many years ago that most will die in their unbelief and will be among those God says, "I never knew you".
I am a sinner who confessed my sin and that I am unworthy of Heaven and there is nothing I can do to earn God's forgiveness.
I place my faith in Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God by His grace to forgive me and to keep me.
I will continue to pray that those who believe they can work their way to Heaven will see the truth before it is too late.

I have nothing more to say on this subject.

What if they're NOT earning their salvation but are already saved and just obeying God and resisting sin because the Holy Spirit has been causing them to do those things?

You can't accuse ALL who obey God and resist sin as working for their salvation. It may actually be the Holy Spirit doing His work in changing that person to Christlikeness.

 

[ScooterJackson]

What if they're NOT earning their salvation but are already saved and just obeying God and resisting sin because the Holy Spirit has been causing them to do those things?

You can't accuse ALL who obey God and resist sin as working for their salvation. It may actually be the Holy Spirit doing His work in changing that person to Christlikeness.

Nope, they'll insist they are trying to be good enough to earn their salvation.
These people are like a broken record. They really flip out at these passages:

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:22-24 - put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14 - put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:10 - And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

2 Corinthians 6:17 - come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Nope, they'll insist they are trying to be good enough to earn their salvation.
These people are like a broken record. They really flip out at these passages:

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:22-24 - put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14 - put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:10 - And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

2 Corinthians 6:17 - come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Who are you referring to? The people accusing Christians of obeying God and resisting sin to earn their salvation? Or the Christians who are already saved and obeying God and resisting sin because the Holy Spirit causes them to?

 

[ScooterJackson]

Who are you referring to? The people accusing Christians of obeying God and resisting sin to earn their salvation? Or the Christians who are already saved and obeying God and resisting sin because the Holy Spirit causes them to?

The reformers falsely claim those who turn away from their sin are doing to to try and earn their salvation.
They believe they can never ever cease from sin, and as such they try to get everyone to walk in sin with them.